11.13.08

[Lissa]

You're talking in MMO generalities about a game that is ten times as successful as its nearest competitor. Whatever may be generally true about MMOs, you can be pretty sure WoW isn't typical.

-Jester

Not really, Lineage 1 was in this position once and look what happened with it. It had 3 million subscribers at it's height, the nearest was 500k to 600k (EQ). As the techonology moves forward, a MMO will lose it's subscribers as people move on to the next game with better technology.

[Concillian]

Not really, Lineage 1 was in this position once and look what happened with it.

Yeah, they're all the way down to 1 million subscribers after 10 years.

This means if WoW follows the same trend, it will peak next year around 11-12mil, then it'll end up all the way down to 4 million subs where it will still be incredibly profitable.

[Artega]

No, they haven't.

The presence of the naga have not been properly explained; they are simply "there". They appear in WC3.

The biggest protagonist during WC3 has made exactly one appearance in WoW; Malfurion Stormrage. He is the direct link to the Emerald Dream.

Furion is trapped in stasis inside the Emerald Nightmare, last I heard.

And I think Arthas was the lead role in the overall War3 storyline... he certainly changed more things than Furion did, especially when you consider what he did under the thrall of Ner'zhul. Wiped out Quel'thalas (thus starting the events that lead to the Blood Elves), eliminated Uther and the Knights of the Silver Hand, obliterated the human kingdom of Lordaeron, corrupted most of the Night Elf lands, sacrificed Muradin to gain power in the form of Frostmourne (and also betrayed his own soldiers by convincing them that the ogre and troll mercenaries he hired were the reason their ships were destroyed, which is basically betraying two sets of people at the same time), and by making the Scourge more powerful and more autonomous, heavily influenced the corruption, exile, and (in WoW time) death of Illidan. About the only people he didn't screw over were Thrall's group.

But it's been a while since I played through War3.

[Artega]

I have trouble seeing a World of Starcraft, for the same reasons I don't think the proposed Warhammer 40,000 MMO that Vigil is working on will pan out.

In both War40k and SC, guns and other forms of ranged weaponry are the norm, while melee combat is more of an exception (dedicated melee units exist in both games and all infantry in the War40k games have the option of engaging in melee, but the vast majority of infantry and vehicular combat is done at range.) I don't see an easy method of balancing it out so that melee units aren't either overpowered or underpowered. Going from Dawn of War, if a melee squad gets in range of a ranged squad (like, say, a squad of Khorne Berzerkers starts mixing it up with a squad of Tactical Marines), the ranged squad is going to be ripped apart. But wouldn't that be unfair in an MMO setting? Keep away or die? What about for the melee? It'd be like trying to play a Warrior in WoW without use of Charge, Intercept, or Intervene - if you start out in range, you might be okay, but you're screwed otherwise.

Then, you also have to consider how upgrades would work, especially in terms of gear. Chaos Marines and Space Marines are, far and large, heavy infantry. With the exception of certain units (like Scout Marines and Cultists), they wear power armor, use big guns and and chainswords, and are generally supposed to look big and tough. It wouldn't fit if you started out wearing a t-shirt and jeans with an air rifle, would it? So how are you supposed to get upgrades as far as gear goes? You already look badass, and appearance is 90% of the reason to get new gear - every person that grinds gear right now in WoW knows that, so don't try and tell me it's not the reason you do it.

Finally, as far as ranged combat goes... stat-driven shooters suck. I have yet to play any shooter that bases its accuracy on roleplaying stats that didn't suck. Maybe Fallout 3 will buck the trend, but I'll probably play a melee role in that game, too, just like I did with the first two. If you're going to shoot at people using a first-person perspective, your accuracy should be reliant on your aim and ability to control the weapon's recoil... not stats. If you wanted to play it like Metroid Prime, where you lock on to a target, then I wouldn't have any issues with it being stat-driven, because then that'd probably be really fun. Not that Metroid Prime was stat-driven, but I thought the lock-on system was a superb way of allowing people with slow reflexes (further complicated by the fact that gamepads are terrible for shooters) to enjoy a first-person shooter while still rewarding those with good reflexes.

[Taelas]

Furion is trapped in stasis inside the Emerald Nightmare, last I heard.

The Emerald Dream is the Emerald Nightmare.

And I think Arthas was the lead role in the overall War3 storyline... he certainly changed more things than Furion did, especially when you consider what he did under the thrall of Ner'zhul. Wiped out Quel'thalas (thus starting the events that lead to the Blood Elves), eliminated Uther and the Knights of the Silver Hand, obliterated the human kingdom of Lordaeron, corrupted most of the Night Elf lands, sacrificed Muradin to gain power in the form of Frostmourne (and also betrayed his own soldiers by convincing them that the ogre and troll mercenaries he hired were the reason their ships were destroyed, which is basically betraying two sets of people at the same time), and by making the Scourge more powerful and more autonomous, heavily influenced the corruption, exile, and (in WoW time) death of Illidan. About the only people he didn't screw over were Thrall's group.

I'm not talking about what character had the biggest influence. I mean protagonist as in "hero", which Arthas certainly is not.

[Lissa]

I'm not talking about what character had the biggest influence. I mean protagonist as in "hero", which Arthas certainly is not.

Heroes aren't closure, it is the defeat of the enemies of the heroes that bring closure. Look at all the literary works out there. Does what the heroes do after the enemy is defeat make for an interesting story line? No. How boring of a book would the years that pass between the scourging of the Shire and Bilbo and Frodo leaving with the Elves? How interesting of a story would that be? How interesting do you think the domestic lives of Leia and Han would be after the Empire is defeated with Leia doing diplomatic things and Han just hanging around being the good husband? You see why following the heroes is boring and doesn't lead to any real closure with the villians defeated?

[--Pete]

Hi,

. . . and Han just hanging around being the good husband? . . .

Now there would be a story that would cross from science fiction (OK, OK, space opera) to fantasy. :whistling:

--Pete

[Artega]

The Emerald Dream is the Emerald Nightmare.
I'm not talking about what character had the biggest influence. I mean protagonist as in "hero", which Arthas certainly is not.

No, instead he's the primary villain from War3. More than anyone from the Legion or anywhere else. His role is larger than anyone else's. Heroes are boring - villains aren't.

And the Emerald Dream became the Emerald Nightmare through some circumstance(s) we aren't aware of. It used to be what druids and the green dragonflight went into in order to meditate or go into stasis or something of that nature... now it's been corrupted, causing the green dragons to go insane/go berserk, and lock the druids into it, Furion included.

I doubt you could make a full expansion out of the Emerald Nightmare on its own, but you could probably make a sizable content patch, a la Quel'Danas+Sunwell, using it.

[Taelas]

Heroes aren't closure, it is the defeat of the enemies of the heroes that bring closure. Look at all the literary works out there. Does what the heroes do after the enemy is defeat make for an interesting story line? No. How boring of a book would the years that pass between the scourging of the Shire and Bilbo and Frodo leaving with the Elves? How interesting of a story would that be? How interesting do you think the domestic lives of Leia and Han would be after the Empire is defeated with Leia doing diplomatic things and Han just hanging around being the good husband? You see why following the heroes is boring and doesn't lead to any real closure with the villians defeated?

When have I ever said we should follow the heroes once their story is concluded?

Malfurion's story ISN'T concluded, and as he was the biggest hero in WC3.

No, instead he's the primary villain from War3. More than anyone from the Legion or anywhere else. His role is larger than anyone else's. Heroes are boring - villains aren't.

What is your point?

Heroes are not boring as long as they are active, and Malfurion is.

[Artega]

Point being that heroes are often more static than villains are, since their motivation is nearly always either to fight a specific villain, or fight for "the greater good."

What will Furion fight, now that Illidan, Vashj, Kael, and even Kil'Jaeden are dead? Arthas will eventually be dead as a result of WotLK. Kel'thuzad and all his generals, too.

Sargeras died a long time ago, I think - pretty sure one of the campaign missions in War2 had you looking for his tomb.

Mannoroth is dead by Grom Hellscream's hand. Magtheridon is also dead.

Who is left to fight? They could magic up some random super bad villain, but there's no way he or she could have a decent backstory. All of the trails that War3 started are gonna be done by the end of WotLK's cycle - at least as far as villains go, anyway.

What's left? Well, the Horde and Alliance have never been on good terms, so it's bound to blow up again at some point. You could still have Thrall and Jaina (together?) existing as examples of how the two different factions could be. Hell, we know half-orcs are possible.

I don't see much in the way of plot advancement happening in WoW anymore. I think it'll be another Warcraft strategy game, if anything.

[Quark]

I think you guys need to stop speculating without seeing what happens in WotLK. Just the amount of supposition that's been wrong in the past 4 posts is pretty bad. The phasing technology allows for a more personalized story advancement then we've seen in the past.

Play to 80, do your quests, then come back to this theme.

[NiteFox]

Sargeras died a long time ago, I think - pretty sure one of the campaign missions in War2 had you looking for his tomb.

We-ell... Pedantically (Sorry Quark), Sargeras' titan body is dead. Dead in the ground and buried at the bottom of the ocean. He was royally pwnt by Aegwynn, for about 100,000,000,000 Honor points.

Then Aegwynn got her mack on with Aran, and out pops Sar- I mean Medivh.

Being dead is no disadvantage to influencing the WarCraft story or lore. It makes things merely difficult, not impossible:P

[Taelas]

I haven't supposed anything.<_<

As for what happened to Sargeras, it's actually debatable. There's the possibility that what Aegwynn destroyed was merely an avatar of Sargeras that only held a portion of his spirit. Regardless of what happened, his spirit is still around in the Twisting Nether, but he's not capable of returning to Azeroth according to Word of God.

[Artega]

I think you guys need to stop speculating without seeing what happens in WotLK. Just the amount of supposition that's been wrong in the past 4 posts is pretty bad. The phasing technology allows for a more personalized story advancement then we've seen in the past.

Play to 80, do your quests, then come back to this theme.

How is it wrong? Do you have proof otherwise? I imagine we'd all enjoy it if you'd share it - if you have it, that is - rather than cop a "holier than thou" attitude.

[Chesspiece_face]

WoWHead has changed it's background, in an official Blizzard ad, to announce the release date of the Wrath. Plan that vacation time now!

Blizzard ads popping up all over for WotLK now say:

"On November 13th
your definition of epic
will be shattered."

Translation: "Yo gear is bitta!"

[Zippyy]

:(

[Quark]

How is it wrong? Do you have proof otherwise? I imagine we'd all enjoy it if you'd share it - if you have it, that is - rather than cop a "holier than thou" attitude.

Some people don't appreciate spoilers.

[Artega]

Some people don't appreciate spoilers.

Then PM it to me. I've seen posts about a major plot/storyline thing involving Thrall, but I haven't followed the links because the keyloggers have been getting more and more clever lately.