Isn't it ironic that

[Tris]

Dubya, of the party of "Fiscal responsibility" is not only spending us to death with A and I, but is now proposing that the US govt spend a metric crap ton of money on bailing out big finance. I wonder how much stake he or tricky dicky has in the outcome. It's just like Naples here, you see the AMG S-65 pull up and mommy and daddy demand that the county pay for care and maintenance of junior who is only capable of drooling on himself and wetting himself. However, mommy and daddy are 100% against funding anything that helps anything else:P Mommy and daddy are also 100% against spending their own money to care for the drooling, peeing idiot. There's a name for mommy and daddy... it's "Conservatives":) Let's hear it for *BIG* govt.

What ever happened to the Republican party actually being about responsibility, both govt and personal? Maybe the Japanese have it right, CEO screws up and kills himself.

And, how pray tell do the neo-republican plan to pay for the thought police that they seem to want running around. BTW, it's ok for them to police your thoughts, but not ok for you to police them:P We want "small" govt, but want to make sure that you don't have an abortion, that you go to church regularly, that we spy on the mosques, and that we can harass you at the airport if we think you're Ichbar Mohammed (yes, that means you even if you are an Irishman with red hair and freckles:P) ... now where are you hiding that explosive camel?

Assuming all this goes through, the govt will be the proud owner of USDA grade crap debt and quantities requiring mining machinery to clear out.

Well, perhaps the most important question is can the U.s. survive the last few months of Dubya?:P

[--Pete]

Hi,

Well, perhaps the most important question is can the U.s. survive the last few months of Dubya?:P

No. It'll implode and join Atlantis at the bottom of the ocean, leaving the Northwest passage between Canada and Mexico. Get the mellow outa your drama, please.

--Pete

[Jester]

Hi,
No. It'll implode and join Atlantis at the bottom of the ocean, leaving the Northwest passage between Canada and Mexico. Get the mellow outa your drama, please.

--Pete

Hey, it wouldn't be the first free market utopia to end up in Davy Jones' Locker.

-Jester

[Crusader]

We mere mortal Europeans were dumbfounded when we heard.

1: US banks take enormous risks
2: US banks go bankrupt
3: US Government saves US banks
4: US citizen pays for a: Mortage, b: Saving Bank providing mortage.

Where does the US gov get this money? The wars cost over a trillion, this bank saving scheme 700 billion.

[Delc]

Where does the US gov get this money? The wars cost over a trillion, this bank saving scheme 700 billion.

China mostly. Jokes on them though, we're never paying that debt back.

[--Pete]

Hi,

Hey, it wouldn't be the first free market utopia to end up in Davy Jones' Locker.

-Jester

Hmmm. Either you're being very subtle or you mixed up your URLs. That link takes me to a Wiki article on BioShock. If there is a connection, I don't get it.

--Pete

[Jester]

Hi,
Hmmm. Either you're being very subtle or you mixed up your URLs. That link takes me to a Wiki article on BioShock. If there is a connection, I don't get it.

--Pete

For those that haven't played BioShock, the setting for the game is the city of Rapture, an underwater libertarian/objectivist utopia created by tycoon (and Ayn Rand / Walt Disney hybrid) Andrew Ryan shortly after WWII in order to escape the authoritarianism of fascism, communism, and New Deal America. However, what begins as a free market utopia is undermined by the lack of lawful authority, the disrespect for conventional morality, and general "playing god" with unrestrained scientific advances leading to civil war, and eventually, dystopia.

In case you were wondering. :D

-Jester

[--Pete]

Hi,

For those that haven't played BioShock, the setting for the game is the city of Rapture, an underwater libertarian/objectivist utopia created by tycoon (and Ayn Rand / Walt Disney hybrid) Andrew Ryan shortly after WWII in order to escape the authoritarianism of fascism, communism, and New Deal America. However, what begins as a free market utopia is undermined by the lack of lawful authority, the disrespect for conventional morality, and general "playing god" with unrestrained scientific advances leading to civil war, and eventually, dystopia.

In case you were wondering. :D

-Jester

Oh, OK. I guess that this makes the USA (except, I suppose, Kansas) just another fantasy world B)

--Pete

[roguebanshee]

Hi,
Oh, OK. I guess that this makes the USA (except, I suppose, Kansas) just another fantasy world B)

--Pete

You meant that USA isn't a fantasy land made up by our politicians to make it seem like everything is allright?:P

[--Pete]

Hi,

You meant that USA isn't a fantasy land made up by our politicians to make it seem like everything is allright?:P

Well, if it is, then they're failing in that, too.

--Pete

[Chesspiece_face]

Hi,
Well, if it is, then they're failing in that, too.

--Pete

You'd be suprised at how many non-LL posters buy into the BS. The FPC of America (Facepalms per capita)is rising at an incredible rate.

Conspiracy Fail

[Kevin]

Hi,
Well, if it is, then they're failing in that, too.

--Pete

I'm curious if you've ever felt this nation has been going alright. I'm not trying to poke a jab at you. I'm only 33, so it was right around 1988 or so (when I was around 13) that I started to really follow politics at any real level and it was still a few years after that when I finally had a few more tools to understand how more things actually worked so I wasn't just following politics in an ideal not fully informed way. If you don't have a basic understanding of economics you can't really follow politics fully since it plays such a huge role in them, I didn't get that understanding till I was a junior in high school (91-92) and I didn't get a deeper understanding till my sophomore year in college (94-95). So while I started following stuff earlier, I bought into rhetoric that I later learned was just that and not real information. So I have to color try and go back and look at what I had believed in the light of what I had later learned.

As I was growing up, I was never comfortable with the leadership of this country. And the economic boon that Clinton presided over I've got a much better understanding of how fake a lot of it was, and that some of what we are seeing now is a result of people doing unsound things back then (some of it is a result of people doing unsound things more recently as well, but it traces back farther than just a few years) which makes me less happy about that. History tells me that I don't think I would have been happy with the Reagan years either. So it's hard for me to tell, all I was really aware of were the Bush - Clinton - Bush years. And it was really only the last Clinton - Bush years that I really had enough basic tools to make some informed decisions on some of the bigger issues. My childhood that I can remember was under the Reagan years and we were a very poor family, though it would be very unfair to place all that on the general direction of the country. I'm very aware that pretty much all the clothes I had as a kid were Christmas gifts from my grandmother or hand me downs. I remember having to go to the office everyday at school to get my free school lunch ticket for several years and even after that it was always reduced price because of where our families income was. I remember that I got exactly 1 serving of cereal and milk (measured out with the measuring cups) so that Mom and Dad could exactly plan the food budget. So I never have fond memories of the Reagan days.

The lack of corporations, with the exception of a few of the high tech electronic and a few of the pharmaceutical industries, not really reinvesting any of the profits into R&D or infrastructure upgrades, always worried me as well. I didn't ever expect them to stay leaders but it made me worry about major US industry even staying competitive. Some of that has born fruit some of it I've learned was unfounded and that I was too idealistic on some of my views. :)

And I've never been happy with any energy policy either, though Clinton did do some stuff to try and stimulate alternatives, but I don't think anyone in power was really worried about it. I again didn't always have the tools to fully understand those issues either so I have to hindsight some of that, but that is another major area that I've not felt has been dealt with well. It's like the corporate infrastructure, we as a nation on all levels tend to sit on whatever is working until it breaks while only giving a cursory look at other options, then scramble to try and recover. I realize this is general human (and many other animals) nature. But part of the point of leading at any level is to try and anticipate issues and plan ahead, not just steer the ship blindly. Sure you'll make mistakes doing that as well, but generally they don't seem to be as catastrophic.

But basically I've never felt we've had a good leader and I became very aware that our national deficit was only sustainable as long as the dollar was the strongest currency in the world (which it was for most of my life), but I predicted a major collapse of the US economy as soon as I read about the EU (even ended up writing a paper on it for a class). I knew that whatever currency they used would weaken the dollar enough and that a rising Asian market would help, assuming the Euro didn't just instantly come out a lot stronger on it's own. Once that tipping point was reached our debt would start to really show the effects that a strong dollar kept hiding and the effects would start to be seen by the "average citizen" beyond just the tax rates that most of them only think about when they think about the effects of government spending. There is certainly more too it, but I just envisioned that as the first big tipping point/issue as I was learning more about how economies work and learning more about how individual and corporate financing worked and I believed for a long time that Alan Greenspan was the most powerful man in the world, though that is only true on a few levels.

So I really do wonder if folks with more life experience have ever felt the nation was truly going well and not just looking like it was going well as we covered up but didn't work to solve major underlying issues. And while I only mentioned the presidents it isn't just their leadership (or lack there of) that has been poor. I watched some governors, senators, alderman/city council, mayors, school board reps, etc do some pretty stupid things. Of course I also watched them make decisions that I didn't feel they, or I, were qualified to make but that had to be made and sometimes they were right and sometimes they were wrong. But the general trend of just not understanding economics in this country and not trying to work to fix the underlying issues has always had me worried. And no I don't claim to understand how to fix it all, even in an ideal sense.

If everyone had stopped spending and always saved and never taken investment risks, our economy would have collapsed as well. Oh and I don't feel we've gotten more than about halfway at most through this current collapse. I'm pretty sure things are going to get significantly worse. Since we are dealing with a weaker dollar and the effects that has as well as a bit of an energy crisis, I still think things are going to get worse before they get better and that the next president (or the one after them) will get credit they don't deserve for "pulling us out" of a situation that we'll eventually work our way out of anyway. Certainly government policies will play a role in how deep it goes and how long it stays down, but they aren't the only factor.

Of course maybe I'm wrong in thinking that social issues are generally the least of our concerns when it comes to electing leaders. When I was younger they were what colored my views the most and it's not that they don't carry any weight, but I'm way more concerned with economic, energy, and foreign policy than other issues. I guess I figure if we have energy and money and not everyone hates us, that we'll have time to work on the other stuff. :)

[--Pete]

Hi,

You'd be suprised at how many non-LL posters buy into the BS. The FPC of America (Facepalms per capita)is rising at an incredible rate.

Conspiracy Fail

Old, old, joke, and not too funny: "The intelligence of the human race is constant, but the population is increasing." So, I guess, each person now is about half as smart now as we were in 1950.

--Pete

[--Pete]

Hi,

I'm curious if you've ever felt this nation has been going alright.

Intellectually, I know that this nation, like any nation, has its good points and its bad in all times. Sometimes the good outweigh the bad and that was probably the case in the '50s but I was too young then to really know. I think there was a feeling of exuberance that led to some good in the early '60s and those I do remember, being in high school at that time. But then came Kennedy's assassination, the heightened awareness of the cold war and MAD, the Vietnam war, the counterculture and the backlash. And by the '70s, "I'm from the government and I'm here to help you." had become a cruel, grotesque, joke.

I've seen a nation that at least payed lip service to, "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country." turn into the nation of Enron, S&L bailouts, and government by special interests. I've seen the 'free love' generation turn into the egocentric, selfish, grubbing AARP. And I've seen the potential of the computer turn into a bunch of "My . . ." folders.

We're losing the scientific battle, the SSC lives . . . in CERN not Texas. We're losing the freedom battle, ten European nations, New Zealand, and Australia ranked ahead of the USA in personal freedoms in a survey conducted last year. As you've pointed out, we're losing the economic battle. And it appears that we've thrown in the towel in the educational battle. And we went from respecting too much to respecting nothing.

But in many ways, we are still the best nation in the world. The average American contributes more to charity than any other person on earth. When disaster strikes, we are there fast (except, of course, within our own borders), often faster than the response teams from the nations involved.

So, how to answer your question?

I guess things were never perfect. Perhaps they have gotten worse as time has gone by, but that could be nostalgia. I think we've got the capacity to pull ourselves out of the mire we're in, but I don't know about the character, the desire, and the drive. And I still break out crying less than half a minute into my life, the short version.

--Pete

[kandrathe]

Intellectually, I know that this nation, like any nation, has its good points and its bad in all times. ...

I think the problems are worse now that the White House is at the intersection of K Street and Madison Avenue. The only necessity for gaining elected office is a bag of money, and the best way to get one is to write a book. For example, here in Minnesota, Mark Dayton ran for the Senate seat twice, and finally won after spending 12 million from his own pocket (double the amount from his first attempt, and about 3 times more than his opponents). He proposed implementing a tax on e-mails to stop spam... Yeah, right. They come from China, dude. He is an idiot with deep pockets inherited from his family fortune.

He is running for Governor here in 2010.

[shoju]

I will first and foremost say that I'm not a financial market person. I don't pay attention to all of the stuff that I probably should, but this is my story.

The people that I feel bad for in this whole thing are the young homeowners. My wife and I were pretty young when the real-estate boon hit 4-5 years ago. Real Estate companies were promising low variable rate mortgages that could get you into a house for more than 150 bucks less than the average rent payment in the area.

We were intrigued, our first child (my second) had just been born, and things were cramped in our tiny home. We went looking, and could just never find a house that 'wowed' us. So, we moved into another double that was a little bigger.

It's the best decision that I have ever made. People that went for the scheme have seen there house payments nearly double from the interest rates, and the real estate company that was most notorious in the area for it is quickly falling apart.

Foreclosures are up big time around here, and it sickens me to hear that the mortgage companies who danced with the devil are going to get bailed out. Bail out the tax payer, the guy who got suckered by the big promises, and let the CEO's suck a fat load of TNT.

[kandrathe]

Assuming all this goes through, the govt will be the proud owner of USDA grade crap debt and quantities requiring mining machinery to clear out.

My question is; What is the alternative? Watch the market consume itself, and have worldwide financial meltdown? I don't think the Boards and Shareholders of Lehman, Merrill, AIG, and a host of other financial services companies had any idea that their companies would get flushed down the toilet and their stocks would drop 95% of their value. Fannie and Freddie are another story, where the worst of government oversight meets the worst in corporate executive & shareholder greed. Worse, the same people in Congress who are supposed to regulate and oversee this industry are getting fat checks from them and their lobbyists. Can you say "Conflict of Interest!".

One Third of New Owners Owe More Than House Is Worth. Many of these people will walk away and file bankruptcy rather than continue to throw their money into a hole.

No Money Down Falls Flat

Which of these products do you think makes sense?

1. The "balloon mortgage," in which the borrower pays only interest for 10 years before a big lump-sum payment is due.<>
   
2. The "liar loan," in which the borrower is asked merely to state his annual income, without presenting any documentation.<>
   
3. The "option ARM" loan, in which the borrower can pay less than the agreed-upon interest and principal payment, simply by adding to the outstanding balance of the loan.<>
   
4. The "piggyback loan," in which a combination of a first and second mortgage eliminates the need for any down payment.<>
   
5. The "teaser loan," which qualifies a borrower for a loan based on an artificially low initial interest rate, even though he or she doesn't have sufficient income to make the monthly payments when the interest rate is reset in two years.<>
   
6. The "stretch loan," in which the borrower has to commit more than 50 percent of gross income to make the monthly payments.<>
   
7. All of the above.<>
   [st]If you answered (7), congratulations! Not only do you qualify for a job as a mortgage banker, but you may also have a future as a Wall Street investment banker and a bank regulator.

You can try to pin this on Bush if you like, but the Congressional Banking committee's and the offices doing the oversight need some blame on this. Also culpable are the stupid people and companies that thought "No Income, No Job, or Asset Loans" (NINJA) were a good idea.

Greed overcame common sense and those idiots do need to suffer. But, not at the expense of the rest of us who are trying to earn a living, raise a family, and have a decent life.

[Zenda]

Kandrathe "I think the problems are worse now that the White House is at the intersection of K Street and Madison Avenue."

Could anyone 'translate' this for me?

Kandrathe "Yeah, right. They come from China, dude."

Not in 2007, according to Wikipedia:

The list of top 12 countries that spread spam around the globe is presented below:

USA: 28.4%;
South Korea: 5.2%;
China (including Hong Kong): 4.9%;
Russia: 4.4%;
...

[Delc]

Kandrathe "Yeah, right. They come from China, dude."

Not in 2007, according to Wikipedia:

The list of top 12 countries that spread spam around the globe is presented below:

USA: 28.4%;
South Korea: 5.2%;
China (including Hong Kong): 4.9%;
Russia: 4.4%;
...

To be fair, most spam comes from computer infected by viruses. So Kandrathe's point about taxing it being stupid still stands. That, and anyone who proposes something like that doesn't understand how email works and should shut their mouth.

[kandrathe]

To be fair, most spam comes from computer infected by viruses.

Yeah, I was going on the olden times, before zombies became popular.

ROSKO - Top Ten Spammers