US ambassador killed over a film

[DeeBye]

Kitchener, Ontario used to be Berlin, Ontario. Then WWI happened.

They still have a great annual Octoberfest!

[Lissa]

In this case, it's both. There is a well known instance of anti-german rhetoric in the US, especially right after WWI. Ty Cobb was infamously caught sliding into second base against a player of German descent screaming "German! German!" with his spikes set to dig into the leg of the player and crowd at the game was cheering Cobb on. Over the last 100 years, German culture has been both suppressed and opressed within the US.

Kitchener, Ontario used to be Berlin, Ontario. Then WWI happened.

However, my sense is that the post WWII culture was quite different from WWI. Has there been any serious anti-German sentiment since the immediate post-war period? Nobody is attacked or criticized for the schnitzel-and-lederhosen stuff, are they?

-Jester

Up to 1970 there was still some annimosity, but so many of German descent have Americanized that you don't see it hardly at all any more. The thing is, outside of a few very specific instances, German heritage culture doesn't exist in the US anymore whereas you can see celebrations of other cultures within the US and considering a little over 1/6th of the US population has German ancestory, that's pretty telling. So yes, German culture is the most suppressed culture in the US.

[FireIceTalon]

In this case, it's both. There is a well known instance of anti-german rhetoric in the US, especially right after WWI. Ty Cobb was infamously caught sliding into second base against a player of German descent screaming "German! German!" with his spikes set to dig into the leg of the player and crowd at the game was cheering Cobb on. Over the last 100 years, German culture has been both suppressed and opressed within the US.

Kitchener, Ontario used to be Berlin, Ontario. Then WWI happened.

However, my sense is that the post WWII culture was quite different from WWI. Has there been any serious anti-German sentiment since the immediate post-war period? Nobody is attacked or criticized for the schnitzel-and-lederhosen stuff, are they?

-Jester

Up to 1970 there was still some annimosity, but so many of German descent have Americanized that you don't see it hardly at all any more. The thing is, outside of a few very specific instances, German heritage culture doesn't exist in the US anymore whereas you can see celebrations of other cultures within the US and considering a little over 1/6th of the US population has German ancestory, that's pretty telling. So yes, German culture is the most suppressed culture in the US.

This is circular logic at its best, whitewashing of history at worst. So because a culture isn't predominant in a country, that equates it to being the most suppressed demographic? I have to disagree completely. Germans just by the fact their ethnicity is caucasian have it much better than most minority groups, by default. Again, two-thirds of the prison population is minorities, consisting mostly of African Americans and Latinos. Nor are Germans racially profiled, slandered, economically suppressed, or the victims of xenophobic, violent hate crimes that minority groups are.

I would much rather be a German living in America than be a Middle Eastern or any other minority living in America, especially right now.

[Ashock]

That's... Just a slice? Violence that has happened in 4 countries, on 2 continents? That's.... JUST A SLICE?

No, you see - they weren't true Christians and thus not representative of Christianity as a whole. Those Muslims though - they're all the same.

1 or 2 ppl are not representative.

1 or 2 thousand are much better at that.

1 or 2 million....

[Jester]

Up to 1970 there was still some annimosity, but so many of German descent have Americanized that you don't see it hardly at all any more. The thing is, outside of a few very specific instances, German heritage culture doesn't exist in the US anymore whereas you can see celebrations of other cultures within the US and considering a little over 1/6th of the US population has German ancestory, that's pretty telling. So yes, German culture is the most suppressed culture in the US.

No Oktoberfest? No Lutheran churches? No Bratwurst, or Hamburgers? No Nena, Kraftwerk, Rammstein, not to mention Beethoven or Brahms? No Gunter Grass, no Franz Kafka, no Gothe?

Methinks you have simply normalized all the parts of German culture that are now "american" to the point where they are invisible.

-Jester

[Lissa]

Up to 1970 there was still some annimosity, but so many of German descent have Americanized that you don't see it hardly at all any more. The thing is, outside of a few very specific instances, German heritage culture doesn't exist in the US anymore whereas you can see celebrations of other cultures within the US and considering a little over 1/6th of the US population has German ancestory, that's pretty telling. So yes, German culture is the most suppressed culture in the US.

No Oktoberfest? No Lutheran churches? No Bratwurst, or Hamburgers? No Nena, Kraftwerk, Rammstein, not to mention Beethoven or Brahms? No Gunter Grass, no Franz Kafka, no Gothe?

Methinks you have simply normalized all the parts of German culture that are now "american" to the point where they are invisible.

-Jester

And how many people do you think would understand Lutheran is from Germany? How many people would know that Bratwurst or Hamburgers are German? How many people do you think still remember "99 Luftballons" or how about the fact that it was redone specifically for the US as "99 Red Ballons" with it's lyrics translated to English? How about that Kraftwerk is not an American band. Likewise, Rammstein is not an American band. It's also quite hard to seperate out Brahms, Bach, Beethoven, and Wagner from classical music. How much are Grass, Kafka, or Gothe required reading in American schools? Begin to see the point?

Methinks you are taking too much for granted and not recognizing that German culture within the US has been supressed and repressed to near non-existance even though 1/6th of the US population's ancestory is German.

[kandrathe]

Ms. Clinton is now saying that the event in Libya was most likely a planned terrorist attack to coincide with 9/11. Not a response to an anti-muslim propaganda film. Carry on. I'm off to celebrate Oktoberfest at the Gasthof Zur Gemutlichkeit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAqh04ecf3g

...required reading in American schools?

They require reading? Things are looking up.

[LochnarITB]

Gasthof Zur Gemutlichkeit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAqh04ecf3g

Zicke, zacke, zicke, zacke, hoi, hoi, hoi!

[Lissa]

In this case, it's both. There is a well known instance of anti-german rhetoric in the US, especially right after WWI. Ty Cobb was infamously caught sliding into second base against a player of German descent screaming "German! German!" with his spikes set to dig into the leg of the player and crowd at the game was cheering Cobb on. Over the last 100 years, German culture has been both suppressed and opressed within the US.

Kitchener, Ontario used to be Berlin, Ontario. Then WWI happened.

However, my sense is that the post WWII culture was quite different from WWI. Has there been any serious anti-German sentiment since the immediate post-war period? Nobody is attacked or criticized for the schnitzel-and-lederhosen stuff, are they?

-Jester

Up to 1970 there was still some annimosity, but so many of German descent have Americanized that you don't see it hardly at all any more. The thing is, outside of a few very specific instances, German heritage culture doesn't exist in the US anymore whereas you can see celebrations of other cultures within the US and considering a little over 1/6th of the US population has German ancestory, that's pretty telling. So yes, German culture is the most suppressed culture in the US.

This is circular logic at its best, whitewashing of history at worst. So because a culture isn't predominant in a country, that equates it to being the most suppressed demographic? I have to disagree completely. Germans just by the fact their ethnicity is caucasian have it much better than most minority groups, by default. Again, two-thirds of the prison population is minorities, consisting mostly of African Americans and Latinos. Nor are Germans racially profiled, slandered, economically suppressed, or the victims of xenophobic, violent hate crimes that minority groups are.

I would much rather be a German living in America than be a Middle Eastern or any other minority living in America, especially right now.

I guess you completely missed the point then. What you are seeing with other cultures now in US is what the German culture went through in the past 100 years in the US. Prior to the outbreak of WWI, there was a heavy German culture in the US, after WWI it has dwindle to near non-existance in the US. Likewise, most Germans Anglicanized their names around WWI to hide their ancestory and not be persecuted. So, while you're not seeing it now, it happened and you don't see a major German cultural presence in the US anymore like you do with the Irish, the Lantinos, even the various Native American tribes still are holding on to their culture (some better than others). German culture in the US is effectively dead however due to the same Xenophobia you enspouce to be occuring now because it already happened to German culture in the past. I wonder if you realize that Pennsylvania Dutch was originaly Pennsylvania Deutch, this is the kind of thing that has happened to the German cultue in the US and considering 1/6th of the US population owes it's ancestory to Germany, that's telling however you want to try and whitewash it or not.

[FireIceTalon]

Yea, I'm not buying it. Sorry. Especially considering that blacks and Native Americans have been suffering in American society for, oh, 400+ years now?

[Taem]

Not to mention it is mostly blacks, Latinos, and middle-eastern people who are racially profiled, and victims of hate crimes. Middle easterns and Latinos probably suffer the most from xenophobia.

I feel myself entering a highly agitated rant mode: I really hate it, no I loathe it, when people assume that just because a certain culture of people are incarcerated, that means most American's are racially profiling them. The honest to god truth is many immigrants and illegal Latinos from Mexico are poor, and poverty breeds crime and that's a fact! Why a good majority of blacks are still living in poverty for so long, I really have no idea. Here in California, specifically on the south coast, there is no discrimination or racism blatantly present; that's not to say there aren't a few idiots running around waving whatever banners they can think up, but you just don't see it around here! Maybe where I'm from is not a slice of the America most people are familiar with, but from what I've witnessed with my own eyes, the majority of the people doing these crimes are in fact those living at the poverty level, which happen to be Latinos no speaking much English and working agricultural jobs (and their kids living in this condition). The majority of black kids in LA dress the part of their contemporaries which happen to be rappers dressed like thugs because lets face it, when the most popular group of the type of people you associate yourself with strike a certain look, then as a young adult, you will imitate that look. This is the only reason I can think that blacks might be getting in more trouble than Caucasian, Asians, or other minority groups in the US, but to be racially profiled? Your so wrong! In LA, these individuals dressed like gang-bangers, staring down cops, hiding their hands deep in their pockets to give the impression they are hiding a gun, and even running away from cops and then they get upset when they are pulled over saying, "I wasn't doing anything, I'm being discriminated against!" I've actually seen this shit in LA! It's the real deal! If your stupid enough to dress the part of a murderer or gang-banger, then you deserve to be searched for drugs or weapons in order to protect those not wanting to cause trouble. Dressing the part for trouble only asks for trouble, and as a law-abiding citizen, I expect the police to search people who intentionally dress like criminals. You don't see business men wearing pants down to their crotch, wife-beaters, untied shoes, and teardrop tattoos strutting down the street looking like they are doing a freaking limbo with their hand held in their pocket holding something and running from police... And to be fair, when Caucasians and Asians dress this way, they also get checked. It just so happens from what I've seen with my own eyes in LA, certain types of people really do dress the part, and it's not about no racial profiling, but protecting law-abiding citizens from CRIMINALS!!! What don't you get?

EDIT: So you want to talk about racial profiling for Native Americans (i.e. Indians not from India) or Arabic/Islamic people? My rant does not go there sorry. I've never had any experience with either culture other than the people I've met, and there's good and bad people. I just don't see this "racial profiling" thing happening, at least not here where I'm from, sorry. I really don't.

QUICK-EDIT: For clarity, racial profiling resulting in discrimination, but you already knew that Kandrathe .

[kandrathe]

I just don't see this "racial profiling" thing happening, at least not here where I'm from, sorry. I really don't.

I am racially profiled whenever I fly to Amsterdam, alone, on the red eye, and wear my London Fog trench coat, hat and leather carry on. I guess it must scream SPY -- or DRUG SMUGGLER -- or IDIOT!!!

[DeeBye]

1 or 2 ppl are not representative.

1 or 2 thousand are much better at that.

1 or 2 million....

Even if there are 2 million Muslims committing actual acts of violence against non-muslims every day (there aren't - not even close), that's like 0.13% of the total Muslim population.

I bet more than 0.13% of Christians enjoy horse porn, so by your logic all Christians enjoy horse porn.

[kandrathe]

I bet more than 0.13% of Christians enjoy horse porn, so by your logic all Christians enjoy horse porn.

No TRUE Christian could enjoy... Oh, nevermind... A murderous lynch mob is a murderous lynch mob whether they amass in Cairo Illinois or Cairo Egypt. What was missing was the brave Lawman facing down the crowd explaining the need for "the rule of law" and due process (or Egyptian military in a pinch). The Libya thing was a gang of thugs (we call Al Queda), more like the religiously oriented Ku Klux Klan groups...

[FireIceTalon]

Not to mention it is mostly blacks, Latinos, and middle-eastern people who are racially profiled, and victims of hate crimes. Middle easterns and Latinos probably suffer the most from xenophobia.

I feel myself entering a highly agitated rant mode: I really hate it, no I loathe it, when people assume that just because a certain culture of people are incarcerated, that means most American's are racially profiling them. The honest to god truth is many immigrants and illegal Latinos from Mexico are poor, and poverty breeds crime and that's a fact! Why a good majority of blacks are still living in poverty for so long, I really have no idea. Here in California, specifically on the south coast, there is no discrimination or racism blatantly present; that's not to say there aren't a few idiots running around waving whatever banners they can think up, but you just don't see it around here! Maybe where I'm from is not a slice of the America most people are familiar with, but from what I've witnessed with my own eyes, the majority of the people doing these crimes are in fact those living at the poverty level, which happen to be Latinos no speaking much English and working agricultural jobs (and their kids living in this condition). The majority of black kids in LA dress the part of their contemporaries which happen to be rappers dressed like thugs because lets face it, when the most popular group of the type of people you associate yourself with strike a certain look, then as a young adult, you will imitate that look. This is the only reason I can think that blacks might be getting in more trouble than Caucasian, Asians, or other minority groups in the US, but to be racially profiled? Your so wrong! In LA, these individuals dressed like gang-bangers, staring down cops, hiding their hands deep in their pockets to give the impression they are hiding a gun, and even running away from cops and then they get upset when they are pulled over saying, "I wasn't doing anything, I'm being discriminated against!" I've actually seen this shit in LA! It's the real deal! If your stupid enough to dress the part of a murderer or gang-banger, then you deserve to be searched for drugs or weapons in order to protect those not wanting to cause trouble. Dressing the part for trouble only asks for trouble, and as a law-abiding citizen, I expect the police to search people who intentionally dress like criminals. You don't see business men wearing pants down to their crotch, wife-beaters, untied shoes, and teardrop tattoos strutting down the street looking like they are doing a freaking limbo with their hand held in their pocket holding something and running from police... And to be fair, when Caucasians and Asians dress this way, they also get checked. It just so happens from what I've seen with my own eyes in LA, certain types of people really do dress the part, and it's not about no racial profiling, but protecting law-abiding citizens from CRIMINALS!!! What don't you get?

EDIT: So you want to talk about racial profiling for Native Americans (i.e. Indians not from India) or Arabic/Islamic people? My rant does not go there sorry. I've never had any experience with either culture other than the people I've met, and there's good and bad people. I just don't see this "racial profiling" thing happening, at least not here where I'm from, sorry. I really don't.

Uff. I almost threw up my dinner reading this post. I'm not even sure where to begin. Almost everything presented here is based on meaningless anecdotes that fester with loaded fallacies (especially the appeal-to-authority types), stereotypes, preconceived notions, and just gobs of plain inaccuracies. Really, this post stinks of white patriarchism, and is a good example of why I hate America and its crummy values. Overall, a pretty offensive, misinformed, miserable, and downright nauseating post to read - not even sure why I am meriting a response to it.

I didn't know criminals dress a certain way, or that one had to dress a certain way to be a criminal. Or even that ones character is defined at all, by how they dress. This is news to me. Second, just because someone is wearing baggy clothes isn't a justification for harassment by any authority. So people who dress in baggy clothes are all potentially criminals and subject to inspection? Really? This is the same "blame the victim" mentality, sociological ignorance and cultural psychosis that runs rampant in this country, like when people say a woman who is dressed scantly must be a prostitute, or if she is sexually harassed or raped she "had it coming" because of how she dresses. Let me ask you something, are you the type of person where you cross over to the other side of the street if you see a black man walking toward you on the same side as you are? Racial profiling doesn't result in discrimination, but rather because of it.

The truth is, the real criminals are the ones in the suits legitimized by the state - essentially a legalized mafia - but hey, there is nothing wrong with white-collar, corporate crime, right? That is why we racial profile anyone who is dark skinned with brown eyes and dark hair, but not one Wall Street crony is in prison after the shit they pulled 4 years ago.

I can think of a better reason why minorities get into more trouble than whites: Because Amerikkka is the same racist, patriarchal, xenophobic, sexist, homophobic "PILE OF SHIT ON THE HILL nation" that it was in 1776. Fact. The dress code thing is just an excuse for pigs to pathetically justify their racist ways, and wave their guns and badges around. It is YOU, who is in fact wrong, and history is proof of that. Also, I myself am FROM Los Angeles, lived there for virtually all 34 years of my life, and I definitely saw this type of shit go down - even if Los Angeles isn't as racist as say, Texas. You deny racial profiling which occurs in this country on a daily basis but doesn't make the news, what are you going to deny next? Evolution? That the Holocaust never happened? The moon landing? It isn't about protecting law-abiding citizens, it's about abusing legitimized power to control and exploit groups of people that are viewed as "different". Cops need to add the words "the Bourgeois" after the "To Protect and Serve" slogan on their cars. You say poverty breeds crime....what breeds poverty? I'll tell you. A little word called Capitalism.

[DeeBye]

A murderous lynch mob is a murderous lynch mob whether they amass in Cairo Illinois or Cairo Egypt. What was missing was the brave Lawman facing down the crowd explaining the need for "the rule of law" and due process (or Egyptian military in a pinch). The Libya thing was a gang of thugs (we call Al Queda), more like the religiously oriented Ku Klux Klan groups...

Absolutely. The difference between the radicals in volatile middle east countries and radicals in the US is that the US actually has the ability and motivation to squash violent radical activities. Thugs like this do exist in the US (Stormfront for example - not going to link there), but they can't/won't actually act on their threats of violence due to the fact that the US will put them in prison.

Stuff like this can happen in the US, like during the LA riots back in the 90's. Admittedly this wasn't religiously motivated, but it was racially motivated which is a pretty decent equivalent.

[kandrathe]

Stuff like this can happen in the US

Senseless violence with little cause?

Like... http://www.voanews.com/content/a-13-a-20...88801.html

[Jester]

And how many people do you think would understand Lutheran is from Germany? How many people would know that Bratwurst or Hamburgers are German? How many people do you think still remember "99 Luftballons" or how about the fact that it was redone specifically for the US as "99 Red Ballons" with it's lyrics translated to English? How about that Kraftwerk is not an American band. Likewise, Rammstein is not an American band. It's also quite hard to seperate out Brahms, Bach, Beethoven, and Wagner from classical music. How much are Grass, Kafka, or Gothe required reading in American schools? Begin to see the point?

You mean, the point that enormous slices of German culture have been so well integrated (and so little suppressed) that they appear to be American (or "generic" or "universal") to Americans? Why, yes, I do get that point. I think I said it here:

Methinks you have simply normalized all the parts of German culture that are now "american" to the point where they are invisible.

-Jester

[DeeBye]

Stuff like this can happen in the US

Senseless violence with little cause?

Like... http://www.voanews.com/content/a-13-a-20...88801.html

What supreme deity did those people pray to? This is clearly important to this thread.

[Lissa]

And how many people do you think would understand Lutheran is from Germany? How many people would know that Bratwurst or Hamburgers are German? How many people do you think still remember "99 Luftballons" or how about the fact that it was redone specifically for the US as "99 Red Ballons" with it's lyrics translated to English? How about that Kraftwerk is not an American band. Likewise, Rammstein is not an American band. It's also quite hard to seperate out Brahms, Bach, Beethoven, and Wagner from classical music. How much are Grass, Kafka, or Gothe required reading in American schools? Begin to see the point?

You mean, the point that enormous slices of German culture have been so well integrated (and so little suppressed) that they appear to be American (or "generic" or "universal") to Americans? Why, yes, I do get that point. I think I said it here:

Methinks you have simply normalized all the parts of German culture that are now "american" to the point where they are invisible.

-Jester

Try again, being normalized is the whole point of being suppressed. When you can't identify it from it's origin, it means you've suppressed the origin. Why would so many Germans Angelicanize their names then if they felt that it would harm them to keep with the original German names? That's the whole point of suppressing, to keep from being repressed for something you are. The cultural identify has been lost. If you walk up to someone and ask them what country Lasanga originally came from, they'll likely tell you Italy. If only a small number can actually identify where something came from, that means that the culture has been suppressed.