Best Two Person Team to Defeat Normal Untwinked

[crayhorse]

A friend and I like to play through Diablo 3 normal level untwinked as quickly and efficiently as possible. We want to spend as little time shopping for gear as possible. What two character classes should we play to achieve that? Thank you!

[DeeBye]

Pick two character classes out of a hat, and then pick your skills out of a somewhat larger hat. You'll do fine.

[MongoJerry]

If all you're looking at is Normal difficulty and maybe Nightmare once you get there, then it really doesn't matter about the combination. Just play whatever classes feel most appealing to the two of you. If you want a synergistic combination, then having one play melee and one play a ranged character is good.

[crayhorse]

Which character classes are the least equipment-dependent?

[Elric of Grans]

None. All classes rely on equipment equally. That said, you do not need to farm for gear in Normal difficulty. Whatever drops is fine, and both players get separate drops (so you both get enough gear, and can swap if what you got was better for the other person).

[MongoJerry]

Always check the Fence in each town -- he sells rings and amulets and some simple looking ones with +damage on them can make a big boost to your dps. You don't need to worry about twinking for normal at all. You don't for nightmare or hell, either, but it can help to farm some areas a bit to obtain crafting materials when you first start a difficulty.

And, well, technically, you don't need to twink for Inferno, either, but at that point, you'll need to spend a lot more time farming. However, you were just talking about normal, so just go have fun with whatever classes sound fun to you.

[Concillian]

Okay there's two class combos you absolutely don't want:

Wiz + Witch Doctor
and
Monk + Demon Hunter

The reason is obvious... they both have the same prime stat and you'll both want the same gear.

weapons are really important for every class, and every class wants the same thing high damage with a +damage modifier and either a prime stat or a socket to add even more damage. So you might want to choose classes that have different weapon preferences too.

Wizards often want 2H weapons, where Monks often want to dual wield 1H weapons... so Wiz + Monk is a good duo.
Two ranged works equally well, as long as it's not Wizard and Witch Doctor, as they want the same gear.
That's pretty much all you need to worry about. The game design has made gear MATTER for every class. It's critically important to the point that it's almost all that does matter.

You probably want to have one person upgrade the jeweler and the other upgrade the smith so you don't have to spend extra gold. If you're running through untwinked, you may actually be crafting things as you level, which will be a significant gold sink.

[crayhorse]

Thanks, all.

[MongoJerry]

Wizards often want 2H weapons

We do? I don't think I've ever used one past maybe level 10.

[Frag]

Wizards often want 2H weapons

We do? I don't think I've ever used one past maybe level 10.

You're hardcore, mate

[Mirajj]

Okay there's two class combos you absolutely don't want:

Wiz + Witch Doctor
and
Monk + Demon Hunter

The reason is obvious... they both have the same prime stat and you'll both want the same gear.

What does it matter if they 'want' the same gear...they each get their own drops.

[Treesh]

Okay there's two class combos you absolutely don't want:

Wiz + Witch Doctor
and
Monk + Demon Hunter

The reason is obvious... they both have the same prime stat and you'll both want the same gear.

What does it matter if they 'want' the same gear...they each get their own drops.

But when you play in a group, especially a set group, if there's something you don't need, you offer it to the other person/people. If you both are going for the same gear, there's less chance of that sharing. You can get hand me down gear, but it effectively limits your pool of usable gear from drops.

[MongoJerry]

Wizards often want 2H weapons

We do? I don't think I've ever used one past maybe level 10.

You're hardcore, mate

Yeah, but even before I throw on a shield in the mid-40's, I still use Wizard orb off-hands rather than 2-handed weapons. The weapon type in my main hand may vary, but I've yet to see a two-hander that does better dps and stat-wise than a good one-hander and an orb.

[Quark]

Yeah, but even before I throw on a shield in the mid-40's, I still use Wizard orb off-hands rather than 2-handed weapons. The weapon type in my main hand may vary, but I've yet to see a two-hander that does better dps and stat-wise than a good one-hander and an orb.

Your 2H luck must suck. It only takes one 2H to be good - it takes two different drops for 1H/Source to be good. Also, being 1H/Source leads itself to an entirely different build than 2H. Some skills (Blizzard) flat out suck with 1H, and some skills (Disintegrate) just kill your AP with a 1H.

Ack, guess which skills have been in my builds forever.

People finally got around to testing Hydra better and attack speed doesn't determine how fast hydra attacks, but it does boost its damage.

Signature favors fast, not having the AP issue. Arcane Orb I've seen pros/cons for each. While kiting, AP isn't as much of an issue so you want speed. While not kiting, 1H will run you dry really really fast.

[Roland]

People finally got around to testing Hydra better and attack speed doesn't determine how fast hydra attacks, but it does boost its damage.

I was wondering about that. Attack speed definitely alters your Sentry's fire rate, so higher attack speed is crucial to a Demon Hunter utilizing Sentry (not to mention it allows you to get off quick shots, which improves your mobility, and thus survival).

[MongoJerry]

Your 2H luck must suck. It only takes one 2H to be good - it takes two different drops for 1H/Source to be good. Also, being 1H/Source leads itself to an entirely different build than 2H. Some skills (Blizzard) flat out suck with 1H, and some skills (Disintegrate) just kill your AP with a 1H.

I'm just saying that I have yet to find a 2-hander that has ever even competed with a 1H/Orb of the same level. The big benefits of 1H/Orb are that you have two items providing statistics instead of just one. I have yet to see a 2-hander have the int+vitality of a 1H/Orb combo, for example. Plus, you can socket both the weapon and off-hand. Plus, you can get other miscellaneous stats on both items like +life per hit or wizard AP abilities. Meanwhile, even the dps on 2-handers I've found just really aren't that much higher than the dps on 1-handers I've found. Tack on an orb adding +damage and intelligence, and I've always found 1H/orb combos doing more damage than a 2-hander alone.

It's true what you're saying about fast versus slow -- *if* your character's dps with both are equal. You can, though, use a slow 1-handed mace to get some of that slowness back. However, keep in mind, too, that faster weapons get more benefit from +damage on rings, amulets, and off-hands.

Now, the benefit of using a 2-hander is usually that it's slow, which enables one to have greater AP efficiency (assuming the dps is the same, a concent that I don't buy into wholeheartedly). So, the question is how much time do you spend out of AP when you would really like to be shooting? Personally, I've found that once I get to the Arcane Orb rune "Tap the Source" that I really don't have very many problems with AP -- especially in the most dangerous situations where I have to kite. In addition, in those situations, it's nice to be able to more quickly cast my defensive skills.

However, again, the 2-hand versus 1-hand/orb isn't necessarily an arguement about fast versus slow, because there are slow 1-handed weapons out there. I've just found that when all of the stats are added up that a 1-hand/orb combo is better all around.

And, of course, in hardcore, a shield is *very* helpful, but that's a different topic.

[Quark]

I'm just saying that I have yet to find a 2-hander that has ever even competed with a 1H/Orb of the same level. The big benefits of 1H/Orb are that you have two items providing statistics instead of just one. I have yet to see a 2-hander have the int+vitality of a 1H/Orb combo, for example. Plus, you can socket both the weapon and off-hand. Plus, you can get other miscellaneous stats on both items like +life per hit or wizard AP abilities. Meanwhile, even the dps on 2-handers I've found just really aren't that much higher than the dps on 1-handers I've found. Tack on an orb adding +damage and intelligence, and I've always found 1H/orb combos doing more damage than a 2-hander alone.

However, again, the 2-hand versus 1-hand/orb isn't necessarily an arguement about fast versus slow, because there are slow 1-handed weapons out there. I've just found that when all of the stats are added up that a 1-hand/orb combo is better all around.

Your experience runs counter to mine. 2H? 14k dps. 1H+Source? 12k dps. It's been that way since after the teens for me, and nothing else really matters.

It's true what you're saying about fast versus slow -- *if* your character's dps with both are equal. You can, though, use a slow 1-handed mace to get some of that slowness back. However, keep in mind, too, that faster weapons get more benefit from +damage on rings, amulets, and off-hands.

Careful with that, is it fully tested yet? I know rune +damage don't get full benefit unless they're on 0.9 speed weapons. The numbers I saw showed that 1.5 benefited most from pure DPS perspective (the attack speed outweighed the penalty), but the ranking was something like this (IIRC): 1.5 > 1.4 ~ 0.9 > 1.0 > 1.3 > 1.1 > 1.2.

[MongoJerry]

Careful with that, is it fully tested yet? I know rune +damage don't get full benefit unless they're on 0.9 speed weapons. The numbers I saw showed that 1.5 benefited most from pure DPS perspective (the attack speed outweighed the penalty), but the ranking was something like this (IIRC): 1.5 > 1.4 ~ 0.9 > 1.0 > 1.3 > 1.1 > 1.2.

I guess I missed that study. What do you mean by "rune +damage?" My cursory testing has shown +damage on rings and amulets to work exactly like the straight damage on weapons so that a fast weapon would benefit more from it, but I'll verify this with more strict testing procedures later.

[Quark]

Ruby equipped to weapons adds +damage. The +damage added is less than what's listed on the Ruby unless it's a 0.90 weapon.