Oh, that melee/ranged divide! Monk struggling Hell.
#1
In playing my Monk, I could not really understand why people complained that Melee was disadvantaged against Ranged. I facerolled Normal and Nightmare quicker and more easily with my Monk than I did my Demon Hunter or Wizard. In Hell, I finally understand. Everything that was hard for ranged was harder with melee, and melee has other issues to worry about in addition! With some effort, I completed Act I/Hell, but entering Act II has been a real eye opener. I found it harder than Act II/Inferno is with my Demon Hunter!

My Monk's basic stats are:
18K Life
4K Armour (base)
17% Block
27% Dodge (base)
30 Resist All [does not drop yet]
2.5K DPS
Base (150) spirit with no regeneration
He is accompanied by the Enchantress (additional armour).

My skills are (and I play without Elective mode):
Crippling Wave/Concussion - a triple debuff: slower movement speed, slower attack speed and reduced damage. It is a nice attack that truly cripples those it hits. I use this as my basic attack. I also just find it a fun attack and very quickly chose it as my Spirit Generator.

Lashing Tail Kick/Sweeping Armada - I have found myself using this a lot in Hell difficulty. Every time I am surrounded, or attacked by more enemies than I am comfortable with, I clear some space and focus on a smaller group.

Serenity/Peaceful Resolve - My key defence. I originally used Blinding Flash, but found I needed the invulnerability by late Nightmare. Now I use it constantly; when I get down to half health or am about to get slaughtered by Arcane Sentries, I pop this. I spend most of my gameplay with this on cooldown. I often feel like I need this *and* Blinding Flash, and possibly Breath of Heaven too Tongue

Dashing Strike/Flying Side Kick - A utility attack. It helps me by locking ranged enemies in place and to get out of nasty things (eg Desecrator, get behind Diablo when he does his Lightning, etc). Whenever I do not want to be where I currently am, this gets me out of there. Useful, but not in every battle. It is the only Technique skill that fits my play style (passive skills like Sweeping Wind are good, but I prefer to press more buttons Tongue).

Seven-Sided Strike/Pandemonium - An attack I use defensively. The invulnerability, when timed right, can allow me to continue applying pressure in situations I would normally need to kite from (eg Frozen, Arcane) or to get around movement-controlling situations (eg Jailer, Waller). Against Elites and Bosses, this thing is almost always on cooldown; I use it against whites if there are a lot of high-life brutes. I often switched this skill around in Normal and Nightmare, but felt the Invulnerability and Stun was necessary against Elites.

Mantra of Evasion/Hard Target - Continuing my defensive strategy by increasing Dodge and Armour. I never let this down if I can avoid it, and I sure as heck notice if I forget to activate it Tongue

Resolve - A further debuff on damage, which probably equates to a bajillion effective health.

Transcendence - I take advantage of the healing in this by trying to time Lashing Tail Kick or Seven-Sided Strike attacks to when I need a quick top-up. It keeps me going when potions are on cool-down.

Sieze the Initiative - More armour, and quite a dramatic amount at that. It is roughly a third of my armour!

Whites are not too bad so far, though the Lacuni are more painful than they were for my Demon Hunter and Wasps are still a pain in the backside to fight. Elites, on the other hand, feel like hammering my head against a wall. Kiting away from effects triggers these enemies to activate their `you cannot hit me lol' modes (eg leap, burrow, etc), and by the time I can get a hit in they activate an ability that forces me to leave again. I quickly have everything on cooldown, along with no Spirit and no way to get in and generate more.

Are my issues gear, build, play-style, or a mix of these?
May the wind pick up your heels and your sword strike true.
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#2
Get more resists. WAY more. They start dropping in nightmare and you need to be stacking them up by the time you hit hell. Pick an element for One with Everything, hit the AH and stack that element for cheap. For Inferno Act 1 you want at least 500+, so think about how to scale that up through hell.

I prefer thunderclap rune if using armada kick, it builds spirit faster so you can spam more kick, and you can teleport to a kicked foe and put more distance/time before the rest of the group can catch up. It can sort of replace dashing strike.
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#3
You don't need resists for hell, at all. Your HP appears to be a bit on the low side, that's what I'd look into fixing. Also, a passive or active to buff your damage might be a bit useful. As melee, specifically, higher dps is more effective health. Also, I noticed you didn't list any life on hit, do you have any?
Hardcore Diablo 1/2/3/4 & Retail/Classic WoW adventurer.
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#4
I didn't bother with resists on my monk until about act 4 hell and even then, I really didn't push hard for it and it was fine. I think your biggest concern is DPS. I think you've gone too far towards the defensive side of things (which means a lot coming from me because I'm a hugely defensive player in any game). Get a little more DPS, spirit regen on either your hat or your weapon (don't really need it on both at that point although if you can get it on both without having to sacrifice much, do so). The more spirit you are able to generate, especially on the shielded mobs, the more your transcendence will help because you can simply spend more spirit. I personally hated dashing strike every time I tried to work it into a build, but I think that's more personal preference than anything, which you stated you like pushing more buttons. =) Really for a monk, your gear is going to determine your build more than anything else. If you're low on DPS, you have to choose more offensive skills to boost it. The quicker things die, the more globes there are and the less incoming damage as the fight progresses and after your defensive skills are on cooldown. Try dropping mantra of evasion for mantra of conviction + overawe if you don't want to get different gear and don't want to change up too many other of your skills. If you find you have extra spirit you can spend, spam the mantra every 3 seconds to help with transcendence healing and make them take that much more damage. Plus, you get to push more buttons. Wink That one change may make more of a difference than you might think.
Intolerant monkey.
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#5
You might not "need" resists but it makes life vastly easier. Vit does not help your pots, transcendence, LoH etc. keep up with damage like resists do. I had the opposite experience to Elric where the DH in hell is giving me more trouble than my monk had, that's because the DH has been pushing dex while my monk pushed resists. I didn't have to scour the AH just yet, but that's because I had been saving up most of the resist gear I had found.

I will concede that high LoH is probably even more effective, particularly with thunderclap vs elites, but much like you guys and resists, I managed to get by with low values until inferno. I also had the benefit of 10%+ attack speed items though, which is harder to find post 1.03.
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#6
I have no life on hit; I have not seen any. I have also not seen Spirit Regen since Normal, oddly.

Increasing life is a straight-forward plan, and one I always keep in mind. I actually thought 18K was pretty good, so it is interesting to know it is low Tongue. Increasing DPS over defense, however... Would you recommend dropping the shield and dual-wield, or are the benefits of the shield too good to pass on (as I am thinking) and I would be better served looking at my skills (such as Mantra of Conviction, as Treesh suggested)?

Last night, my Demon Hunter found some boots with +dex, +vit, +res all that I have passed down to my Monk; he needs a couple of levels before he can use them, but they should be good when he can Smile
May the wind pick up your heels and your sword strike true.
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#7
(06-25-2012, 12:20 AM)Elric of Grans Wrote: I have no life on hit; I have not seen any. I have also not seen Spirit Regen since Normal, oddly.

Increasing life is a straight-forward plan, and one I always keep in mind. I actually thought 18K was pretty good, so it is interesting to know it is low Tongue. Increasing DPS over defense, however... Would you recommend dropping the shield and dual-wield, or are the benefits of the shield too good to pass on (as I am thinking) and I would be better served looking at my skills (such as Mantra of Conviction, as Treesh suggested)?

Last night, my Demon Hunter found some boots with +dex, +vit, +res all that I have passed down to my Monk; he needs a couple of levels before he can use them, but they should be good when he can Smile

I've kept a shield on for a long time for the monk. Mainly because since it had so much dex on it that every time I'd try to put a second weapon on, I'd actually lose DPS.

If you really like how your build currently feels to you, look to upgrade some of your gear. If something feels off about the build, do some minor tweaking. You still won't enjoy hell if you don't enjoy the build you're running so if you don't mind hunting up new gear, go with that option. =)
Intolerant monkey.
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#8
(06-25-2012, 12:20 AM)Elric of Grans Wrote: I have no life on hit; I have not seen any.

Amethysts! Unlike most (all?) other gem effects, each rank almost doubles their in-weapon benefit until you get past Star, so they're very much worth upgrading to that point.

You might also consider trying Mystic Ally, because a second (well, third technically Tongue) target for your enemies to whale on can take a lot of heat off you altogether. SSS is well and good, but I dislike its long cooldown and find it's better to avoid situations requiring a second invulnerability-granting skill altogether, for instance by using LTK to scatter monsters or moving around more.
And the days are not full enough
And the nights are not full enough
And life slips by like a field mouse
____________.Not shaking the grass.
-- Ezra Pound, "And the days are not full enough"
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#9
Hah, forgot about Amethysts Big Grin My current weapon is not socketed, but next good socketed weapon I find I will definitely do that! Checked the Auction House and *anything* I can afford has a dramatic DPS drop. I must have got a pretty decent roll Wink

I used Mystic Ally for a while. I definitely felt it was a good skill, but I wanted to press more buttons Tongue The long cooldown makes it so I am still not pressing it much even now, so it makes perfect sense to switch back. May even be better DPS in the long run!

I jumped onto the Auction House. I bought a Spirit Stone with spirit regen, and replaced my three worst armour items with ones having +dex/+vit/+res modifiers. All cheap (10-15K) upgrades. Not a dramatic change, but slightly better defences, slightly more life and slightly more DPS. I also switched from Mantra of Evasion to Mantra of Conviction/Overawe. Suddenly, it feels like I am playing in Normal difficulty again. The difference is insane! Minor, minor gear upgrade and the whole game feels entirely different. I think I now understand why people say some classes are more gear dependent than others.
May the wind pick up your heels and your sword strike true.
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#10
(06-25-2012, 12:20 AM)Elric of Grans Wrote: Increasing DPS over defense, however... Would you recommend dropping the shield and dual-wield, or are the benefits of the shield too good to pass on (as I am thinking) and I would be better served looking at my skills (such as Mantra of Conviction, as Treesh suggested)?

The first thing I can say looking over your build is that you have a very high requirement for spirit without much of a possibility to generate it. What I mean by this is that you have 3 attack skills that consume spirit, each with it's own uses and purposes and some of them with very high cost associated with them.

There are a couple things that will end up happening with a build with such reliance on spirit generation. First it will force you into untenable positions. You will find that more and more you are low on spirit and cannot effectively put out damage thus forcing you to take more risks to try to generate that spirit to just be able to fight. This is obviously not a good starting point going into fights.

Now, it's possible that with optimized gear and skills you can effectively overcome this downside but that requires very specific gear. It will probably be a much easier and efficient option to trade out some of your spirit consumers for more defensive cooldowns or other skills that are effectively 'passives'. Breath of Heaven is a popular choice that serves both offensive and defensive needs if you spec for the +15% damage buff. I've also heard that many people who use Mystic Ally find it dying constantly. I don't have that issue with my Monk so your milage may vary. I believe that some amount of your stats transfer to the Ally, but I've found that Mystic Ally is hands-down the best defensive skill the Monk has. Again though, it may not be possible to keep it standing at the point you are at right now. Sweeping Wind is an option that often works as passive damage output in that once you put it up you can often keep it rolling through multiple fights. It has a higher initial cost but ends up paying dividends in spirit per damage the longer it is maintained.

All in all, look over the 3 Spirit Consumers that you are using and decide which of those offer the best utility for your build and playstyle and drop at least one (possibly two) of them and swap them in for skills that can fill in more utility. Playing with that many consumers is probably spreading yourself too thin.
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#11
(06-25-2012, 03:26 AM)Elric of Grans Wrote: Suddenly, it feels like I am playing in Normal difficulty again. The difference is insane! Minor, minor gear upgrade and the whole game feels entirely different. I think I now understand why people say some classes are more gear dependent than others.

Glad to hear you've gotten over your hump and can enjoy the monk again. Happy slaying!
Intolerant monkey.
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#12
Bring back blinding flash! I would replace one of the attack moves with it. This skill is amazing, especially when runed with faith in the light which gives a 30% attack bonus for 3 seconds. The double flash rune is also useful before you get Faith in the Light. Combine with serenity and you have much more leeway against attacks.

When you get to inferno, you'll need to get some resists. Vit with no damage reduction is worthless. I had 50k hp in hell mode and died much. Now I have 40k with a lot more resists and armor and don't feel much in act 1 inferno. It's simplest to replace transcendence or resolve with one with everything, and just get one kind of resists as much as you can.
With great power comes the great need to blame other people.
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#13
I would like to also have Blinding Flash, as it was fantastic, but I want to stick with the no Elective mode restriction, and Serenity is impossible to pass over.

I have swapped Seven-Sided Strike for Mystic Ally (Air). Definitely a boost against whites, but he adds nothing against most Elites. Undecided whether or not he is worth it, though it does (as Chesspiece noted) mean I am not spending as much spirit on DPS, leaving me more to spend on positional/defensive skills.
May the wind pick up your heels and your sword strike true.
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#14
Static heals from everything (Transcendence, blaze, serenity, and potion) means you need mitigation more than health.
Resists make life a lot easier. I am still act 1 hell, but 250 resists, dual wield, lower DPS and 11k health I'm doing fine (hardcore). With mantra and enchantress I think I'm around 57% reduction from armor, 40% from resists, and about 37% dodge. DPS is on the low side, around 2k, because my weapons are still lvl 46.

Also, I prefer the added attack speed and Life on Hit from dual wielding compared to a shield. Weapons can have a lot of life on hit. I'm using two that I found in nightmare that each have over 100 life on hit and damage. They were both nice surprises, with decent DPS, socket, a little DEX and BIG life on hit. Was fun to get good drops. I'm probably due for an upgrade before Act 2, but am planning on farming to 60 before leaving Act I anyway. I'm sure something will pop up for me.

I'm using this right now:
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/mo...YXU!ZbbZaa

Deadly reach + Tempest rush + 80% slow is a pretty reliable way to kite / kill dangerous stuff. I did leave a pack of fast / molten / fire chains that was near a tomb entrance and I had no kiting room.

The other nice thing about deadly reach, is that it pierces everything. Waller walls, real walls, etc... it just opens up a lot of defensive positioning possibilities, offers excellent kiting options and keeps time on target high. I would highly recommend getting used to using a move key if you want to use it though, it's very easy to want to move, but click a monster instead.

I can't imagine using a non-elective mode build. Having the heal + serenity is something I can't imagine being without.
I also really like Blinding as a reliable interrupt, but then you need to give up a mobility skill or a large chunk of DPS in the Mystic Ally.
I liked air ally when getting the <1 hour act speeds in normal, but in hell, I prefer fire. More useful on the harder targets. Plus if I get to a good spot for deadly reach, I can re-summon and he does a deadly reach type attack too.
Conc / Concillian -- Vintage player of many games. Deadly leader of the All Pally Team (or was it Death leader?)
Terenas WoW player... while we waited for Diablo III.
And it came... and it went... and I played Hearthstone longer than Diablo III.
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