discrimination of atheists

[eppie]

Finally a report has been written to guide our discussions around this topic.
http://www.iheu.org/new-global-report-di...nreligious

I haven't read the whole document yet but as a remark about the situation in Holland. It is highly likely that this year the prohibition on blasphemy will be removed from the constitution.

And I of course urge you to have a look at the paragraph about the US. My remarks about not having chance to do certain jobs were actually not going far enough. Where I just talked about not having a chance to become eg us president if you are atheist because of public pressure (people will just not vote for you), in 7 states you actually have less legal right if you are atheist.

[kandrathe]

Finally a report has been written to guide our discussions ...

It seems more like a laundry list of grievances from around the globe, many of which (within the US at least) are based on language crafted from the 1800's. But, I applaud your stand for freedom.

The SCOTUS ruled in 1961, Torcaso v. Watkins that religious oaths or requirements were unconstitutional. In that vestiges remain in the various "bible belt" states constitutions is more a statement of the unwillingness to alter them, than actual law.

Also, in most of the most egregious cases, ALL people are subject to the abuse of power by totalitarians wielding law (including religious law) as a weapon. You and I could equally be accused of trumped up crimes against the state, or religion if that suited the whims of the rulers. Both the theist and atheist suffer when authorities dictate what will or will not be our beliefs. The danger is in the amount of power held by the government.

[LavCat]

The SCOTUS ruled in 1961, Torcaso v. Watkins that religious oaths or requirements were unconstitutional.

Yet last I checked the US constitution still requires of the president a solemn oath or affirmation.

[FireIceTalon]

The US constitution is also a bourgeois document that once stated slaves were 3/5ths of a person. Like any other instrument of the State, it changes as necessary to adjust to the current needs of its creators (white ruling class males), but hypocrisies still exist, or result nonetheless.

Anyways, I am a little bit surprised you have such a draconian law to begin with in your country, eppie - since the U.S. tends to be more politically backwards than most of Western Europe, and is a very decadent and apathetic society overall due to its heavy culture of anti-reason, anti-science, and overall, anti-human attitudes.

Religion is mental slavery, and needs to be put into the dustbin of history along with feudalism. I don't need some deity, real or perceived, telling me how to live my life according to his/her will, and if I don't, I am going to very bad place after I die.

[kandrathe]

... requires of the president a solemn oath or affirmation.

Not religious.

-"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."

[LavCat]

Not religious.

-"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."

Many presidents have added the phrase "so help me God," as is required by law for other Federal oaths.

Do you think that anyone taking a presidential oath without those words would dare stand for reelection? Upon what document do presidents take their oath? (Hint: it is not the Federal Register.)

In looking into this I was a bit surprised to learn that "In God we trust" is actually the official motto of the United States.

[eppie]

Not religious.

-"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."

Many presidents have added the phrase "so help me God," as is required by law for other Federal oaths.

Do you think that anyone taking a presidential oath without those words would dare stand for reelection? Upon what document do presidents take their oath? (Hint: it is not the Federal Register.)

In looking into this I was a bit surprised to learn that "In God we trust" is actually the official motto of the United States.

In the Netherlands we also used to have 'god be with us' written on our guilder coins. (just like in the US). This changed not because we wanted to change it but because we got the euro of course.


@fit: yes in Holland we have some similar type of laws. Eventhough we have always been a very pluriform society, christian political parties have often been majority or in coalitions with other parties that didnot find changing these laws very important (because they are actually never enforced after one case in the 60s I believe.
With the upcoming anti islam sentiment, and scandals involving christian institutions there seems to be a majority to remove these laws finally.

Anyway, even in Holland it doesn't help being atheist. (eventhough it is not so bad as in the US). This is the reason I started this thread after discussions we used to have before with kandrathe.
This document nicely sums up what problems atheists face in different parts of the world and it is good to realize this when religious groups start complaining again about that they are discriminated.

[FireIceTalon]

In looking into this I was a bit surprised to learn that "In God we trust" is actually the official motto of the United States.

And capitalism, rather than Christianity, is really the official religion here as well:



^^says it all. The dollar is the god of the people.

[Jester]

^^says it all. The dollar is the god of the people.

What exactly does this say, other than that the United States has currency?

-Jester

[shoju]

Fun Fact: United States Currency didn't always say "In God We Trust". It wasn't until the 1860's that our coins began to carry the motto, and it wasn't until series 1956 (note, that isn't the same as Year all the time) that our currency bore the motto.

The motto was made at the behest of

The Reverend M. R. Watkinson, as part of a campaign initiated by eleven northern Protestant Christian denominations in a letter dated November 13, 1861, petitioned the Treasury Department to add a statement recognising "Almighty God in some form in our coins." At least part of the motivation was to declare that God was on the Union side of the Civil War. According to Brian Burrell, the actual wording of the motto was inspired by a Union Civil War unit's company motto.

The Phrasing of the Motto is most commonly considered a reference to the Fourth Stanza of The Star Spangled Banner.

It's inclusion on our paper currency is in large part attributed to the tense feelings of the Cold War in the 50's.

I have more personal feelings about the motto, but at the desire to keep this thread not a giant flaming ball of war, I'll keep those to myself for the time being.

[FireIceTalon]

Right, because trusting in a deity of some sort is actually going to relieve such tensions, or that a deity picked a side in a war and led it to victory - it is much easier to understand the actual workings of the world this way by simplifying it in this manner, after all. These are just more good reasons to dismiss religion as idealistic nonsense (especially when it comes to history) because it relies on a form of the Great Man Theory of history, rather than an scientific interpretation that observes objective social phenomena.

[kandrathe]

Many presidents have added the phrase "so help me God," as is required by law for other Federal oaths.

Do you think that anyone taking a presidential oath without those words would dare stand for reelection? Upon what document do presidents take their oath? (Hint: it is not the Federal Register.)

Which in researching has been tradition since Washington. Only Teddy Roosevelt did not use a bible, or utter those words. As I understand it not that he was irreligious, but that he felt pandering cheapened both the religion and the Presidency.

In looking into this I was a bit surprised to learn that "In God we trust" is actually the official motto of the United States.

I prefer 'E pluribus unum' which much like our republic is Roman in ideation. I guess I'm more in line with Teddy. I'd offer an alternative, "For the love of money is the root of all evil".

In the face of a government that see fit to without due process rendition citizens off in the dark of night to secret prisons, torture them, and leave them there without charges for years... Having someone annoyed by 60 year old words on the rapidly worthless currency seems minor to me.

[eppie]

In the face of a government that see fit to without due process rendition citizens off in the dark of night to secret prisons, torture them, and leave them there without charges for years... Having someone annoyed by 60 year old words on the rapidly worthless currency seems minor to me.

But you would be surprised how many people see the wars in the middle east as a clash between Islam and christianity.

[kandrathe]

But you would be surprised how many people see the wars in the middle east as a clash between Islam and Christianity.

They are in a way, but I see it as a clash between two (anti-freedom) groups who believe "You need to live my way", rather than "Live and let live". Conflict arises, even between close friends and relatives, when you start offering unsolicited advice, or worse coercing them to do it your way. And... by coercing, I mean homicidal mayhem with human shrapnel bombs in crowded public places, or stealthy drone missile strikes.

I don't see the US as much of Christian nation as is portrayed by the popular press. When asked about their religion, 80% of the US population may profess some type of connection to a Christian group. A recent (2006) survey I saw found they constitute about 5 equal categories; Active, Professing, Liturgical, Private, and Cultural Christians.



In the data you see that only about 40-50% of those 80% who say they are Christians are doing anything about it.

Our European partners in the "Crusade" are even less so Christian.

[Jester]

In the data you see that only about 40-50% of those 80% who say they are Christians are doing anything about it.

80% say they're Christian, 40-50% are regular church attendees... maybe this seems low if your benchmark for a "Christian society" is more like 100%/80%. But if you're not Christian, it does still seem like there is one religious group overwhelmingly larger and more influential than the others.

Or, put another way, if those Church attendees ever all voted together, they'd never lose another US election. It's never that simple in practice, but it still moves the needle on policy by a lot.

-Jester

[kandrathe]

80% say they're Christian, 40-50% are regular church attendees... maybe this seems low if your benchmark for a "Christian society" is more like 100%/80%. But if you're not Christian, it does still seem like there is one religious group overwhelmingly larger and more influential than the others.

Or, put another way, if those Church attendees ever all voted together, they'd never lose another US election. It's never that simple in practice, but it still moves the needle on policy by a lot

The big separation philosophically, and somewhat politically is that the "Active" column is most likely evangelicals, and the "Litergical" is code for Catholics. If the evangelical WASPs ever could bring themselves to align with the growing dominance of Hispanic Catholics, then they'd have political clout. Hence, why Romney and the R's botched it with the hard line stance on immigration before the election.

But, I agree that the US is still more religiously oriented than other western nations.

[eppie]

But, I agree that the US is still more religiously oriented than other western nations.

France is an example for us all.
And for scared religious people; there are loads of religious people in France....and they are free to practice their faith.....they are just not allowed to tell other people what to do beacause of the God they believe in.

Of course it doesn't mean that there are no religion related problems in France but the discussion in the public space can be held on basis of facts on not baed on sentiments....and this is very importat I think.

[Occhidiangela]

The US constitution is also a bourgeois document that once stated slaves were 3/5ths of a person. Like any other instrument of the State, it changes as necessary to adjust to the current needs of its creators (white ruling class males), but hypocrisies still exist, or result nonetheless.

Anyways, I am a little bit surprised you have such a draconian law to begin with in your country, eppie - since the U.S. tends to be more politically backwards than most of Western Europe, and is a very decadent and apathetic society overall due to its heavy culture of anti-reason, anti-science, and overall, anti-human attitudes.

Religion is mental slavery, and needs to be put into the dustbin of history along with feudalism. I don't need some deity, real or perceived, telling me how to live my life according to his/her will, and if I don't, I am going to very bad place after I die.

Karl Marx just phoned, and asked you to stop trying to make an arse out of him with your inane tossing about of Marxist sound bytes.

Thanks, and Merry Christmas. Don't worry, Santa Claus is on your side: he wears red.

Edited to add:

As to Western Europe, the decadent culture there hates itself enough to stop breeding. That is a curious sort of nihilism, to pursue deliberate negative population growth as a matter of cultural imperative. Leaving Europe in the rear view mirror was one of the best things the Americans did, and the return to authoritarian European values, and trivial nonsense like espresso and latte, is an enormous mistake, culturally. The anti science society developed the computer chips that make it possible for fools like yourself to post on the internet.

You are welcome. Thanks for being yet another data point in support of an idea I've seen running about here and there: the internet is the most effective means of spreading idiocy and stupidity known to man.

[FireIceTalon]

The US constitution is also a bourgeois document that once stated slaves were 3/5ths of a person. Like any other instrument of the State, it changes as necessary to adjust to the current needs of its creators (white ruling class males), but hypocrisies still exist, or result nonetheless.

Anyways, I am a little bit surprised you have such a draconian law to begin with in your country, eppie - since the U.S. tends to be more politically backwards than most of Western Europe, and is a very decadent and apathetic society overall due to its heavy culture of anti-reason, anti-science, and overall, anti-human attitudes.

Religion is mental slavery, and needs to be put into the dustbin of history along with feudalism. I don't need some deity, real or perceived, telling me how to live my life according to his/her will, and if I don't, I am going to very bad place after I die.

Karl Marx just phoned, and asked you to stop trying to make an arse out of him with your inane tossing about of Marxist sound bytes.

Thanks, and Merry Christmas. Don't worry, Santa Claus is on your side: he wears red.

Edited to add:

As to Western Europe, the decadent culture there hates itself enough to stop breeding. That is a curious sort of nihilism, to pursue deliberate negative population growth as a matter of cultural imperative. Leaving Europe in the rear view mirror was one of the best things the Americans did, and the return to authoritarian European values, and trivial nonsense like espresso and latte, is an enormous mistake, culturally. The anti science society developed the computer chips that make it possible for fools like yourself to post on the internet.

You are welcome. Thanks for being yet another data point in support of an idea I've seen running about here and there: the internet is the most effective means of spreading idiocy and stupidity known to man.

You need to take a very long, hard look at yourself before calling anyone else out on having a lack of intelligence, or reducing people to "data points".

It is mindless patriots like yourself spreading stupidity and idiocy. You calling anyone else an idiot or stupid is a complete joke, since it is clear from most of your posts that Darwin's theory somehow got lost in translation in your case (but perhaps "Santa Clause" will bring you some grey matter for Christmas, all wrapped in pretty gift wrap paper with Scarecrows on it and a letter saying "evolution isnt always perfect, so here you go").

And quit throwing around meaningless buzzwords like "authoritarian", which have little meaning. You speak as if American society is this wonderful freedonia, and the lords of private capital in D.C's church and their corporate cronies on Wall Street or elsewhere are not "authoritarian", and that workers here just have incredible rights and everything is all rosy here compared to the rest of the world. You are a typical libertarian tool spouting right-wing talking points and rhetoric. Ill tell you what's trivial nonsense: you paying lip service to crackpots like Rush, Faux News, or maybe in your case Alex Jones, that use your favorite buzzwords like "freedom" and "authoritarian" so you can come on here and try to look informed - but I'm going to bring you down a few rungs on the ladder and give you a reality check: you are anything but informed. Don't talk to me about other nations being nihilist, when America is historically one of the primary epicenters of nihilism on the planet - with the highest incarceration rate (of ALL time, and consisting mostly of minorities), and a dismal human rights record to boot. Talk about self-loathing. Besides places like Iran or Afghanistan, the U.S. has the most politically and culturally backwards society today. But of course, our Prussian banking-system of education taught you otherwise about our history, and that is a big reason why many Americans are some of the most ahistorical and apolitical people and anti-intellectual on the planet - and a third of them can't even point to Iraq on a map, a country we invaded TWICE, and half of them or more think the earth is 6,000 years old. Perhaps you should start learning to think critically and stop listening to everything the ideological state apparatus shoves down your throat. In short, fuck your nationalism. Hypocritical windbags like you make me sick - go take a long walk on a short peer, and take your subjective moralism nonsense with you.

Merry X-mas. Friggin dingbat.

P.S. - I will keep up with the Marxist "sound bytes", because well, being a Marxist is the most logical and stupendous thing one can be (especially right now) - when someone can demonstrate to me a more scientific and logical mode of analysis for understanding our social organization, development, and being, ill stop being such. Because all the other views or explanations I've seen thus far are predominantly idealist, and therefore irrelevant. And as for anyone who has a problem with me personally because I am a Marxist, well, I really couldn't care less. Go cry me a river, build a bridge, and get over it.

[kandrathe]

France is an example for us all. And for scared religious people; there are loads of religious people in France....and they are free to practice their faith.....they are just not allowed to tell other people what to do because of the God they believe in.

Of course it doesn't mean that there are no religion related problems in France but the discussion in the public space can be held on basis of facts on not based on sentiments....and this is very important I think.

Whereas, we have the Bill of Rights, which as the 1st one states, people in the US have the right to express their "sentiments" regardless of who or how many are offended. Whatever the government suppresses, just goes underground whether that be drugs, guns, or self expression.