US ambassador killed over a film

[Jester]

Try again, being normalized is the whole point of being suppressed.

This makes zero sense to me. It's like white is black, up is down, war is peace. If this is the basis of your argument, I'm not sure I even understand where to go from here. If you were right, the Soviets would have normalized the stock market and gone to church, the Nazis would have listened to klesmer while eating matzoh, and the Klan would read Franz Fanon and celebrate Kwanzaa.

If something is normalized, that means it's totally integrated. Normal. Regular. Part of everyday life. Not controversial, not foreign, certainly not suppressed. Huge parts of US culture are actually German culture, and if this was pointed out, nobody would be offended, nobody would shut down the Lutheran churches, nobody would burn your copy of Faust. If they've forgotten it, it's because being German is no longer even slightly controversial.

-Jester

Postscript: Dear lord. If you live in a world where people don't know where schnitzel and bratwurst come from, or that "Du Hast" is German, or that classical music is mostly dead German guys, then I'm not sure cultural suppression is your problem. Education is.

[Taem]

"meaningless anecdotes" I did state from the beginning it was a rant. I was not trying to stereotype in the way you think I was, but I do regret comparing black role-models to rappers - that was misleading hyperbole of the worst type, and I do want to apologize for that statement to everyone. I was trying to rationalize something I know nothing about, and in fact came across as ignorant. Me <-- dumbass right there. Oh well. Damage is done now that you quoted me and I can't edit it. My bad.

Anyways, I suppose I should clarify something for you:

Really, this post stinks of white patriarchism, and is a good example of why I hate America and what it stands for.

Interesting, because I am half-Hispanic in case you didn't know. Here is the exact ancestry running through my veins:

Irish = 18.75%
Indian = 18.75% (this is Toltec Indian, btw)
Spaniard = 18.75%
German = 18.75%
Dutch = 12.5%
Russian = 6.25%
Italian = 6.25%

I didn't know criminals dress a certain way,

Before I comment, I'd like to offer some sobering, non-racist, non-anecdotal facts:

A link I think you'll like FIT, correlating poverty to violent crime, but blaming Capitalism as the root cause: LINK

35% of Hispanics and Blacks are at or below the poverty line, as opposed to 14% Whites and 23% Other in the US: LINK

Now, it doesn't take a genius to do the math on these numbers; the majority of violent crimes will be committed by Hispanics or African Americans by the very nature of the system in it's current state. Of course this does not mean all these types of individuals are like this, hell no!

Now to my anecdotal-filled commentary: of course anyone can be a criminal. We all speed, don't we? Last time I checked, it was only an infraction, yet still it's against the law. I hope white-collar criminals get caught and serve time too. I suppose my fear is more tangible, the things immediately affecting my family. Since you don't seem to believe appearance plays any role in criminal activity, let me tell you about my neighbor who has the cops come regularly about twice a month and has drug-abusing "looking" people entering her home at all times of the day; let me define "drug-using" looking person to give a clearer pictures of to what I'm referring:

Dark circles under the eyes, shifty red eyes, fidgety, pale complexion, long nails, greasy hair and skin, open sores on the skin, missing unkempt teeth, old clothing, chain-smoking. If you've ever been around habitual drug-abusers, then you'd be able to quickly and easily identify them! I'd say the biggest dead give-away is when they drive up around 1AM, stay up all night long fixing their car down in the community carport, then the following day clean the house all day long and rinse and repeat for about three or four days all without a second of sleep - yeah, pretty goddamn obvious, and dangerous. Anecdotal, yes. Proof that all drug-users look like this? Not at all, but the telltale sign of a dangerous drug abuser are apparent from experience having been around those types of people before. I assume police might inherit the same sense when they see someone acting suspicious, a sense that saves their lives!

So lets say, as a police officer, you see someone who looks like this described drug-user in a relatively nice neighborhood and you flash them with your light - not to racially profile them, but out of concern for the law-abiding citizens around them. They run! What do you do? You handcuff them of course and ask questions later. This same exact situation can be said as true when you see someone dressed as a gang-banger, because despite what you say, dressing a certain way merits a response: if not, company representatives would not bother dressing in business suits before going to work, but shorts and a tee-shirt. Just because someone is Black, Hispanic, or White does not confer profiling. What I'm talking about is an appearance, an attitude, and actions that all state loud and clear: I'm trouble!

just because someone is wearing baggy clothes isn't a justification for harassment by any authority.

I don't believe it's just the look, but the whole demeanor that makes cops suspicious of a person. But based on numbers alone, it's clear Hispanics and Blacks feel racially profiled when the majority of crimes are happening in their neighborhoods.

I would say a more likely reason blacks get in more trouble isnt because of how they dress, but because Amerikkka is still the same racist, patriarchal, xenophobic, sexist, ethnocentric "pile of shit on the hill" nation it was in 1776. It is YOU, who is in fact wrong, and history is proof of that.

Maybe. Like I said before, its possible I live in an isolated section of America that isn't subjected to that type of crap. We (our company) had an electrician move out to Arizona around February of last year and return a few months ago. I saw him just yesterday actually and he told me (he's White btw) that he couldn't stand the part of Phoenix he moved to, that every other block (his words, not mine) had a car with a confederate flag on it and people in every store he went in couldn't stop talking poorly about Hispanic people. He said it made him so sick to his stomach, that he couldn't raise his family there despite how cheap it is to live there compared to California, so he moved back. If that is indeed the type of attitude prevalent in the majority of America, then that makes me very, very sad; actually utterly depressed. I saw that mentality against the Indians in New Mexico when we went to visit my mother's birth town in Gallop. I can't believe that mentality still exists in the US. But I can't believe, I won't believe, that the majority of the US is like that!

[FireIceTalon]

@ Meat I'm by no means a Maoist, but I would agree with most of that article you linked. Crime and poverty are a vicious, endless cycle, and they are both a byproduct and necessitation of the Capitalist mode of production. Racism plays a VERY important role in this system, because it too, is also necessary for state to fulfill its own role as protecting private capital, as one aspect. Another is that such divisions are necessary to hinder working class solidarity so workers are alienated from one another along national, religious and ethnic lines. The ruling class in America has always been predominantly white, wealthy males - from the countries founding to the present. Poverty and our legal system is just a newer and more efficient way of suppressing minorities, instead of outright enslaving them or Jim-Crowe segregation, although poverty in itself is segregation minus the "separate but equal" slogan. It is designed so that minorities, at best, are kept at their station, and at worst, complete hopelessness.

As far as looks go, it is just too easy to use this to flash a badge and gun around. almost every cop I ever met was a vain, egotistical asshole. As far as drugs go, well, that is whole other can of worms I won't get into in this post, since drugs themselves are not a criminal problem, but rather a medical one.

I don't know man. As a Marxist, I've learned to view people very differently from how the average person does. When I see an African American person walk into Starbucks, I don't see an African American person, just a person. The same is true of any other social construct that is used to classify people into groups of any kind. You're a Christian? A Muslim? Nope, to me you are just another human being. Probably the number one virtue of being a Communist, is having a love for all of humanity, regardless of their ethnicity, religious beliefs, gender, sexual preference, whether they have a disability or not, or whatever. Basically, I don't form any judgements or preconceived notions on an individual until I learn something about them by communicating with them.

I just feel like, that we (Communists) have evolved beyond the divisions, stereotypes, ignorance, hatred of those who are viewed as "others", or what we call as "conventional wisdom" within our culture, and we are frustrated as we watch the rest of the world slowly try to catch up to us.

I know you don't want to believe America is this horrible racist and bigoted country, because we were all taught at a very young age that our country was great and that besides a few hiccups, we have a wonderful history. But nothing could be farther from the truth comrade, and the reality is, even now in the 21st century, we are still a very very racist, homophobic, and reactionary country in general. We aren't the only one of course, but for as much chest pounding as we do, and as much as we yell about "American Exceptionalism", we don't have much to show for it.

[Rhydderch Hael]

I find it somewhere less than likely that a spontaneously enraged protester would grab the ol' family RPG-7 from above the fireplace mantel and send a shot into the consulate.

Given the info being put out over the production of said film, I would not discount the possibility that a terrorist cell operating in the L.A. area wagged the dog on this whole thing in order to stir Muslim wrath and Israeli animosity to hold their own special version of a 9/11 memorial.

Why would such folk blaspheme Islam with making the film? Maybe they don't give a hoot about religion, just culture. And they're willing to manipulate religion to strike at a culture.

BTW: Being unable to publicly ID two of the four Americans killed within 24 hours just screams "Company". Gotta dip the jackets, you see.

[kandrathe]

... I'm not sure cultural suppression is your problem. Education is.

This.

I was talking politics today, and someone asked, "How can anyone seriously think of voting in favor of either?" My answer was that we have a serious lack of education -- to the point that the electorate is far too ignorant of even the basics, such as separation of powers, the proper roles of the branches of government, or why we have diplomacy.

I'm fairly jaded today, having suffered the typical barrage of idiot opinion -- my fellow Americans, blustering on about bombing them back to the stone age, again. But seriously... If history is our guide, we are Rome, and the Muslims are the barbarians at the gate -- once they get equivalent military power they'll come for us and sack the city. The better question is how do we get them to turn their guns into plow shares, and assimilate them into our "peaceful" society (if only that were true).

[FireIceTalon]

Well, in 2009 there was about 1/3 of Americans who didn't even know who the Vice President was, so this comes as no surprise really. And while I don't vote either, it is for complete different reasons, obviously, than those who ask such questions. "Lets blow them all back to the stone age".....typical reactionary American Chauvinist comment, though I have heard worse.

[eppie]

The inquisition is hardly the last piece of Christian-inspired psychosis. Explicitly Christian Anti-Jewish pogroms were common in Christian lands well into the 20th century, notably in Russia, where hundreds of thousands were killed.

Jester, well put, the whole post is a very good explanation about was is wrong with the assumptions Ashock, and many others make.

I quoted this particar paragraph because I remember Ashock saying was he is from the Ukraine originally.

If so I am sure you are well aware of the situation there. Kiev is not a nice place to walk around in if you are gay, black, jewish, muslim, communist etc. Same as in countries like Poland.
This may very well be caused by years of communist oppression, but that doesn't make it right to think and behave like that.

Now I am sure that you yourself are not like that (like probably 90% of ukrainians that went abroad (I know many personally) so I guess you wouldn't like us here to say that all ukrainians are violent racists? And you would correctly argue that I was wrong probably.


I really detest muslim extremism, and although the cause and the reason that ther is violence were (explained by Jester) are linked to the poverty and less developed countries it doesn't make it right.
My main problem with your comments is that they are typical of christian westeners who don't manage to look a bit farther. Who don't see that the US is a christian extremist country, that the US if it wants just invades a country.


It is the same discussion people always have about the israel/palastinian conflict.....yes true, the palastinians use terrorism, but don't forget Israel doesn't need to because they have the strongest army in the world relatively speaking. It is not called terrorism but action of war of a free nation, but that doesn't make it any less violent.

[kandrathe]

The inquisition is hardly the last piece of Christian-inspired psychosis. Explicitly Christian Anti-Jewish pogroms were common in Christian lands well into the 20th century, notably in Russia, where hundreds of thousands were killed.

Jester, well put, the whole post is a very good explanation about was is wrong with the assumptions Ashock, and many others make.

I would disagree in that these lands were no more Christian inspired than they were White inspired. The tribal (us versus them) psychosis is ingrained in humanity, and takes effort to overcome (a unifying force greater than the factionalizing forces). It matters little how you discriminate the "US" and the "THEM", but given a difference the two tribes will find a reason to hate and fight the others. This is basic understood Social Identity Theory -- and well documented in experiments that have led ( of formerly equal peers) the in-group to go so far are to be willing to torture the designated out-group. It has little to do with race or religion, and everything to do with positive esteem and rewards showered upon the in-group members by the in-group power elite when they affirm the discrimination. When there are no out-groups to fight, homogenous Christian, or Muslim groups will begin fighting each other (Catholic vs Protestant, Sunni versus Shia, etc.)

We are inherently tribal, and violent.

[Jester]

This may very well be caused by years of communist oppression, but that doesn't make it right to think and behave like that.

I really detest muslim extremism, and although the cause and the reason that ther is violence were (explained by Jester) are linked to the poverty and less developed countries it doesn't make it right.

That wasn't my explanation. The historical causes of religious violence in Ukraine are much more complicated than poverty, or Communism. Bogdan Khmelnytsky lived 200 years before Marx, and most everyone was poor in those days, even in Holland or England, which were the "rich" countries of the day.

I don't purport to be able to explain it, but it's got to be more complicated than "Ukranians are violent people" or "Orthodoxy is a religion of violence." Or "poverty is the cause of discrimination," for that matter.

-Jester

[FireIceTalon]

The inquisition is hardly the last piece of Christian-inspired psychosis. Explicitly Christian Anti-Jewish pogroms were common in Christian lands well into the 20th century, notably in Russia, where hundreds of thousands were killed.

Jester, well put, the whole post is a very good explanation about was is wrong with the assumptions Ashock, and many others make.

I quoted this particar paragraph because I remember Ashock saying was he is from the Ukraine originally.

If so I am sure you are well aware of the situation there. Kiev is not a nice place to walk around in if you are gay, black, jewish, muslim, communist etc. Same as in countries like Poland.
This may very well be caused by years of communist oppression, but that doesn't make it right to think and behave like that.

Now I am sure that you yourself are not like that (like probably 90% of ukrainians that went abroad (I know many personally) so I guess you wouldn't like us here to say that all ukrainians are violent racists? And you would correctly argue that I was wrong probably.


I really detest muslim extremism, and although the cause and the reason that ther is violence were (explained by Jester) are linked to the poverty and less developed countries it doesn't make it right.
My main problem with your comments is that they are typical of christian westeners who don't manage to look a bit farther. Who don't see that the US is a christian extremist country, that the US if it wants just invades a country.


It is the same discussion people always have about the israel/palastinian conflict.....yes true, the palastinians use terrorism, but don't forget Israel doesn't need to because they have the strongest army in the world relatively speaking. It is not called terrorism but action of war of a free nation, but that doesn't make it any less violent.

It is definitely still terrorism, they just don't call it that because it is legitimized by a nation state and its laws. The US and Israel are just as guilty of violence as the Muslim extremists are and vice versa. If people want to stop terrorism, well, Chomsky had a good starting solution: stop participating in it.

[FireIceTalon]

The inquisition is hardly the last piece of Christian-inspired psychosis. Explicitly Christian Anti-Jewish pogroms were common in Christian lands well into the 20th century, notably in Russia, where hundreds of thousands were killed.

Jester, well put, the whole post is a very good explanation about was is wrong with the assumptions Ashock, and many others make.

I would disagree in that these lands were no more Christian inspired than they were White inspired. The tribal (us versus them) psychosis is ingrained in humanity, and takes effort to overcome (a unifying force greater than the factionalizing forces). It matters little how you discriminate the "US" and the "THEM", but given a difference the two tribes will find a reason to hate and fight the others. This is basic understood Social Identity Theory -- and well documented in experiments that have led ( of formerly equal peers) the in-group to go so far are to be willing to torture the designated out-group. It has little to do with race or religion, and everything to do with positive esteem and rewards showered upon the in-group members by the in-group power elite when they affirm the discrimination. When there are no out-groups to fight, homogenous Christian, or Muslim groups will begin fighting each other (Catholic vs Protestant, Sunni versus Shia, etc.)

We are inherently tribal, and violent.

Not really. Before the Inquisition, Native American relationships among most tribes was relatively stable and peaceful. Conflict between groups of people is the result of social, not intrinsic, constructs and material conditions, especially when class antagonisms are involved. It has absolutely nothing to do with "human nature".

[Jester]

Before the Inquisition, Native American relationships among most tribes was relatively stable and peaceful.

Could you give a source for this? It certainly doesn't match anything I understand about indigenous Americans, who fought with one another as frequently as anyone else on the planet.

Strictly speaking, the Inquisition had no jurisdiction over "indios" for nearly all its activities, and was primarily directed at other racial groups.

-Jester

[eppie]

That wasn't my explanation. The historical causes of religious violence in Ukraine are much more complicated than poverty, or Communism. Bogdan Khmelnytsky lived 200 years before Marx, and most everyone was poor in those days, even in Holland or England, which were the "rich" countries of the day.

I don't purport to be able to explain it, but it's got to be more complicated than "Ukranians are violent people" or "Orthodoxy is a religion of violence." Or "poverty is the cause of discrimination," for that matter.

-Jester

It is, poverty and being less developed are facilitators. If joining a terrorist organisation is the only thing you can do to have some excitement more people will choose to do so. Especially if there is no justice system that will punish you for it.
If you are from a country where most people have no education and no real access to media it is a pretty logical step to think that you religion is the best and that (if someone tells you) you have to kill the other.

Only in more developed and stable countries you find larger groups of people that can think more as an individual and place themselves mentally in the position of another person. But this is still no garantee.

[kandrathe]

The US and Israel are just as guilty as violent as the Muslim extremists are.

... and for stooping to their barbarity... shame on us. What is the difference between a shoulder launched RPG killing innocents or a Hellfire missile fired from a UAV killing innocents. We all feel justified to execute each other.

Besides, there are worse things than death. Like Marx... Richard Marx...

[ShadowHM]

We do seem to get all excited and draw the usual knee-jerk conclusions from initial reports, don't we, Ashock? (I know it isn't just you that does this. It is a human trait, exacerbated by the speed at which 'news' gets to us.)

I doubt that any of us will really find out the entire story even in the long run, but second thoughts reported today by the CBC suggest that the attack in Benghazi might not have been quite as spontaneous or religion-based as the initial report suggests.

Deadly U.S. consulate attack in Libya possibly planned

[shoju]

That's... Just a slice? Violence that has happened in 4 countries, on 2 continents? That's.... JUST A SLICE?

No, you see - they weren't true Christians and thus not representative of Christianity as a whole. Those Muslims though - they're all the same.

1 or 2 ppl are not representative.

1 or 2 thousand are much better at that.

1 or 2 million....

Ok Ashock, I hate to be the one to break it to you, but there are over 1 BILLION (Saying it like Dr. Evil for emphasis) Muslims in the world. There are somewhere around 450 - 600 million Christians/Catholics in the world.

So if 1 or 2 million is a representative "sample" of the BEELION Muslisms, then we need just thousands (hundreds of) to characterize the Christians.

So go back, and actually read the stuff that I linked, and realize that you sir, are just out and out wrong, and exhibiting bigoted behavior.

And I didn't even come out and expressly bring up Ireland. I tried to stick more with the "fringe / Extreme" type of groups, and I'm not sure if what happened in Ireland is fringe or extreme.

[Mavfin]

How many people do you think still remember "99 Luftballons" or how about the fact that it was redone specifically for the US as "99 Red Ballons" with it's lyrics translated to English?

Are you not remembering that the version of 99 Luftballons that was a hit in the US *was* the German language version? I hate it when a radio station plays the English version, because it just doesn't sound right. And I know all those things you mentioned, Lissa. My kids know, too. I don't think of people's ignorance of all the things you wrote as 'German culture suppression', but rather as 'general cultural ignorance' on the part of the masses, which is pretty common these days in the US, sadly.

[kandrathe]

And I didn't even come out and expressly bring up Ireland. I tried to stick more with the "fringe / Extreme" type of groups, and I'm not sure if what happened in Ireland is fringe or extreme.

Also, not really a "religion" thing, although religion is an attribute of difference between the waring tribes. Their battle is political, for self determination, and a sovereign Ireland free from Britannia. Some of the origin of the feud goes back to Henry VIII and Vatican decisions, however the current republican revolutionary movement is not very motivated by religious difference. What congregation you identify with would clarify and reinforce animosity and discrimination against rival groups. But, any social organization could serve the same purpose, such as, those that hang out at Mrs Robinsons pub in Dublin and those that don't.

[Bolty]

But, any social organization could serve the same purpose, such as, those that hang out at Mrs Robinsons pub in Dublin and those that don't.

Right - many people blame religions for such violent tribe-vs-tribe atrocities, but I believe the reality is that if all religions ceased to exist, humanity would just find something else to latch on to for identity (nationalism a prime choice and also a cause of so many wars). We seem to have a primal need to belong to a group of some kind, which automatically separates us into "us vs them" thinking. Enlightened minds will try to suppress such instincts, but it's tied deeply into our mental structures because tribal groups enhance survival and the passing on of genes.

I mean, either you like Animaniacs, or you don't like Animaniacs.

[shoju]

And I didn't even come out and expressly bring up Ireland. I tried to stick more with the "fringe / Extreme" type of groups, and I'm not sure if what happened in Ireland is fringe or extreme.

Also, not really a "religion" thing, although religion is an attribute of difference between the waring tribes. Their battle is political, for self determination, and a sovereign Ireland free from Britannia. Some of the origin of the feud goes back to Henry VIII and Vatican decisions, however the current republican revolutionary movement is not very motivated by religious difference. What congregation you identify with would clarify and reinforce animosity and discrimination against rival groups. But, any social organization could serve the same purpose, such as, those that hang out at Mrs Robinsons pub in Dublin and those that don't.

Which is the biggest reason I left it off. It's origins, and the like have roots in "religion", but its... not as big a piece of the puzzle as the stuff I previously linked.