What if Inferno didn't exist?

[LochnarITB]

What would folks' opinions of the game be if Inferno difficulty did not exist?

In my opinion, Blizzard's biggest design mistake was even including Inferno. It feels to me like players are running smack into "be careful what you wish for". For me, Diablo-esque games have been about the journey but it seems like gamers today are so MMO'ed that they demand "end game" and the only way to provide that, in this type of game, is to provide something nigh on impossible to grind against.

If I had a wayback machine, I'd tell Blizz to:
1) drop Inferno
2) extend the acts
3) make the mobs/quests distribution denser with lower XP reward to slow down progression

I'd like to see people really work to make 60 and finish Hell. They would then do it again with another class, and another, and another. They would then start trying to do the same with self restricted builds. Who could ever enjoy that? Well, back in my day...

YMMV

[FoxBat]

I think they'd need a different respec system that encouraged more rerolling if Inferno was nuked. That also brings up limited character slots though, so it's not easy to fix. It also would do little to solve the farmer's complaints, wherin they get hardly any unique drops, and acquire most of their goods by trading rather than finding.

For me a big advantage of not having to cripple yourself for variant challenge is that you can meet up with random people outside of a set team environment and still have fun.

[Mavfin]

I completely agree on the 'MMOed' viewpoint of 'only endgame matters' so instead of enjoying the game, they rush through as fast as they can, spend hours faceplanting on Inferno, and then get unhappy, rather than enjoying the possibilities of the game. You can pretty clearly see who's doing what even on this forum. Mongo can see the Inferno issues, but he's enjoying the game anyway, knowing that changes are coming, and willing to wait and see. Some others have already given up on it, and some blame it all on the AH.

I would also definitely agree it's a case of 'be careful what you wish for'. People have told Blizzard 'too easy!' for years.

[FireIceTalon]

I dont mind that Inferno difficulty exists, what I take issue with is the cheesy mechanics in it. Most of the elite traits are cheap as hell (regardless of difficulty), but things such as enrage timers only exasperate it even more.

[RiotInferno]

I dont mind that Inferno difficulty exists, what I take issue with is the cheesy mechanics in it. Most of the elite traits are cheap as hell (regardless of difficulty), but things such as enrage timers only exasperate it even more.

I think, that with some slight modifications, 1-60, Normal-Hell, would work just fine. I think the biggest problem that people have, outside of the arse-kicking that is Inferno, is the loot system is just weird. ( I'll expound on this in a different thread, because I don't want to hijack yours )

On my first character, I hit 60 about midway through A3/Hell. So that left another Act and a half where I wasn't really progressing, and that was frustrating. Also, there seems to be that random XP wall around lvl 55ish that just feels super out of place. If the leveling was changed so it took maybe an extra clear of A4 to hit 60, but the progression felt more linear, then I think you could easily say Inferno isn't necessary.

[Kurosu]

I think that people would just complain that it would be too easy then, as Blizzard just can't make everyone happy.

In my opinion the game currently does not have the replay value D2 offered though, because of the differences in the loot system, and various features that were either simplified or outright removed from the game.
I haven't logged on in a while myself, I'm just taking a break and hoping that the patches will make the game more fun to play to me, else I'll just move on.

[Archon_Wing]

If Inferno didn't exist, I'd feel the game was too short. And then the loot system wouldn't be very fun with the 60cap

[ViralSpiral]

Too easy was absolutely true, though. And even here, from what I'm reading, it's still too easy until Inferno, where Blizzard pulled their patented "overfix" and now it's (slightly, even post-nerf) a bit too hard. Or requires more than a few weeks of farming to prepare for, in which case it's simply too tedious/not fun.

The Council of Travincal? Difficult. Fun.
Magic Resistant Stone Skin Spectral Hit with two immunities and 250K hp? Tedious. Difficult, but wrong kind of difficult.
WSK? Difficult. Sometimes tedious, but only at random.
Nihlathak? May as well be playing roulette for many builds.

[Quark]

Too easy was absolutely true, though. And even here, from what I'm reading, it's still too easy until Inferno, where Blizzard pulled their patented "overfix" and now it's (slightly, even post-nerf) a bit too hard.

Inferno hasn't been nerfed yet.

[Elric of Grans]

I would prefer they dropped Normal. Way too easy, to the point of being boring. Inferno just needs tweaking.

[Mavfin]

I would prefer they dropped Normal. Way too easy, to the point of being boring. Inferno just needs tweaking.

Normal's for complete newbies to the series. My 15 year old, who is a pretty decent raider (normal mode, at least) in WoW, knows how to stay out of fire and do decent DPS, etc, took some time to adjust to the camera/movement, as she hadn't played D2 or D1. The 18 year old jumped right in and blew through Normal, though, as did I. There are people out there who Normal is perfect to start with, and Nightmare would simply be too hard to jump straight into.

[FireIceTalon]

I dont mind that Inferno difficulty exists, what I take issue with is the cheesy mechanics in it. Most of the elite traits are cheap as hell (regardless of difficulty), but things such as enrage timers only exasperate it even more.

I think, that with some slight modifications, 1-60, Normal-Hell, would work just fine. I think the biggest problem that people have, outside of the arse-kicking that is Inferno, is the loot system is just weird. ( I'll expound on this in a different thread, because I don't want to hijack yours )

On my first character, I hit 60 about midway through A3/Hell. So that left another Act and a half where I wasn't really progressing, and that was frustrating. Also, there seems to be that random XP wall around lvl 55ish that just feels super out of place. If the leveling was changed so it took maybe an extra clear of A4 to hit 60, but the progression felt more linear, then I think you could easily say Inferno isn't necessary.

60 midway through Act 3? Wow, that's pretty early. My Barb hit 60 last night, during the middle of Act 4.

One thing I noticed is that the difficulty increase from Act 4 Hell to Inferno Act 1 is insane. My Barb is pretty over geared for Hell, even at Act 4, but he almost feels under geared for Inferno Act 1. My defense numbers I think are pretty decent for that area, I'm working with about 44k hp, 150 ish resists, and dmg reduction is around 66%. DPS is about 8-9K, armor just under 6K. But the elites are MUCH harder than in Act 4 Hell. I realize it's Inferno, but the scaling is pretty huge. Like in D1 for example, Hell was substantially harder than Nightmare for each given area, but Nightmare Hell was probably still a little tougher than Hell Caves for example. The difficulty spike here just increases at a ridiculous rate.

But as someone else before said, you have to be careful for what you wish for. You had years of idiots complaining that D2 was too easy - and maybe it was, but nevertheless many people still had alot of fun with it. Now, they got what they wanted, and they are kicking themselves. I didnt play much D2, but I liked the difficulty aspect of D1 - it was challenging, but not cheezy. Of course, once you got the best gear in the game, even Hell/Hell kind of became a joke, though you still had to be careful even with a fully geared level 50 char (especially with Lava Maws and Storms).

If they took out the cheesy monster affixes, which would be most of them, cut back some of the dmg monsters deal out, I think this would make the game on Inferno much more fun. A lot of people would be mad I suppose, because overall, I would say opinion on the current state of Inferno is pretty equally divided - you either like it the way it is for the most part, or you really do not and it seems to be divided 50/50 among those who have played it. So who do you cater to in such an issue? You cannot please everyone, someone is bound to be disappointed by any changes. I really think Blizz can take out the cheesiness while still keeping those who like the game insanely difficulty happy, though. But if you eliminate Inferno altogether, you would probably have to make the 3 main difficulties a bit tougher than they are, cause my Barb ABSOLUTELY DEMOLISHED hell difficulty, and my Wiz, while not quite as dominant, isn't doing too bad either, and she is currently in Act 3 of Hell clvl 57.

I really liked the mechanics of D1's combat. Armor, to hit, and resists were so important in that game, yet in D3, while they certainly play a role, they work very differently. In D1, if you had a very high armor class, you didn't get hit nearly as often. In D3, no matter how high your armor rating is, it seems like monsters always have auto hit on you. A higher armor rating reduces incoming damage, yes, but this is very different thing from being hit period. Chance To hit is not an issue at all, be it for the monsters or us. Resists are about the only thing that works the same, although the numbers are just far larger in D3. Also, blocking itself seems pretty useless or even non-existent in D3, whereas in D1 is was very key for melee chars to have a good block rate by means of having enough Dexterity at your particular clvl. And of course, you could dodge melee in D1 which was a really nice combat dynamic IMO. In D3, all melee monsters have auto-hit on you even if they are 10 yards away, which is just stupid.

I had huge fun with my Barb in hell mode. It was a tad easy, as I pretty much obliterated almost everything in my path (even the packs that killed me, I came back with a Vengeance, literally ). Sometimes being dominant and just watching demon guts and body parts flying all over the screen is just as fun as being challenged, though I don't want the game to be too easy either. There has to be some sort of happy medium.

[MMAgCh]

I would prefer they dropped Normal. Way too easy, to the point of being boring. Inferno just needs tweaking.

I like Normal (and Nightmare to a lesser extent) because it actually allows you to feel powerful, carving through pretty much everything in your path with hardly a care in the world. Hell and especially Inferno, on the other hand, is where the "whimpering weenie" playstyle necessarily takes over because the odds are persistently stacked against you to such a degree that anything but the utmost prudence will lead to a swift death at the hand of the nearest elite pack at best (unless, I suppose, you've spent lots and lots of either time or gold on acquiring high-end gear).

But then, I'm most avowedly not one of those who felt that D2 was "too easy"; the kind of difficulty (whether genuine or of the brick wall variety) that D3 seems to be aiming for would actually have diminished my enjoyment of it, in fact.

[Kurosu]

If they took out the cheesy monster affixes, which would be most of them, cut back some of the dmg monsters deal out, I think this would make the game on Inferno much more fun. A lot of people would be mad I suppose, because overall, I would say opinion on the current state of Inferno is pretty equally divided - you either like it the way it is for the most part, or you really do not and it seems to be divided 50/50 among those who have played it. So who do you cater to in such an issue? You cannot please everyone, someone is bound to be disappointed by any changes. I really think Blizz can take out the cheesiness while still keeping those who like the game insanely difficulty happy, though. But if you eliminate Inferno altogether, you would probably have to make the 3 main difficulties a bit tougher than they are, cause my Barb ABSOLUTELY DEMOLISHED hell difficulty, and my Wiz, while not quite as dominant, isn't doing too bad either, and she is currently in Act 3 of Hell clvl 57.

They don't have to take the modifiers out completely, but they do need to give the player a way to counter them.
It doesn't even have to be something very complex or fancy to implement. For example; they could add item affixes that prevent certain effects such as Frozen (Raven Frost ), Vortex, or add affixes to reduce the damage of effects such as Fire Chains or Arcane Sentry.
The first two would mostly be sought after by ranged, kiting type characters, while characters that fight up close would value the latter.

This would add another layer of complexity to the game, and it gives people an incentive to farm for, while reducing the "cheesiness" factor of elites somewhat, as there now is a way to prevent getting killed by a Vortex.
If you didn't opt to farm for these items, then it is the player's fault, but not something completely out of his control.
But of course, such mods cannot be extremely rare, they must be fairly reasonably obtainable pre-inferno, to beat the trend of "you must have items from act 4 to be able to be viable in act 2".

You could allow 2 or 3 of these kind of mods to spawn as fixed properties on some Legendary tier items while magic/rare items cannot spawn with more than 1, then people would have a reason to get excited when a gold-lettered item drops, as such mods would be highly desirable.
It could give some items a popular status such as Harlequin's Crest, Buriza, etc had in D2, or in other words, a reason to keep playing, rather than farming so you can upgrade your nameless +150 Int gloves for a +175 int version.

I feel that this sticks with the focus on "having the right items to proceed" which seems to be the main trend behind the design in D3.

Blizzard could also take another way, which is by making the skills avoidable by movement or reflexes.
For example, Vortex could have some sort of visual effect underneath your character indicating it is being cast, and if you don't move away from it within say, 1.5 seconds, you will get pulled towards the caster.
This will keep the player on his toes as you will have to pay attention, but it does not make the modifier completely non-threatening.

To me, either of them seem like a good solution, which I've thought about and discussed in my own circles for some time when I saw the state of the elite packs in Inferno.
And I feel the game would improve on it if such measures or similar were implemented, as it addresses both the issues with unfairly hard elite packs and lackluster loot system.


I'm aware the "reduced x % of control-impairing effects" exists, but I feel it's rather lackluster.

[FireIceTalon]

I would prefer they dropped Normal. Way too easy, to the point of being boring. Inferno just needs tweaking.

I like Normal (and Nightmare to a lesser extent) because it actually allows you to feel powerful, carving through pretty much everything in your path with hardly a care in the world. Hell and especially Inferno, on the other hand, is where the "whimpering weenie" playstyle necessarily takes over because the odds are persistently stacked against you to such a degree that anything but the utmost prudence will lead to a swift death at the hand of the nearest elite pack at best (unless, I suppose, you've spent lots and lots of either time or gold on acquiring high-end gear).

But then, I'm most avowedly not one of those who felt that D2 was "too easy"; the kind of difficulty (whether genuine or of the brick wall variety) that D3 seems to be aiming for would actually have diminished my enjoyment of it, in fact.

Yea, but you don't want the game to be too easy either, or you will get bored just curb stomping things all the time. It's fun to dominate sometimes, but even with the most high end gear, there should still be a degree of caution and risk involved. This is what made hell/hell on D1 a really good system - it was pretty hard unless you had decent gear and really knew what you were doing, but once u got the best items, you could play it pretty comfortably, even dominate it, yet if you got too care free you could still die. In D3 Inferno, I suppose this element is possible, but certainly not probable. In D1, it was both possible, and with enough dedication within reason, probable. I don't see that on D3 though.

I think the earlier difficulties, normal through hell, sort of come down to what class you play. I haven't tried Monk or WD yet. My Barb absolutely destroyed hell mode with little effort, my Wiz is doing pretty good but struggles with certain types of elites (usually fast mobs that have extra health or have vortex attached - but almost any elite Soul Lasher pack will destroy her regardless of mods), and my DH struggled through hell mode and I don't even play her anymore even though she has completed Act1 of Inferno - just simply not a fun class to play because of the flawed dynamics of their skill system.

Over at Diablo Inc someone made a post saying how DH is so easy to play and Wiz is so hard, and I could only laugh, since it is completely the opposite. Wizard is intrinsically a better designed class in almost every way.

[Elric of Grans]

Normal's for complete newbies to the series. My 15 year old, who is a pretty decent raider (normal mode, at least) in WoW, knows how to stay out of fire and do decent DPS, etc, took some time to adjust to the camera/movement, as she hadn't played D2 or D1. The 18 year old jumped right in and blew through Normal, though, as did I. There are people out there who Normal is perfect to start with, and Nightmare would simply be too hard to jump straight into.

An interesting perspective. Thank you!

In D3, no matter how high your armor rating is, it seems like monsters always have auto hit on you. A higher armor rating reduces incoming damage, yes, but this is very different thing from being hit period.

There is no to-hit mechanic in Diablo III. Players and enemies all auto-hit. That is why armour is now damage reduction while dodge is damage avoidance. This seems to be a pretty standard move in Action RPGs over the past decade or so, increasing the pace of combat.

They don't have to take the modifiers out completely, but they do need to give the player a way to counter them.

I do not think that is the issue either. In isolation, I cannot think of any attributes that absolutely have no counter (yes, even Invulnerable Minions). The issue occurs when you get certain combinations (eg Jailer/Waller/Arcane; I bet Barbarians hate Plague/Vampiric/Electric) and is further compounded when certain enemy classes have them (eg my Wizard died three times last night to a pack of Jailer/Vortex Phase Beasts). Think about it like this. A pack of Fallen Champions with Fire Chains (and nothing else) is not too scary. A group of Wraiths (who teleport on top of you naturally) with the same Affix are painful. Molten/Fast Zombies are nasty; Molten/Fast Scavengers are just not fun. In isolation, there is always a way for every class to counter every class of enemy and every Elite attribute, but their randomness has a high probability of creating awful combinations. Think about it: has anyone ever complained about a Unique enemy being too hard? I have never once heard it. Champions and Rares, all the time, but not Uniques because they have static attributes that were balanced in their combination and to the base enemy class (ie the way it was done in the original Diablo).

[Tuftears]

There's already 'Reduce Crowd Control Abilities' Duration On You' as an item affix. They're just horribly parsimonious so you see like 5-7% CC duration reduction instead of more interesting 20-30% amounts.