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Diablo 3 is fundamentally broken
06-12-2012, 11:13 AM
Post: #41
RE: Diablo 3 is fundamentally broken
(06-12-2012 08:01 AM)Archon_Wing Wrote:  Only salvage level 60s for exquisites, sell everything else. Then sell your exquisite essence for good money too and go buy yourself a better item. Rinse, repeat, and die 50 more times. Sad

Some 59s will grant you Inferno level crafting materials, as well. 58 and below are usually vendor trash, but at least it significantly ups your gold per hour. Tongue

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06-12-2012, 02:15 PM
Post: #42
RE: Diablo 3 is fundamentally broken
(06-12-2012 11:13 AM)Roland Wrote:  Some 59s will grant you Inferno level crafting materials, as well. 58 and below are usually vendor trash, but at least it significantly ups your gold per hour. Tongue

The hell crafting mats are truly worthless though. I'd be interested to find out how the likelihood of an inferno salvage compares with the gold from vendoring.
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06-12-2012, 02:22 PM (This post was last modified: 06-12-2012 02:24 PM by Lissa.)
Post: #43
RE: Diablo 3 is fundamentally broken
(06-12-2012 11:13 AM)Roland Wrote:  
(06-12-2012 08:01 AM)Archon_Wing Wrote:  Only salvage level 60s for exquisites, sell everything else. Then sell your exquisite essence for good money too and go buy yourself a better item. Rinse, repeat, and die 50 more times. Sad

Some 59s will grant you Inferno level crafting materials, as well. 58 and below are usually vendor trash, but at least it significantly ups your gold per hour. Tongue

Only some 59s will give Inferno level mats, most do not. Typically it's not worth tearing down level 59s as most of the time you'll get Hell mats and not Inferno mats (60 is guarenteed to get you Inferno mats).

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06-12-2012, 03:33 PM (This post was last modified: 06-12-2012 03:34 PM by RiotInferno.)
Post: #44
RE: Diablo 3 is fundamentally broken
(06-12-2012 02:22 PM)Lissa Wrote:  
(06-12-2012 11:13 AM)Roland Wrote:  
(06-12-2012 08:01 AM)Archon_Wing Wrote:  Only salvage level 60s for exquisites, sell everything else. Then sell your exquisite essence for good money too and go buy yourself a better item. Rinse, repeat, and die 50 more times. Sad

Some 59s will grant you Inferno level crafting materials, as well. 58 and below are usually vendor trash, but at least it significantly ups your gold per hour. Tongue

Only some 59s will give Inferno level mats, most do not. Typically it's not worth tearing down level 59s as most of the time you'll get Hell mats and not Inferno mats (60 is guarenteed to get you Inferno mats).

FWIW, if you can find lvl 60 junk-rares on the AH for 2k Gold, you can get a return of ~800 gold per item by selling the mats on the AH. ( the ~800 is based on prices from the weekend )

Of course, if you get a super-lucky salvage and get Fiery Brimstone, then your profits just skyrocketed.

OTOH, if you need mats, and can buy junk-rares for 3k, then you're saving ~200 gold per essence/tear combo.
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06-15-2012, 12:30 AM (This post was last modified: 06-15-2012 01:01 AM by Archon_Wing.)
Post: #45
RE: Diablo 3 is fundamentally broken
Finally made some headway in Act 2 with my enchantress coming out. I've already spent a few million on the auction house. Sadly, halfway through I have to blow through every cooldown to survive regular mobs, and while some elites are easy enough, shielding and vortex pretty much means I can't beat it. Interestingly, I'm still using the same 90k gold weapon I bought a while back, because the more expensive ones are such a ripoff.

I also tried joining an act 3 game with my friend... died to the god damned furnace fire practically instantly. Wtf?

I like how many attacks that you're supposed to dodge since they do insane damage, "but dude just dodge it, it's so telegraphed" except the hitboxes are incredibly bad and more suited to an 80s game on the NES. What's worse? They tried to justify such shoddy design in this insulting manner.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/4427663050#15
Quote:It's intentional. We don't want a game where the most effective way to play is to dodge in and out of enemy attacks. It's not that difficult to do, and it's just not a very fun way to play. "Most effective" and "not fun" just can't be in the same sentence when describing part of the game. We want combat to be based on use of abilities, putting thought into builds, building up offensive and defensive stats, etc. Skill is absolutely a part of all of the systems you'll use, and kiting can be too, but it'd be ridiculous if you could avoid all of the systems that make the game the game because you can time dodges of enemy attacks and negate every other factor.

Also think about just running past enemies to rush through an area and never being hit. Anyone looking to rush would love it! Which is why it's not a good idea from a design perspective. Smile It's not something we'll be changing.

Soo, the attacks kill you so fast, and they decided dodging them was too cheap.

To me it read as "Get better gear, stop cheating with skill. You're supposed to get hit. Thus take out your credit card and buy the items, so you can play the game as intended."

I think that is far worse than Inferno's stats being out of whack. This is Fake Difficulty in its purest form. And of course, remember, Blizzard doesn't know how to play its own game. They didn't test inferno, remember?

"So Archon, why are you still playing this game?", one may ask.

I never bought the game expecting something balanced. That is secondary to server stability/security. I'm mostly doing it because it's a way to play a new game with many acquaintances and friends, not because Diablo III is a great game. It's a pretty good game, if we just look at normal and nightmare. What I cannot stand though, is the inanely condescending attitude Blizzard has had (like the infamous "Do you really want chat rooms" for Starcraft 2), nor can I stand the not really well thought out things they've done lately. I know the launch was gonna be a disaster. That's fine. I just played a little later. However, at this point, I'm not really sure they know what they're doing. What I'm getting is a concerted effort to pigeonhole players into a narrowly defined style-- if you think about it if all characters of one class remove all their gear, they're all the same. It limits options and makes gameplay less interesting.

The final thing that gets to me is not design flaws. If it were just an error or bug, it can be fixed in time. The problem is some gameplay concepts are inherently flawed.

I also play the game for the Auction House. It's become more fun than the actual game. But isn't this a problem?

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06-15-2012, 12:44 AM
Post: #46
RE: Diablo 3 is fundamentally broken
Some attacks can still be dodged, usually those that are heavily telegraphed (eg Berserkers using their downward slam). Anything else auto-hits. Personally, something I consider an atrocious decision as dodging was fun.

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06-15-2012, 01:19 AM
Post: #47
RE: Diablo 3 is fundamentally broken
Yeah, but dodging involves skill. If skill is allowed to be a factor, then you aren't forced to whore yourself out in the AH like everyone else. :op
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06-15-2012, 02:53 AM (This post was last modified: 06-15-2012 02:55 AM by kandrathe.)
Post: #48
RE: Diablo 3 is fundamentally broken
If I find a good rare shield and sell it on the AH because the one I have is better that wouldn't make me feel like a whore. If I augment my gear because I find I'm dying because I didn't find enough good gear of the right types for my level, I also don't really feel like a whore.

I view the AH as a solution to the whimsy of the RNG.

I guess we could extend it to real life too. Just because I sell my tractor on Craig's list wouldn't equivocate me to purveying my sexual skills for money.

If you can call it whoring, which I think is a bit melodramatic, they would probably be the ones who farm and spam the channels.

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06-15-2012, 10:58 AM (This post was last modified: 06-15-2012 10:58 AM by Archon_Wing.)
Post: #49
RE: Diablo 3 is fundamentally broken
I think there's another flaw in the game that causes people to adopt glass cannon builds in inferno...

The monsters themselves are glass cannons-- dealing damage disproportional to their own health! The result is that either they die in a few hits or you do the same.

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06-15-2012, 01:26 PM
Post: #50
RE: Diablo 3 is fundamentally broken
(06-15-2012 10:58 AM)Archon_Wing Wrote:  The monsters themselves are glass cannons-- dealing damage disproportional to their own health! The result is that either they die in a few hits or you do the same.

I'm sure you've seen this with the Enchantress follower. It made me guffaw when I first stepped into Act 1 Inferno, the Enchantress would Charm a zombie, and it would turn around and 1-shot other zombies. Free kills!

Regarding dodging - on more than one occasion I've battled one of those Act II Inferno mobs with the large swing-up times - I forget their name - where they bring a large mace up and then slam it on the ground, getting it stuck. The animation would start, I would begin running away, and when it came down I would die (I get 1-shot by that vs. white mobs) - despite being waaaaaay out of its range on my screen. All you need is a little lag, and you're a blood smear.

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06-15-2012, 01:38 PM
Post: #51
RE: Diablo 3 is fundamentally broken
(06-15-2012 01:26 PM)Bolty Wrote:  Regarding dodging - on more than one occasion I've battled one of those Act II Inferno mobs with the large swing-up times - I forget their name - where they bring a large mace up and then slam it on the ground, getting it stuck. The animation would start, I would begin running away, and when it came down I would die (I get 1-shot by that vs. white mobs) - despite being waaaaaay out of its range on my screen. All you need is a little lag, and you're a blood smear.

Berserkers. That long wind-up is the only attack you can dodge, as their normal swing is way too fast. Of course, as you noted, all it takes is a slight bit of lag or desynch and you're toast anyway. 'Course, I died once last night to a 4-pack of Lacuni Huntresses that I did NOT see spawn in (because they definitely didn't spawn WITH the boss; oh no, he had to summon them after I had run 90% of the way across the screen) when they all simultaneously jumped on top of me and 1-shotted me. I was dead before I even saw them. Such a fun game, really. How about the six times I died to a big axe-wielding skeleton (Executioner?) before giving up because he was simply unkillable by me? Shielding + Vortex + Vampiric + Reflects Damage, I could only get his health down by one-third before I finally just ran out of luck and would get Vortexed + killed. I could take exactly one hit (and it would take 75% of my life), and then I had to run. Since I couldn't do nearly enough damage to make him drop a health globe, and since any damage I DID do would reflect back on me (and reset my Brooding), I could never regain enough health in time to survive the next hit. I'd run as long as I could, put terrain between us, but sooner or later he'd Vortex me back and I'd die. Six times I died to him alone, at the entrance to the ruins where Zoltan Kulle's head is. My death timer was 18 seconds. I gave up.

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06-16-2012, 12:02 AM (This post was last modified: 06-16-2012 12:10 AM by FireIceTalon.)
Post: #52
RE: Diablo 3 is fundamentally broken
(06-15-2012 12:44 AM)Elric of Grans Wrote:  Some attacks can still be dodged, usually those that are heavily telegraphed (eg Berserkers using their downward slam). Anything else auto-hits. Personally, something I consider an atrocious decision as dodging was fun.

Yep. Not to mention, you know the game is flawed when the monsters are over powered, and the players are not. Neither way is good, but the monsters being OP is the worse of the two evils. The opposite was kind of the case in D1 in the end game - chars had the potential to be OP (you needed outstanding gear to be OP though), but the monsters weren't so OP that the game felt impossible or overly tedious as it does in D3 Inferno.

Also, it may just be me, but it seems like the affixes aren't as random as you might think. When I play a ranged char, I see vortex, teleporter and fast alot more. When I play Barb, I see Molten, plagued, and Arcane Sentry more. Just had a reaaaallly nasty combo while playing my Barb - Spiderlings with Illusionist, Arcane Sentry, Jailer, and Waller. Pretty much impossible to beat. Rage quitted.

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06-16-2012, 01:09 AM
Post: #53
RE: Diablo 3 is fundamentally broken
(06-16-2012 12:02 AM)RedRadical Wrote:  Also, it may just be me, but it seems like the affixes aren't as random as you might think. When I play a ranged char, I see vortex, teleporter and fast alot more. When I play Barb, I see Molten, plagued, and Arcane Sentry more. Just had a reaaaallly nasty combo while playing my Barb - Spiderlings with Illusionist, Arcane Sentry, Jailer, and Waller. Pretty much impossible to beat. Rage quitted.

From my experience the mob traits seem pretty random once you are far enough into the game, just like they were in D2. In D2 the trait for the boss and champion packs had a minimum level before they could spawn on those groups and there was also weighting factor for how probably each trait was to each other. Too bad that they did not bother to carry over the the trait exclusion set up that D2 had that prevented some traits from spawn together on the same boss/champ group.

However when I play my barb, I am lot more concerned when I see traits like molten, plagued and arcane than my DH would be since those traits are rarely of any real concern to my DH. And the other way around for the other traits you listed. That level of concern over the traits can make strong bias for remembering what you saw unless you really keep your mind focused on looking at their appearance frequency independent of what class you are playing.
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06-16-2012, 02:54 AM
Post: #54
RE: Diablo 3 is fundamentally broken
Yeah, I am sure they are entirely random. Certain affixes tend to be more noticable depending on your class. I never really noticed molten with my Demon Hunter or Wizard, but I sure as heck do with my Monk.

Actually, the other day I was fighting a Rare group and could not get the mouse over the Rare himself to work out what his final modifier was. Too many Minions. Try to check, Minion in the way. Kill it, Minion in the way. After killing an enormous group of Minions, I finally could see it. Hoard. *facepalm* Duh, I should have worked that out Tongue

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06-17-2012, 12:18 AM
Post: #55
RE: Diablo 3 is fundamentally broken
D3 is indeed "broken" beyond Inferno, Act2. Kurosu pinpoints many of the reasons why in his post. One of the flaws that has not been mentioned in this thread is the fact that because NV stacks are crucial to item farming, players cannot be versatile and adjust their characters' builds as needed without compromising their magic find bonuses.

Finding nice stuff after a challenging encounter (more than 1/1000 drops) = fun. Versatility of character roles = fun. Sacrificing either = not fun.

My first character was a mage and I had a bit of fun both in solo and group play until it became apparent midway through Act 2 (inferno) that we (2 demon hunters and a witch) needed a (better) tank, so I rolled a monk. The monk was fun and an adequate tank in most situations until we got to Act 3. We did a few quests in Act 3 by parking most boss packs but it was tedious and unrewarding. My better half made it into Act 4, today, without me - I was elsewhere, having fun.
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06-17-2012, 01:28 AM (This post was last modified: 06-17-2012 01:29 AM by Archon_Wing.)
Post: #56
RE: Diablo 3 is fundamentally broken
http://i.imgur.com/vuQm9.jpg

Infinite chain combos are definitely broken with some traits. Illusionist frozen causes each illusion to freeze meaning well, I can't do crap. It freezes at so many intervals, that any cooldown is going to be not enough. Except go back upstairs but I sorta went around an elite pack up there.

But that's not the broken part. The broken part is that it spawned right at the freaking entrance where everyone's favorite mantra of "kite, kite, kite" does nothing.

Diablo 3 has a terrible habit of spawning monsters insanely close to start locations and waypoints-- d2 never pulled this crap off except maybe in like WSK last level, but still..

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06-17-2012, 02:04 AM
Post: #57
RE: Diablo 3 is fundamentally broken
Thus was spoken by a man who never cleared all the temples in Kurast. Nor the Hell-dungeons in A5.
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06-17-2012, 02:10 AM (This post was last modified: 06-17-2012 02:11 AM by Mavfin.)
Post: #58
RE: Diablo 3 is fundamentally broken
(06-17-2012 02:04 AM)ViralSpiral Wrote:  Thus was spoken by a man who never cleared all the temples in Kurast. Nor the Hell-dungeons in A5.

Yeah, lots of stair/door traps in those. Cool

People must have filtered out a lot of the not-so-great things about D2. I guess at the time we concentrated on what was great, and shrugged off what we couldn't get fixed. Now everyone expects perfection on launch, it seems.

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06-17-2012, 03:00 AM (This post was last modified: 06-17-2012 03:01 AM by BellaStrega.)
Post: #59
RE: Diablo 3 is fundamentally broken
I remember lots of stair and door traps in D2. I remember reading someone's hardcore reports and how she had to take certain possibilities into account, and resetting her single-player map by going onto open battle.net to get rid of a stair trap in the River of Flame.

I dislike the way illusionist interacts with other things, and sometimes effectively works as CC by blocking my character in, as well as inheriting boss affixes and adding to the overall level of stuff going on.
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06-17-2012, 03:22 AM (This post was last modified: 06-17-2012 03:40 AM by Archon_Wing.)
Post: #60
RE: Diablo 3 is fundamentally broken
(06-17-2012 02:04 AM)ViralSpiral Wrote:  Thus was spoken by a man who never cleared all the temples in Kurast. Nor the Hell-dungeons in A5.

Perhaps LOD must have fixed them? Because aside from the last floor of the Worldstone Keep, there weren't any unavoidable death traps that I personally encountered? Perhaps I was luckier back then. I have heard of the Duriel death trap "death on load", but that was largely mitigated too.

It might also be because they don't have such overpowered abilities so even if they showed up, they could easily be defeated. Wink There is a corrupted rogue pack in the temples that does force the battle to be rather close quarters, but nothing to the degree in d3.

And certainly the majority of each waypoint was largely safe when I entered.

I've taken half a dozen hc characters to the end of hell including those act 3 doldrums, so anything like that would have been pretty notable.

(06-17-2012 02:10 AM)Mavfin Wrote:  
(06-17-2012 02:04 AM)ViralSpiral Wrote:  Thus was spoken by a man who never cleared all the temples in Kurast. Nor the Hell-dungeons in A5.

Yeah, lots of stair/door traps in those. Cool

People must have filtered out a lot of the not-so-great things about D2. I guess at the time we concentrated on what was great, and shrugged off what we couldn't get fixed. Now everyone expects perfection on launch, it seems.

Please keep with the strawman arguments, instead of any justification for what's going on. Your dismissive tone to many critical posts is getting tiring. Nobody ever expected a perfect game, so addressing nonexistent people doesn't seem like a proper use of time.

Oh sorry. I had a lot of stuff to criticize about D2 too, and that was by far not a perfect game.

The thing is that waypoint/entrance traps are more common than not than in d2, and is it that much to express progression in the past 13 years? Instead we get a battle.net system that is objectively worse than the one put out so many years ago by lacking features (no user channels...) and many things in the game feel like a step backwards such as the town monster exploit which is still not addressed, in which I felt that 13 years of experience has taught people nothing. There's also no pvp. This isn't about perfection; parts of Diablo 3 is the equivalent of delivering a meal half cooked.

I don't remember Diablo 2 potentially resulting in instant death just by clicking join game, for example.

Was Diablo 2 a good game at release? Answers may vary. Except why are we comparing it to that? Shouldn't we compare it to where the franchise left off and not go back to square one to reinvent the wheel?

So I'm not here to glorify d2 at all. I just expect higher standards than a 1999 game.

In any case, I am, still at the moment playing Diablo 3 so let's not bring the nostalgia glasses back in here.

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