You Hardcore guys are crazy!

[mistique]

Hey all,

Been playing most of the classes, started with DH, died a lot on Belial and heaps more on Diablo.
Started Nightmare and was getting my ass kicked by elites in cellars, they hurt in confined area's.
Switched to Bar, which i'm enjoying more, only died on Belial once, got twin arm smashed, otherwise was great until Nightmare.
But, I've found that getting better, ie Legendary's, made a huge change in my fortunes.
Also, it's easier to get better stuff now that there's so many of the same items out there.

But, you Hardcore guys amaze me, i'd never even want to try it, i've had enough deaths due to bad lag or just unlucky hits or elites combo powers to want to spend all that time on something that i can lose in a second.
No idea how you guys can do it, Rock on Dudes!

Bar skills i'm using are M1 Cleave w/ Scattering Blast
M2 Whirlwind w/ Wind Shear
1 Ground Stomp w/ Wrenching Smash
2 Revenge w/ Vengeance is mine
3 Ignore Pain w/ Mob Rule
4 Earthquake w/ The Mountain's Call

On elites+ bosses Ground stomp to stun and draw closer, then Earthquake for the Dot and Ignore Pain for safety.
Most elites don't survive that.

Luck all.

[Zombie]

Hardcore is a different beast all together, it's true. Although I've always seen these loose your characters modes as a colossal waste of time. There's too much left to random chance. It doesn't matter how good you are if the server lags for half a second and you die to fire chains or some bullshit in Hell or whatever. Fifty hours gone? No thanks.

[Kevin]

Hardcore is a different beast all together, it's true. Although I've always seen these loose your characters modes as a colossal waste of time. There's too much left to random chance. It doesn't matter how good you are if the server lags for half a second and you die to fire chains or some bullshit in Hell or whatever. Fifty hours gone? No thanks.

If you are a player that only gets entertainment out of Inferno difficulty (or Hell or Nightmare) then sure, some of those hours are "gone" because you were only trudging through them to get to a place where you find entertainment value. The 50 hours is only "gone" if you put no or much less value on those hours. If you got no entertainment out of those 50 hours then sure they are gone, but for me that seems crazy, I'd have to get a lot out of the later hours of play to make up for getting nothing or very little out of the earlier hours.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying there is anything out of whack with that point of view. I've got non hardcore characters too, and they are getting more playing time because they provide a different type of entertainment value. But my value per hour in games tends to go down as the game progression slows down and the grinding takes over, not up.

Since each person gets value out of different things they value certain modes more than others. Having every skill unlocked and being able to change around specs and see the different interactions might be something that provides a lot of entertainment for someone, and yeah hardcore would not be a good choice, because they could lose high value options after gaining them. Some people get more value out of the leveling process than others, in which case hardcore can provide more value because once they hit 60 they are likely to stop playing that toon anyway.

Hardcore players tend to get a lot of value out of clearly seeing that they were able to meet the challenges, play without any major mistakes, etc. Yes you can get the same from non hardcore, but the certainty that if you die, it's over, adds extra thrill for some people, so they get more entertainment return in that hour of play time. Some people that just adds stress and lowers the value. Some it doesn't add or detract anything.

My interest in hardcore is dropping in part because I was getting a lot of value out of succeeding at content I had never seen before, since I was doing my first play through in hardcore. Well now that I've done that, I'm getting a bit less value. Since I also value being able to just toy around with various skill combinations, and the chance of failing with something I'm just monkeying with causing permanent death isn't appealing, I'm leveling a SC toon. But leveling in SC is somewhat less entertaining than it is in HC. Which means I fully get "wasted" hours.

Hopefully that wall clears up why most HC players don't ever feel a death wasted or lost anything for them. They were getting value from all the time up to that point and not really trying to reach a point where they could get significantly more value per time spent. It's not for everyone, and it's not better. It's just different.

This is also why HC players tend to not twink as much either, in part because removing the challenge in those earlier levels removes some or even much of the value they get from playing. Of course that isn't true for everyone and there certainly can be more value at higher levels for some HC players so getting there quicker, matters.

[Zombie]

I know why others get enjoyment out of it; I was just stating my views on it, heh. I'm not the type of player who only gets enjoyment out of Inferno... all my characters have been 60 by the end of Hell, then I start a new class. Inferno is just stupid hard for me and I know it's because I'm not 'geared' up, but I don't want to be 'geared' up. Hell is the best for me and I have a great time taking different classes that far. Hey man, if you have fun in Hardcore, more power to how you play your game.

[Archon_Wing]

I really can't imagine soloing with a caster character in hc at this point. The long leave game timer means any lag spike will kill you. And the servers are pretty awful right now. It's not just my ISP-- my friends are from across the country and we all experienced it all at once, and many people lose their toons due to an infamous lag spike lately.

I just disconnected in front of some enemies and my heart sank. Fortunately my templar probably did his job with stun/intervene and saved my wizard from biting the dust. That was just nightmare in front of a white pack-- if it was later vs an elite, I'd die even if I was overgeared.

I've started to play HC just because I found SC increasingly boring and there's nowhere to go. This will be a nice distraction, and actually I played hc in D2 mostly. I just don't trust the servers and game itself at this point enough to play it 100% though. I have to admit-- I've been really lucky. Can't really escape this all the time-- it's a matter of when, not if. I've never lost a hardcore character in either Diablo 2 or 3, so it'll probably be saddening when it happens.

[ViralSpiral]

While we've got a HC thread here - how do you all manage Belial? Every difficulty except Normal he always kills me at least one. His fists hardly ever hit me, if at all. I can either corner squeeze or blow my damage mitigator against his breath. But when he fills the platform full of poison puddles, they tend to last over ten seconds and do insane damage. I had to eventually join a public game to kill him in Hell on a L57 Wizard with 245 poison resist and 34K hp and 63% or so DR. Those poison pools could drop me in five seconds flat through 15K of DSkin and the above stats. Kiting almost never works because he turns 90% of the platform into puddles, and I'm rarely anywhere near the safe 10% when he starts. No one else seems to find him the brick wall I do. Butcher's easy if you stay near the edges of panels so you can hop off if they light up, Azmodan is a joke at a distance, and Diablo's melee is so bad he'll back off to use his ranged attacks. Belial gets me every time though.

[Elric of Grans]

I do not think I have ever suffered a death to Belial. The meteor attack requires careful attention. Yes, meteors. The `puddles' are letting you know where he is targeting, and how long until it hits (the visual effect changes over time). It is safe to stand in them before the meteor hits. Watch the timing on them, then stand still until you need to move. Use movement skills (teleport, leap, vault) if in a pinch. Once you learn the pattern, it is very easy to get through that without taking a hit. The hardest part of Belial, in my opinion, is how you need to be built for taking on a group of enemies at the start, then focus on a single target at the end. It requires a nicely balanced build, unlike the other bosses who you can put together a cheap anti-boss build for.

[ViralSpiral]

Huh. I've never seen a meteor graphic in that fight. I guess I must lag between the time the puddles start and the time the meteor hits. Sort of explains how I die so quickly.

[Frag]

Hardcore just takes patience and paying attention Mist, you've proven that you have those beyond a doubt repeatedly in our raiding. Yes, we lose characters to lag, to server hangs, to bugs, but that's something we accept before we start playing. If you have a longterm view, a few bumps along the way are surprisingly pleasant.

[Concillian]

It's just a different mentality. Also it's a completely different community if you play in public games.... COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. Way less "typical internet smacktard" people and way more actually normal people.

If you play with the mindset that all time playing the game is time wasted, then you feel less "invested" in a character. I mean eventually you'll hang up Diablo III, and whenever that day comes, any time spent on your softcore character "progression" is just as wasted as the time invested in dead hardcore characters. You lose some characters to server issues, but it's just another opportunity to try something different. Once you look at any time playing the game as "wasted" time, the consequences of playing hardcore are suddenly much less of an issue. It's really just a mindset thing.

Sometimes I feel like skipping normal now though. It really is a bit dull to play through what amounts to a long tutorial with a limited skill-set where all you really need to do to survive is buy VIT gear from the vendors (or keep it in your stash).

[MonTy]

Sometimes I feel like skipping normal now though.

Agreed, to make it more interesting I do one of two things in normal mode. Either I just use gear from drops (no vendor/ah/bs) and full clear, or I try to extreme rush with twinked gear (my best time is around 4 hours).

Also Frag, I have to agree with the OP though. All of you Hardcore guys (and gals) are in fact crazy ;)

[FireIceTalon]

While we've got a HC thread here - how do you all manage Belial? Every difficulty except Normal he always kills me at least one. His fists hardly ever hit me, if at all. I can either corner squeeze or blow my damage mitigator against his breath. But when he fills the platform full of poison puddles, they tend to last over ten seconds and do insane damage. I had to eventually join a public game to kill him in Hell on a L57 Wizard with 245 poison resist and 34K hp and 63% or so DR. Those poison pools could drop me in five seconds flat through 15K of DSkin and the above stats. Kiting almost never works because he turns 90% of the platform into puddles, and I'm rarely anywhere near the safe 10% when he starts. No one else seems to find him the brick wall I do. Butcher's easy if you stay near the edges of panels so you can hop off if they light up, Azmodan is a joke at a distance, and Diablo's melee is so bad he'll back off to use his ranged attacks. Belial gets me every time though.

I had similar issues vs Belial on Inferno with my Wiz, and had to join a group to beat him. But I think the key vs Belial is to have a very offensive build, at least as a Wiz (I can't speak for the other classes): 4 offensive skills, 2 defensive ones. The puddles are indeed very much a pain in the arse, but the best way of dealing with them was to use DS with Crystal Shell rune, and stay near the outer edge of the platform and just run like a mad man, lol. The minute he stuck his arms in the ground, I knew what was coming and casted Crystal Shell immediately and just ran in a zig zag pattern to avoid as many of the explosions as possible. I was able to survive most of the time this way, and the hardest thing about bringing him down was that I was a bit short on DPS. To beat him, I actually ended up forgoing the use of teleport (insane, I know) in favor of another offensive skill. But this was only because we simply were not doing enough damage to him - we would get his health down to about 95% only to have him enrage and we all died in one hit. But when I switched out telly for Venom Hydra, he was a goner. That extra DPS over time really made all the difference.

[Concillian]

The puddles are indeed very much a pain in the arse, but the best way of dealing with them was to use DS with Crystal Shell rune, and stay near the outer edge of the platform and just run like a mad man, lol.

I find it much better to just stand in one spot until one spawns underneth you. Move just as far as you need to and wait for another.

Running too much just seems to get me hurt by the meteors a lot more than just keeping my wits and moving only when necessary.

[FireIceTalon]

Sounds pretty suicidal to me, but if it works for you, by all means do it.

[Elric of Grans]

I do the same as Concillian. If you stand still and only move when you have to, you are unlucky to get hit; if you run around crazy, you take an absolute pummelling. The idea is you can watch what is happening and ensure you are always standing in a safe spot. If you do not take a patient approach to that phase, you are guaranteed to get hit multiple times, and every hit does enormous damage. With a patient approach, it is easy to avoid ever being hit.

[Archon_Wing]

The puddles are indeed very much a pain in the arse, but the best way of dealing with them was to use DS with Crystal Shell rune, and stay near the outer edge of the platform and just run like a mad man, lol.

I find it much better to just stand in one spot until one spawns underneth you. Move just as far as you need to and wait for another.

Running too much just seems to get me hurt by the meteors a lot more than just keeping my wits and moving only when necessary.

This method is far superior, and usually running around like a headless chicken results in even more damage. Save your defense spells like diamond skill and such for when the damned thing hits to minimize the chance for error.

I couldn't beat Belial in inferno without using this tactic

[Frag]

Yep, I do exactly what Conc explained, and never take a hit because of it. If you want a video, lemme know.

[FireIceTalon]

see, I had better luck with the exact opposite tactic. In general, I've found staying mobile vs Belial in ALL phases of the fight is the way to go. Using Diamond Skin AFTER the explosion hits is futile, because if it hits and you dont have it on, you are already dead.

[Concillian]

see, I had better luck with the exact opposite tactic. In general, I've found staying mobile vs Belial in ALL phases of the fight is the way to go. Using Diamond Skin AFTER the explosion hits is futile, because if it hits and you dont have it on, you are already dead.

1) It's like meteor. There's a graphic on the ground, then the damage happens later.

2) Do people really expect to not get hit by a single meteor every time they fight Belial? If you die in one hit, that's a pretty good indication you don't have enough armor / resist.

It can be done, but that'd be pretty insane. Every time I've killed Belial so far on my Wiz, (not inferno yet) I've pretty much facetanked his arm hits and just avoided what I could of the meteors, but I usually still get hit once or twice. Dying in one hit leaves no margin for error.

[FireIceTalon]

see, I had better luck with the exact opposite tactic. In general, I've found staying mobile vs Belial in ALL phases of the fight is the way to go. Using Diamond Skin AFTER the explosion hits is futile, because if it hits and you dont have it on, you are already dead.

1) It's like meteor. There's a graphic on the ground, then the damage happens later.

2) Do people really expect to not get hit by a single meteor every time they fight Belial? If you die in one hit, that's a pretty good indication you don't have enough armor / resist.

It can be done, but that'd be pretty insane. Every time I've killed Belial so far on my Wiz, (not inferno yet) I've pretty much facetanked his arm hits and just avoided what I could of the meteors, but I usually still get hit once or twice. Dying in one hit leaves no margin for error.

With 40k life and 700 resists, 2 explosions will kill you on Inferno. There literally is almost no margin for error. You might be able to tank the meteors on Hell mode, but on Inferno, I promise you wont. Not unless you plan on advancing anyway.