What are your impressions?
#21
I would suggest the Hatred Regen Rune on Smoke Screen is likely doing very little for you. With the Bat, you already regenerate seven hatred per second, and Smoke Screen only gives you a one-off (per use) extra six. The first two Runes are more useful on Smoke Screen. Personally, I like the speed boost; Elites in Hell are faster than you, and still see/target you even when invisible (since 1.0.2), so I find making some distance better; most prefer the extra 0.5 seconds of protection from the second Rune.
May the wind pick up your heels and your sword strike true.
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#22
(06-02-2012, 01:52 AM)Elric of Grans Wrote: I would suggest the Hatred Regen Rune on Smoke Screen is likely doing very little for you. With the Bat, you already regenerate seven hatred per second, and Smoke Screen only gives you a one-off (per use) extra six. The first two Runes are more useful on Smoke Screen. Personally, I like the speed boost; Elites in Hell are faster than you, and still see/target you even when invisible (since 1.0.2), so I find making some distance better; most prefer the extra 0.5 seconds of protection from the second Rune.

I actually changed my rune on SS the other night. I can't remember what to though (the highest available for me at the moment). It doesn't really matter though because the only times I've died recently is when I grew bored clearing act 3 and stopped paying attention and when I pulled a very nasty fast boss pack in a tight dungeon. 99% of fights are just a matter of holding down the right mouse button behind the door (and my merc). I'm often getting 20+ mobs killed with one shot (the scorpions in act 3 loved to die in huge numbers to ball lightning). Ball lightning is awesome because a) it's aoe and b) it passes through all mobs and can hit them more than once. Its slowness is its only weakness and I felt some danger against the port-a-whack mobs late in act 3. I get the feeling that in hell I might switch my lmb to shackles instead of hungering arrow. Ball lightning is just as good as hungering against single targets anyway.
Disarm you with a smile Smile
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#23
I switched from Entangling Arrow to Hungering Arrow in Hell Tongue The snare effect was so heavily resisted that it was nigh useless, and I really, really needed the DPS of Hungering Arrow.
May the wind pick up your heels and your sword strike true.
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#24
I will update my thoughts of the skills. Essentially, I am even more pessimistic and disappointed in the design of the class than I was at low levels Tongue

Primary
Hungering Arrow. Big, single-target damage, at absurdly long range, but nothing else. The Runes just add more DPS, which means (a) it is always dull, and (b) everyone will just pick the highest DPS option (Hungering Arrow). Probably a little too powerful for a Hatred-generator, but so incredibly dull to use.
Entangling Shot. Low damage, but can potentially hit two (or more) targets if they are close enough. The range on that is a little too low in most situations. Snares, but by Hell difficulty the Snare effect is a little too heavily scaled reducing its usefulness. Again, all the Runes are utter garbage.
Bola Shot. High damage, with a small AoE, but only after a delay. This one actually has an interesting selection of Runes that allow it to be customised, though most of them are a little weak, even for a Hatred generator. The delay before it explodes means it forces a significant shift in play-style.
Grenades. Solid damage with a good AoE, but there is a delay between firing and the explosion, and the grenades can bounce around off terrain. Also has some interesting Runes, but the unusual style makes it a little awkward to use as a Hatred Generator.

Secondary
Impale. A really solid, powerful option, but definitely too Hatred-expensive. Has some interesting Rune options, but all of them are over-shadowed by Impact, the only Rune that almost justifies the absurd cost. Would require support from an AoE option (ie Multishot) to deal with regular trash mobs, but is utterly devastating against brutes and Elites.
Rapid Fire. Pretty bad in Normal; only gets worse as the difficulties progress. Obliterates your hatred in seconds for average damage, and at the added cost of almost certainly screwing yourself over. Only the Withering Fire Rune, for its reduced cost, makes this even conceivably useful, but even that does not justify a skill that is fundamentally flawed.
Chakram. Only useful with Twin Chakrams, and only until you unlock something better. The odd aiming combined with Diablo III's fast and highly mobile mobs makes this far too unreliable to justify. Most of the Rune options actually make it less reliable, making this an awfully designed skill.
Elemental Arrow. While lacking the heavy-hitting of Impale, this skill provides a solid AoE, making it perfect for dealing with Trash Mobs at minimal Hatred cost. Honestly, most of the Runes have their purpose. Electricity for larger AoE, Ice for damage and Snare, Fire with a (perhaps too small) chance for a Fear effect, and Shadow for (again, too small) life leech. Not as good against Bosses or Elites as Impale, but a great option for trash mobs and brutes.

Defensive
Caltrops. I loved this in Normal, but I struggle to make use of it later. Borderline-useless for people using Entangling Arrow, as they both do much the same thing, but more appealing with other options (perhaps especially Bolas and Grenades, making up for their delay). Most of the Rune options are quite interesting, but the hard thing with this skill is its tactical application. Combined with the faster mobs of Hell and Inferno, as well as their natural resistance to Snares, this would be a difficult skill to take advantage of.
Smoke Screen. Despite being nerfed twice, this is still the de facto choice for most Demon Hunters. Immunity to damage and control effects, along with Root-Break, this is the all round defence for all situations. Combined with the Tactical Advantage passive, it is also a fantastic tool for positioning. Basically all the Runes are useless, however, making Lingering Fog's minimal boost the only one really worth considering (unless you have a bit of +discipline gear, where Special Recipe may be worth considering).
Shadow Power. Despite sounding so very high, the life leech on this is actually provides minimal advantage. The extreme fragility of the class in Inferno especially makes it quite pointless. The only Rune that makes this borderline useful is Gloom, which still provides minimal benefit. Compared to the advantages of Smoke Screen, it is hard to justify using Shadow Power: longer effect, but a dramatically weaker one.

Hunting
Vault. Sadly, not as good as it looked. The delay at the start of the animation makes it a poor panic button, the delay at the end of the animation makes it highly risky to use, and the fact you take damage while moving makes it pretty well useless --- especially against Molten or Poison Elites.
Preparation. A perfect example of terrible design. Tactical Skills were considered too powerful, so they created Discipline to prevent them being spammed. Discipline becomes a terrible handicap for the class, so they add a skill to allow Tactical Skills to be spammed. WTF? Sure enough, the only purpose behind this skill is to exploit how powerful the tactical options are (namely, Smoke Screen through an entire encounter). On basic design, this was a terrible, terrible idea; in practice, it is likely critical for any exploitative build the class may have.
Companion. A pretty poor option, all in all. The AI is awful and the damage is weak. Most of the Runes add nothing useful. Except the Bat. Suddenly, an awful Active Skill becomes our only decent Passive Skill. Almost doubling the Hatred Regeneration means a lot of our over-priced skills become highly viable options. You can guarantee Blizzard will nerf this to oblivion in 1.1, but until then there is no reason to not use this.
Marked for Death. An interesting option, but one I have not really used much. Most of the Runes have interesting applications, and the basic effect of the skill is nice. Sadly, I think that is also its problem: it is `nice', but not `OMG look at how sweet this is!'. It is just not exciting for an active skill. Probably should have just been left in D&D.

Devices
Evasive Fire. Oddly, a Hatred generator that is not classified as Primary. In general, an odd skill. The attack is dull and does not offer anything that cannot be done better by other skills; the evasive aspect of it is quite weak, often entirely ineffectual at higher difficulties, and does not work as described. The Runes are quite dull, providing nice options to an already niche option. No matter how much I try, I just cannot justify the existence of this one.
Fan of Knives. An interesting skill, with some interesting Rune options, but it is never very good. I tried using it for Vortex, Teleporting or Fast Elites, to tag some damage before I used Smoke Screen to run off. It was `free' damage while I focused on movement, but not overly good damage. The short range made it often miss too, making Hail of Knives essentially necessary, but at the loss of any interesting effects.
Spike Trap. Another one I tried considerably to use, but just could not justify. Essentially, the damage was just not very good for a skill that takes so long to set up, costs so much Hatred to use, and requires tactical application to make enemies even walk over to be effected. None of the runes really solved the issues I had with it, making it something that sounds nice, but I never really found added value.
Sentry. A fantastic-sounding option, but very disappointing. The base damage is pitiful, making it almost useless by itself. The Runes add interesting tactical options, but suffer horridly for range. Probably much better in co-op situations, but in solo it leaves me wanting.

Archery
Strafe. ``What is this? I don't even know.'' That is the only way I can describe this. It costs hatred, does poor damage, has so-so targeting and slows your movement. Does it actually serve a practical application? Without dramatic changes, I very much doubt it does.
Multishot. The primary AoE option for Demon Hunters. Decent damage, but more importantly it hits a very large area very quickly. A little too expensive, but Fire at Will completely solves this issue making it spammable, allowing you to obliterate trash mobs and Minions with ease, allowing you to focus on brutes and Elites with harder-hitting and/or cheaper skills. Sadly, the high cost makes other Runes hard to justify, though they certainly can be built around.
Cluster Arrow. Powerful, but absurdly expensive, and the grenades with it are so random as to be useless more often than not. The AoE of the initial hit seems very small, making the grenades a critical part of its function, but their unreliability makes this a poor choice. Many of the Runes replace the grenade effects, but the skill is still to expensive to justify them
Rain of Vengeance. An interesting skill that takes the approach of making each Rune truly unique. I have mostly used Dark Cloud, which allows you to put some decent damage on enemies you are kiting. This seems largely useless in co-op, however, and can also sometimes attack terrain instead of enemies, again reducing its usefulness. The other Runes seem tailored for co-op, but none of them seem very useful in my experience. The design of them just does not seem to correlate with the design of the rest of the game, leading to much of the damage being wasted.

Passive
Tactical Advantage. A nice enhancement to Smoke Screen and Vault; well worth considering if you use either. As mobs get faster over the difficulties, this becomes increasingly useful.
Thrill of the Hunt. An interesting option, but not especially useful. Once in a while, one enemy will not chase you; sadly, his 20 friends still will. Highly situational and entirely uncontrollable.
Vengeance. Extra Hatred is nice. Hatred and Discipline from Health Globes is OK, but pretty situational. Sometimes it will save you; others it will do nothing to help.

Steady Aim. Extra damage. It does not work if there is an enemy in melee range of you, but you are probably already dead by that point anyway. May as well just be a flat `bonus damage'.
Cull the Weak. A nice little bit of extra damage if you use lots of Snares (eg Entangling Arrow), but the boost is pretty small for such a situational skill.
Night Stalker. Perhaps could serve a meaningful purpose in certain niche builds, but the effect is pretty weak and too situational.

Brooding. Essentially, heal a little faster after combat; sometimes helps while kiting too. The effect is pretty minimal and there are too many enemies that invalidate it, making it too situational.
Hot Pursuit. Pretty useless. An extremely minor boost to speed that only works in situations where you do not need a boost to speed. Perhaps there could be a niche build for it, but largely useless.
Archery. An absolute must-pick for bows and a nice option for hand crossbows, but pretty awful for crossbows. It adds DPS, but your weapon of choice heavily effects how useful it is.

Numbing Traps. Probably most useful if you are making heavy use of Fan of Knives, as you are likely to be hit afterwards anyway. Has some benefits to Caltrops and Spike Trap, but is probably of more benefit in co-op than solo, as your allies can likely take a hit already, so 25% off will mean something.
Perfectionist. Pretty useless. Essentially, -1 Discipline on your tactical options. Woohoo? Even combined with the -2 Discipline Runes on those skills, the benefit is so small as to be pointless.
Custom Engineering. I have not used this one at all, as I cannot find any reason to justify its existence. It just does not add anything I think would be moderately useful.

Grenadier. I have heard of people using this to fuel suicide build throughout Inferno; I cannot say I would recommend it. Provides a nice bonus to Grenades and Cluster Arrow, which could be useful for a variant.
Sharpshooter. Stronger than it sounds, especially with slower weapons. Crossbow users should pick this over Archery; Hand Crossbow users will find it adds little. Still, extra DPS and can fuel `on critical hit' effects.
Ballistics. If Runes that added Rockets were more useful, this may be an interesting passive; as it is, it adds very little to some very niche options. Could be built around for an interesting variant, however.
May the wind pick up your heels and your sword strike true.
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#25
My opinion regarding your impressions and some of my own impressions.
I agree with most of your impressions, except in some points.

Grenades: not very useful as a damage dealer as the way it hits is literally somewhat of a hit & miss, but I found it useful as a Hatred generator coupled with the double Hatred rune and the passive that further boosts it.
With a high attack speed you can generate Hatred very quickly for some resource-intensive skills such as Impale or Cluster Arrow (which I've found largely useless).


Elemental Arrow:
with Nether Tentacles, this is currently probably the best damage skill in the game for the Demon Hunter, as the missile can hit the same target multiple times for 155% weapon damage.
Another factor is the Sharpshooter passive, which lingers on for a period after a hit. Because of the nature of the slow moving projectiles, you can create a whole string of projectiles which all hit for critical damage, which makes mince-meat out of almost anything (as long as it doesn't have Reflect Damage!).

Considering this skill and rune combination is leaps ahead of anything else currently available, I foresee a nerf where it will only be able to hit once per shot per target, so better use it while the using is good.

I've also gotten a lot of use out of the Frozen Arrow rune, which hits hard (but not as hard as NT) and slows.


Caltrops:
still a very useful skill even in Inferno, where some fights are very hard to solo without the slow this skill provides.
I used to utilize the 80% slow and 2 second stun runes, but lately I've changed it in favour of the 45% damage one, which provides significant supplemental damage.
Sometimes you are running more than you can shoot, where this rune really comes in handy as there is no delay when dropping a trap.


Smoke Screen: I started out using Vault and regular movement as my only method of avoidance at first, as the snob in me did not want to join the masses who spammed the hell out of it before the nerf.
But once I got to the latter parts of Hell and beyond, I realized that it's simply impossible to stay alive without this skill.
Not that you won't be dying, since you'll still suffer countless deaths, but this skill allows you to avoid a few of them.

For this, I really hate the character design, as I recall Blizzard mentioning they wish to advocate diversity of builds and the viability of all skills (hah!), but then they indirectly force you to use a skill.


Vault: I'm still using this all the way up to A3/4 Inferno, I find it very useful in avoiding damage, dodging Arcane Sentries, and the like.
It was invaluable to me in certain boss fights such as The Butcher and Belial.
I started out using Tactical Advantage with this rune, the extra speed was also very nice for general travel and corpse-running. Smile
But later in Inferno I swapped that out in favour of a damage passive, as it proved to be more efficient to kill things as fast as possible rather than trying to run away in futility and dying anyway.

I still really like this skill and it's one of the skills I never remove, I just wish they would add some invincibility frames during the jump, or remove the slight delay during the start-up and end of the skill.
I've also noticed a bug with this skill, sometimes when you use it just as you get hit, you are dropped to 0 HP but are still alive anyway.
You can still attack and everything, but the screen continually flashes with the red HP warning, and you cannot drink potions or use any other way to heal back to positive HP.


Evasive Fire: I used to think that this skill was completely worthless as well, until I got the Covering Fire rune. The benefits of this skill over the other generators is that it generates slightly more, and hits 3 targets instantly in your screen range and slightly beyond.
This means it could possibly save you from death from a charging monster where a projectile-based skill might be slightly too slow.
And perhaps a design flaw or bug, there are some occasions where you can shoot through obstacles or above/below you where other skills cannot reach.

In Inferno I just constantly spam this skill while moving, as it also functions as a detector of enemies, as you can see the damage numbers pop up, which gives you time to prepare. This is also very useful, as everything kills you in 1 hit you need to be aware of where your enemies are, some of which can be very hard to see (the insect swarm type for example), and this skill does not really need to be aimed.

Also, I just like how it goes 'boom boom boom' all the time when you spam it. Smile


Strafe: Indeed, this is a contender for the worst skill in the entire game. I really wanted to make this work as I liked it a lot in D2, but no matter what rune I used, it simply eats up a disproportionate amount of Hatred while doing insignificant damage *and* slowing you down to boot.
It is somewhat amusing that Blizzard is prideful about their skill diversity and viability, but this skill does not seem to have been play-tested at all, as I reckon anyone who has tried it would have noticed it is nigh useless.
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#26
What I like about strafe is that you move, albeit slower, while you're pressing down the attack button. It's like auto-kiting, except you're slow, and you run out of hatred.

It's a bad skill that I want to be good.

One thing about Marked For Death:
I use Marked (Mortal Enemy ) on Boss Fights. Between it / Bat / and my 2.1 Hatred Regen from gear, It takes a long time to run out of hatred from using NT.

After playing a few more classes, It feels like the DH is the only one that doesn't have any +Armor or +Resist anything. It's actually pretty frustrating. Can someone explain to me why everyone thinks DH are OP?
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#27
Smoke Screen with Preparation. That is why the class is considered over-powered by those who have never played it. In theory, it sounds like permanent invulnerability.

From my experience, the Demon Hunter feels nowhere near as well designed as the Wizard. The Monk feels fun, but I suspect would have considerable difficulties in Inferno, so is probably less balanced than the Demon Hunter. Even with my extremely limited Witch Doctor experience, it is obvious the class would have considerable difficulties from a very early stage.
May the wind pick up your heels and your sword strike true.
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#28
Being the ultimate glass cannon with ranged options, Demon Hunter is the both best farming class and the worst progression class (post-nerfs). Depending on a player's goals, and what they've seen in action, that's why you'll see OP calls or not.
Trade yourself in for the perfect one. No one needs to know that you feel you've been ruined!
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#29
Elric / Quark both of your replies make sense, and it makes sense that it's mostly people who haven't played a DH that call them OP.

Wizard and Barb, from what I've played (45 Wiz, 30 Barb, 60 DH) both seem more well-rounded then the DH ever will be. Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but I can't keep my DH alive in A2/Inferno for anything. I know I need better gear in specific areas (need more HP, Armor) but some days it's just like bashing my head into the wall. It's time for me to cast my vote for Hard does not always equal fun.
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#30
There are different kinds of hard. Organically hard (eg Elites) adds a new dimension to play, which is a lot of fun. Artificially hard (eg one-hit-kills, enrage timer) is never fun.
May the wind pick up your heels and your sword strike true.
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#31
I'm at the Heart of Sin quest in act 3 Inferno, and I found it impossible to solo.
I got to the second level of the first tower, but I could find no way to make it to the next floor.
The main problem are elite packs of either the Phasebeasts or Soul Rippers. Once in a blue moon I manage to kill a pack if they happen to spawn with mostly harmless mods, but if they spawn with Fast, Reflect Damage or Invulnerable Minions, a remake is practically needed.

Because the path is so confined, there is hardly any space to kite, it feels like you're being caged with a wild beast.
I tried parking some boss packs and then skipping them, but this often doesn't work either, as there are some stragglers who won't stay away, or there is no room to park them anywhere.

So distracting them doesn't work, what about fighting them head-on?
This is no-go either, as I can't deal enough damage to kill them before I run out of Discipline to use Vault, Caltrops or SS.
Inevitably I get cornered all the way back to the entrance and die, or I run around and kite until I have no more Discipline and die.
After a few attempts, the respawn timer goes up to 10, 15 seconds and they will fully heal, so "Death Zerging" as Blizzard names it is not an option either.

And then there is just running.
I tried a build with Tactical Advantage, Hot Pursuit and Perfectionist passives to run past monsters to get to the next floor, but with the anti-dodging mechanics in place, there is no real way to reliably run past large packs in this confined area.


I suppose that if I kept trying for 10's if not 100's of times, I would eventually run into a map with no elite packs on the way or only Succubi packs that are manageable, but that just seems like an effort in futility as the game won't get any easier moving forward.
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