Any Sports Fans here on the Lounge?

[kandrathe]

Lots of people (not you nuur, just in general) look down on american football and say: ' rugby, or gaelic footbal or australian football are real tough sports'. Of course in American Football players were lots of protection, but if you see with which speeds and force people are tackled sometimes, you can really see why they need to wear protection.

I've read studies that show more padding/protection results in harder hitting, and more injuries.

[shoju]

And there are studies that show that not wearing enough padding in the right places ends with the player suffering from CTE.

[Kevin]

And there are studies that show that not wearing enough padding in the right places ends with the player suffering from CTE.

Not to mention Congress considering outlawing the game in the early 1900's because of people dying on the field leading to rules changes (opening the passing game) and equipment changes.

The stop/start nature of the game, with or without safety equipment, leads to more violent collisions. Players get more rest than in many other heavy contact sports, players have more opportunities to hit each other at full speed. The stop start nature creates a selection bias towards players that have a lot of well developed fast twitch muscle fiber which allows more force to be generated even when players aren't moving at a full speed run. The forces of impact between the offensive and defensive linemen have been measured and I don't recall the numbers but the numbers are immense.

The nature of the sport is simply more violent than any other major sport, and that includes all the other sports with common ancestries (Rugby, Australian rules football, Union Rugby, etc). Lack of safety equipment can be a huge injury problem. Players don't get skull fractures the way they did back in the leather helmet days.

All that being said pro players today actually wear less equipment than they did even 20 years ago. The exception being better helmets, and I do think the league should mandate even better helmets), but many defensive backs, wide receivers, and even linebackers wear very small shoulder pads, no thigh, hip, tailbone, or knee pads. It isn't just tech advances in the padding either, the smaller shoulder pads they wear do not offer the same level of protection as the larger ones from decades past. In some case the smaller pads are as effective, but in general the trend over the last decade or so has been players wearing less padding.

Some of the reasoning for this is that injury treatment has progressed. 30 years ago Adrian Peterson might have been out of football, now he misses the end of a season, and might break the all time NFL rushing record.

The more padding/protection leads to harder hitting and more injuries has opposing studies, the types of injuries matter, there is also a huge difference in injury reporting, more are reported now, in part due to league rule changes and reporting enforcement, and some of the studies relied on this data and league trends in the amount of padding to draw their conclusions. Some injury types do increase and there isn't a lot to dispute, other types of injuries go down.

Some injuries are going to increase because the average player is truly still bigger, stronger faster. Gene Ferguson of the Chargers was the only 300 pound player in the NFL in 1970. There were three 300+ pound players in 1980, 94 in 1990, 301 in 2000, and 394 in 2009.

There are 300+ players that can do a 40 yard dash in under 4.8 seconds. The fastest players in the league clock in around 4.2 seconds (there have been faster). Clay Matthews, one of the better know pass rushers in the league, weighs in at 255 pounds, in the 70's that was still big enough to play center or guard on the offensive line, and he was as fast as your average NFL wide receiver at 4.58 in the 40 yard dash.

Now we want some perspective. Usain Bolt, who admittedly isn't a fast starter, would likely clock in around a 4.1 using NFL combine timing methods. I believe most analysis show he isn't at top speed until around 60m into his best runs, but people tend to understand just how fast Bolt is. The fastest official NFL combine result in the 40 yard dash was a 4.24 from Chris Johnson, though others have run faster at other events that used electric timing. These are very very fast and very very large human beings and any injury and padding study really can't go more than a about 3 year window because they are getting bigger and faster still and that simply leads to higher forces happening than ever before. They are also getting better coaching still, so they can use that power and speed more effectively. Yes I honestly think that if you had a time machine any current team, even some team like the 2012 Cleveland Browns, would likely dominate even as recently as 1980, simply because of the athletic advantage even the worst modern teams have. Sure there are players even from the 50's who without any other adjustments could still play in the current NFL, but the average is getting better.

[eppie]

[quote='shoju' pid='204619' dateline='1355359628']
And there are studies that show that not wearing Sure there are players even from the 50's who without any other adjustments could still play in the current NFL, but the average is getting better.

The americanization in sports (using statistics).

But anyway, this was a very interesting sum-up, thanks.
(a pity they use yards and feet. )
You also made the remark already but in athletics time starts running after the startgun has been fired.....in these football timings they probably start the time when the players starts moving?
Still these guys are very fast and you can see that.

In football I believe it was Ronaldo who was known for his very fast start, something he could used to pass players effectively.

[shoju]

One slight nitpick Kevin.

Chris Johnson's 4.24 40 yard combine time was fast, but it wasn't "the" fastest.

That said, Bo Jackson has the best verifiable time at a Combine with his 4.12 clocking at the New Orleans Superdome in 1986.

Other than, that, I completely agree with you. Even when saying the current Browns would be a powerhouse in years gone by. It's true. I hate to admit it, because I want to believe that some of the greats would still be stupifyingly great today. Jim Brown, Ronnie Lott, Otto Graham, Etc.. But the reality is, the game has changed far too much.

Regarding padding, I do with that the NFL would require leg pads of all it's players. The hip pads, thigh pads, Knee Pads especially. I'm actually glad that they are trying to take shoulder pad size down. With those old school "lunch Trays" on their shoulders, you wuold have far more violent hits that end up impacting the head, purely because there is more striking area.

The NFL Helmet is fast becoming one of the biggest sources of safety, not just in football, but in other areas as well. A couple of years ago, when Concussions became a big deal (finally) several Motorcycle helmet companies contacted Schutt, a Helmet manufacturer, about investing in their helmet design and concussion safety protocols, because they wanted to be able to port that over to their own helmets.

[Kevin]

One slight nitpick Kevin.

Chris Johnson's 4.24 40 yard combine time was fast, but it wasn't "the" fastest.

That said, Bo Jackson has the best verifiable time at a Combine with his 4.12 clocking at the New Orleans Superdome in 1986.

Sorry I should have said Chris Johnson has the fastest 40 time using fully electric timing (meaning the start and the stop). Jackson did his with a hand start on the timer (perhaps it was 3 separate hand starts and then the average or median time was used). He was fast, he was crazy fast, but it was timed with a different method. I believe Deion Sanders was a 4.1 something using the same timing methods as Jackson. I'm pretty sure that the "official NFL" record is Chris Johnson. But then again what is officially recorded changes. Sacks didn't become official until 1982 as one of the more notable examples. I don't know when combine "records" became official.

I also think that all the players you named, you still be able to play today, and possibly would be great still, even if you just took them from their rookie years to today and started them fresh. They would be a bit behind because of some of advances, but most of the Hall of Fame caliber players would still be able to start, many would be pro bowl/all pro level, and some would still be able to be Hall of Famers. The outliers haven't changed as much as the average players have. The worst NFL players now just have a significant athletic advantage. Though there is more to the game than that. Now one of the differences is QB. Unitas would likely be better now than he was in the past. Rules changes that don't allow the defensive backs to essentially mug the wide receiver for the whole length of the field would likely make it so Unitas saw more open receivers or at least more tight windows, and he had the throwing accuracy. That's also part of why QB's have become even more critical to success. Passing is a more time efficient way to gain yards, and it also helps minimize the number of players that can have a direct impact on the play, because it doesn't have to start in the middle of the field, it can take the typical 12-15 players closely involved in a running play and drop that to as few as 8 or so (only 3 rushing D lineman, so 2 oline men don't really matter much, the QB, the receiver and the back in one on one coverage). Sure it's not usually that few, but it can happen.

Oh and I also typo'd when I said 300+ players that go 4.8 or faster. I meant to say there are now 300+ pound players that can run a 4.8 40. That's just freakish. Sure guys that big pretty much never need to get flat out, but just the ability to get that much weight moving that fast.

I was an OK athlete in my younger days. I've done a 5K in under 18 minutes, a 3200 meters (~2 miles) in 10:45, I've done a 100m dash in the high 12s. But my best 40yard would still have been well over 5. Usain Bolt would have been 20 some odd meters ahead of me at the finish. But there are 300 pound men playing in the NFL who have had 100m times recorded in the mid 10s range who would have only been 8 - 12 meters behind him when he set the world record.

An old Popular Mechanics article does a nice quick summary of some of the types of typical forces involved.

Part of the reason kick off rules have been changed isn't because of higher occurrence of injuries, but the severity of injuries, mostly because it's one of the few times where players can hit each other at full speed. The "defenseless receiver" rules being another case, but even then the defender isn't usually able to deliver full power, and the receiver isn't often going full tilt because even on the best throw momentum is lost in making the catch.

I played a few years of high school football in the early 90's and took and delivered a few big hits, in general, you can shrug it off because of the padding. I've also played a bit of rugby, and yeah, just the nature of the game, like I mentioned, you don't have nearly as many chances to deliver the big hit, and the demands of the game don't allow the same degree of specialization that the NFL allows, etc. You see this with the difference between punts and kick offs in the NFL. On punts you don't have nearly the same number of opportunities for the big hits because there is much more "side by side" and short range blocking. It's generally only if the punter does a really good job on the kick (getting good hang time) and the receiving team blows blocking assignments that you get the chances for the really high speed hits that nearly every kick off has.

All that being said the kick off changes and the newer ideas being floated around about it, are more about PR than actual safety because of all the lawsuits that NFL is facing.

But this game just isn't baseball, basketball, or hockey, where era translation is much easier. Wilt Chamberlain would still dominate, Elgin Baylor would have no trouble fitting in, and Michael Jordan could still be the greatest player ever. Sandy Koufax and Babe Ruth would still dominate, Willie Mays would still be able to be a super star. The average MLB and NBA players have also gotten better, but the nature of the game hasn't morphed the same, the skill sets haven't changed as much. When you have 22 players interacting on every play in football, vs 10 in basketball, vs 2 or 3 in baseball, and you add in the start/stop nature; the ability to specialize and then train and condition and select certain types of people for those roles increases.

[shoju]

Yeah, it was 3 hand times, and median result I believe. Even still, Suppose Bo Jackson was "As Slow" as Chris Johnson. BO is listed at 6'1" 227lbs playing weight. That's... REALLY big for a RB. Chris Johnson is listed at 5'11" 191lbs. Ray Lewis, is listed at 6'1" 250 lbs. So Bo's size put him somewhere in between Chris Johnson, and Ray Lewis. That's... FREAKISHLY big, and unbelievably fast. Even if, which the hand start time adjusted to Digital time, he was as slow as Chris Johnson. It's no wonder that the injury that ruined him was his hip joint dislocation. Could you imagine the power in the body of someone that size moving THAT FAST?

And you're right, the average talent in the league has gone up. And there is a pretty good reason why.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Above all, this is what gets the talent moving higher. And I don't mean it in a negative way. When Jim Brown played, he was the greatest Running Back in the Game. And he still had an offseason job. If he was the greatest in the game, and had an Offseason job, You better believe that the random guy X playing RG has an offseason job.

Because of that, the training just wasn't the same. Sure, some of these guys did construction, or meat packing, or something physical, which would keep them in shape, but it wasn't like they were training year round.

Now, the amount of money that they are making is enough, that this IS their full time job. The offseason is spent training, staying in shape, building more muscle, endurance, etc...

It does leave me to wonder though... Could Jim Brown Bowl over Ray Lewis the way he did so many in the 60's? It's hard to decide, the game, the style of play, the rules, the players, so much has changed since then.

It's part of the reason why I regard Peyton Manning as the best QB to play the game. Defenses are more complex than they ever have been. Players are more physically capable than ever. And yet, here is this guy, who routinely makes the right reads, the right throws, the right decisions.

Sure, the league is definitely more QB friendly than when Montana, or Bradshaw, or Namath, or Graham played. I wont argue that. But at the same time, it is far more complex. And still, Manning makes so many adjustments at the line. For me, the thing that makes him stand out from the rest of the crowd has little to do with his physical abilities. It's all about the pre-snap information gathering. No QB had done anything like that (at least on that scale) until Peyton was going no huddle, call the play and adjustments at the line. And, this season, he has proved that it wasn't a "Team" or a "Coach" thing. He's doing it again, with diminished physical ability (I hate to say it, but you can see there is a little "less" on the pass) than he had 2 years ago.

[Tal]

Yeah, it was 3 hand times, and median result I believe. Even still, Suppose Bo Jackson was "As Slow" as Chris Johnson. BO is listed at 6'1" 227lbs playing weight. That's... REALLY big for a RB. Chris Johnson is listed at 5'11" 191lbs. Ray Lewis, is listed at 6'1" 250 lbs. So Bo's size put him somewhere in between Chris Johnson, and Ray Lewis. That's... FREAKISHLY big, and unbelievably fast.

That size isn't out of line for a running back.

The Ravens list three RBs on their roster:

Allen, Anthony 6'1" 230
Pierce, Bernard 6'0" 218
Rice, Ray 5'8" 212

Curious I went and looked at the top rusher for each year starting in 1932:

1932: Cliff Battles 6'1" 195
1942: Bill Dudley 5'10" 182
1952: Dan Towler 6'2" 225
1962: Jim Taylor 6'0" 214
1972: O.J. Simpson 6'1" 212
1982: Freeman McNeil 5'11" 216
1992: Emmitt Smith 5'9" 216
2002: Ricky Williams 5'10" 230 (Ran the 40 in 4.56)
2012: Adrian "I'm a Robot" Peterson 6'1" 217 (Ran the 40 in 4.40)

[shoju]

Let me re-phrase.

That's REALLY freaking big for a RB who posted an (admittedly hand timed) 4.12 40yd dash.

Anthony Allen - 4.54
Bernard Pierce - 4.34
Ray Rice - 4.47

[Tal]

Let me re-phrase.

That's REALLY freaking big for a RB who posted an (admittedly hand timed) 4.12 40yd dash.

Anthony Allen - 4.54
Bernard Pierce - 4.34
Ray Rice - 4.47

Allow this to sink in. Haloti Ngata ran the 40 at 5.13 at 6'4" and 338 pounds. >.>

[Kevin]

Let me re-phrase.

That's REALLY freaking big for a RB who posted an (admittedly hand timed) 4.12 40yd dash.

Anthony Allen - 4.54
Bernard Pierce - 4.34
Ray Rice - 4.47

Allow this to sink in. Haloti Ngata ran the 40 at 5.13 at 6'4" and 338 pounds. >.>

The Packers have a DE on injured reserve this year (practice squad last year), he played at Arizona State and came out as a junior. Lawrence Guy. At the combine he measure in a 6-4 1/8 305 pounds and hit a 4.91 in the 40. At his pro day he was measured at 310 and did a 4.84.

There are bigger men who have run faster. He's raw, and next year will be his 3rd in the league technically but he's only 22 right now (he'll be 23 at the start of next season). If he comes back from the injury and they can get anything out of that amount of raw talent I'll be darn happy. Maybe then even with both of our starting OLB's injured (Perry on IR after game 6 and Matthews out the last 4 games) we can still have a pass rush.

[Nystul]

Bo Jackson was the real deal. I remember when I was a kid there was some kind of baseball skills competition, and outfielders had to shag fly balls shot out to either gap. They got bonus points for making a spectacular catch. But Bo Jackson did not make any "spectacular catch". He ran down every ball and made them all look easy. Plus just look what he can do in Tecmo Bowl.

The thing that really concerns me with regards to football safety is the way guys tackle. To be honest I think they might be safer if they weren't allowed to wear the helmets. All this size and speed and they are lunging at each other head first. I'd say that someone is bound to get paralyzed or killed, but of course those things have already happened. If every hit was made from a balanced position with head up, there would be a lot less missed tackles and probably a lot less injuries. If I had kids I'm not sure I would want them to play football although I played and love the game.

On the other hand, as things stand today, cheerleaders are at greater risk of injury than the football players, including serious threats like paralysis. Something needs to be done about that too...

[Nystul]

To touch on the original points of the thread, I understand the small market strategies and what the Indians are trying to accomplish, but it is so hard to pull off any success that way. I'm a Tigers fan, and we had some competitive years in the 80s, with star players like Alan Trammell who stayed on the same team forever. Then came the 90s and it all fell apart. It got to the point where Travis Fryman was the best player, and then they couldn't keep him. You get to that point where it's like anytime you have a good player, two years later he is too expensive to keep. As a fan that is just unacceptable. It's frustrating to cheer for a team that is constantly trading it's star players to build for a future that never comes.

Since Mike Ilitch took over the Tigers everything changed. Last year he paid way too much money for Prince Fielder. One could look at it and say, this deal will paralyze the Tigers and they won't be able to afford a complete team. But he seems willing to solve that problem by simply spending more money than the Detroit market can support. Dude is 83 years old, loaded with money, and he wants to win a World Series. Basically the ideal owner from a fan's perspective.

Now how can a team like the Indians compete? It's really a tough puzzle if the budget is not big enough to bid on top players. Certainly we have seen teams with young stars and small payrolls that had success and made playoff runs. It is certainly possible with sharp management and some luck. But there is not much margin for error, and fans will run out of patience if things don't come together quickly. When you have a reputation as perennial "seller" team, then solid veteran players won't want to sign/stay with your team either.

[shoju]

Nystul,

The problem is, Teams like the Rays, The Reds, and the Brewers, are showing that it is entirely possible to pay for, and retain a core group of talent. They'll never be able to keep James Shields, CC Sabathia, Prince Fielder (the detroit deal has me head scratching), etc... who will command record contracts.

I'm ok with that. But, you have a "next level" of "superstars", guys who command mid to high teens money per year, and they are proving that they can afford 1-2 of them, and a few that are in the high singles to low teens money, and boom! You have a core of strong solid players that you can build a team around, and be competitive.

I think the part that has consistently baffled me, isn't the loss of CC by the Tribe. I don't think anyone expected them to be able to afford him realistically. But the loss of Victor Martinez level players who didn't move on to sign massive deals, but were deemed too "expensive", while retaining players who have a track record of injury: Travis Hafner, Grady Sizemore, etc... and paying way too much for "not good" players, like Ubaldo Jimenez, Casey Kotchman.

I look at the trades and signing made by the Indians over the past week, and I'm absolutely baffled. Mark Reynolds, is a mediocre defensive First Baseman who can hit Home Runs, but Strikes Out WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too much (he led the league in '11), while trading for Drew Stubbs, a gifted defensive CF (oh wait... we have one of those in Michael Brantley), who also strikes out WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too much (He led HIS league in K's in '11 as well), all so we could go after a prospect pitcher, and downgrade our bullpen.

Looking at the prospective lineup for the Indians in '13 looks like this:

C - Carlos Santana - .247 Career BA, .252 last year
1b - Mark Reynolds - .235 Career BA, .221 Last year
2b - Jason Kipnis - .257 BA Last Year as RC
SS - Asdrubal Cabrera - .279 Career BA .270 Last Year
3b - Lonnie Chisenhall - .268 BA Last Year in Limited Action
RF - Michael Brantley - .274 Career BA - .288 Last year
CF - Drew Stubbs - .241 Career BA .214 Last year
LF - Shelly Duncan - .229 Career BA .203 Last Year
DH - ?

I just... Don't even begin to understand how this is supposed to be a lineup that exudes confidence from fans? How are we supposed to get excited for a team with a composite .BA of .250 with a .310 OBP .430 slugging, and .680 OPS? Ugh. it's just frustrating.

[DeeBye]

Since Mike Ilitch took over the Tigers everything changed. Last year he paid way too much money for Prince Fielder. One could look at it and say, this deal will paralyze the Tigers and they won't be able to afford a complete team. But he seems willing to solve that problem by simply spending more money than the Detroit market can support. Dude is 83 years old, loaded with money, and he wants to win a World Series. Basically the ideal owner from a fan's perspective.

Ilitch also owns the Detroit Red Wings, and during his 30 years of ownership they have been a very competitive team. They won the Stanley Cup 4 times under his ownership, and have successfully kept a competitive team together after the 2004 lockout/salary cap era. The Red Wings have basically been the model of a perfect NHL franchise under his ownership. As long as people keep buying his pizzas, the Tigers will be fine.

I'm sort of hopeful for the Blue Jays. They had some really ugly years since winning the World Series in 92/93, but they now have new ownership and have a solid core of young and talented players. They've made some blockbuster trades which might possibly put them into playoff contention, but their major roadblock is being in the AL East with the Yankees and Red Sox. No one can hope to compete with those payrolls.