Non-splat Werewolf

[swirly]

I have a little monk working her way through hardcore nightmare. Currently on Act 3. I think of her as a non-splat werewolf because her play style feels much like the old D2 werewolf and preventing splat is an overall goal with her and her skill selections.

Fists of Thunder: Thunderclap hits fast and does some AOE. It is great fun to teleport all over attacking things. This gives a lot of the werewolf feel with the fast attacks and the teleport makes it feel faster even though movement speed isn't actually increased by the build. I've been running with life on hit items too lately and those just work amazing with this skill.

Seven-Sided Strike: Sudden Assualt gives me sudden burst when I need it. It works great on small numbers, but tends to be a little diffuse on large numbers. The build handles large numbers very easily though so mostly this gets saved for when there is a small number I need to hit hard. I've actually considered various other options here, but nothing really seems to work better yet. Originally I chose it mainly because it had teleport which I was loving from Thunderclap and so figured the more the merrier! It does have a bit of a Werewolf's Fury feel to it though with the multiple attacks making for big burst.

Sweeping Wind: Blade Storm handles swarms easily and adds a ton to the feel of the character. Having this running often gives me the urge to try and keep it running for as long as possible. So I'll run/teleport from pack to pack to just try and keep this up for as long as possible. Which feels much like the Werewolf and trying to keep the life steal stacks up. It is also worth noting that Thunderclap works well with this due to being able to teleport to some vases/rocks to refresh the duration whereas if you didn't have that then the items would get broke by the wind before you reached them.

Breath of Heaven: Circle of Life is the big heal both for me and for my allies. Part of the philosophy with the build is to assume you are going to take some hits. Dodge always has fail points where some damage gets through. So the idea is that you will dodge some attacks, but when one gets through you heal back up to be ready for when the next one gets through.

Mantra of Evasion: Divine Protection serves multiple purposes. I tend to keep the 3 second activation up a large amount of the time which helps me dodge more attacks. Since I'm constantly hitting it I also get a small heal from it each time which helps heal me up when I do get hit. (this is due to the passive I'll talk about later) The rune on it buys me time if I get into a bad situation and seem unable to keep up with the damage. 80% damage reduction seems pretty decent at giving me breathing space to catch back up. I also like that it affects the whole group so it could save friends I end up playing with from dying which is quite appealing in hardcore.

Serenity: Tranquility is another catch up skill. If I know a big hit is coming I can pop it early to avoid it completely or if I happen to get low I can pop it to buy time to catch back up. Getting out of freeze/jailor is also nice. I debated going with Peaceful Repose so that if I popped this while low I'd automatically get healed up more. Currently running with Tranquility though just because I can see moments in hardcore where breaking a friend out of a freeze/jailor could be more important. I'm generally liking how the build feels very group friendly.

Transcendence is part of the core of the build. It makes everything I do (other than Thunderclap) heal me for some amount. So when I am popping my mantra every three seconds I am also topping myself off from the few hits that get through. Even popping a Seven-Sided Strike heals me. So I can have lots of options to maintain my life level.

Seize the Initiative seems like a core ability to any monk. No matter what you do; you will get hit. So having your primary stat also increase armor is very nice. The more armor the less the hits that do get through hurt and the easier it is to top yourself back off from them.

Near Death Experience is the last resort option. Hopefully you never reach a point where it goes off due to all the other non-splat abilities like the Mantra and Serenity. It is yet another redundancy which since I'm playing hardcore is worth it I think.

So the trick is going to be maintaining a vit level that is high enough to keep me from dying from a few attacks getting through while maintaining my damage/dodge through dex and also finding life on hit/life per spirit spent/life steal modifiers. Not to mention maintaining two strong weapons for dual wielding since the faster this build hits the better.

Edit: I forgot to link the build. Here it is.

[swirly]

Just had my first death due to disconnect. Broke a door open with simple normal skeletons behind it and my home network went down. Came back to this character dead. Oh well, tis the price for playing hardcore. Just noting this mainly to say this won't be updated for a bit since I have to start over.

Edit: Just a note to say I'm not complaining at blizzard requiring online play with this comment. I'd have been online playing even if they didn't require it. So not their fault there. I had slight hopes they would have caught the disconnect and my character not be dead, but I'm not hugely upset that they didn't. Such is just how things go.

[hazzen]

How much spirit regen did you have with that build? I'm finding I either need to run Sweeping Wind: Inner Storm or Mantra of Healing: Circular Breathing to keep my spirit up at happy levels, where happy means I can Mantra-spam or Kick-spam to regain health via Transcendence. I was only getting 1.7ish from equipment but had to drop that weapon when I hit Act III NM because the DPS wasn't cutting it. I'm at 0 base regen right now, making Circular Breathing almost necessary (plus Templar follower with the resource regen skill).

Also: like without kick is not a life I considered - how did you deal with cases when you needed breathing room/stun? I play solo, and I can't imagine how I would survive without Kick: Scorpion Sting or Kick: Sweeping Armada, depending on density of mobs (this is in NM Act IV)

[swirly]

Honestly, she was a beast. She really just devoured 90% of the content up till that disconnect. I had been even trying not to twink her any didn't hand down any gear. Only used gems of the same quality as ones I saw dropping. Had no extra pages on crafts so was entirely dependent on what she found herself for that too. Even with that she just ate through everything. It was like a meat grinder the way she chewed through mobs. The only things that ever gave her trouble would be especially hard hitting mobs. Like on Act 3 nightmare there were those big abomination looking guys. I had a champion pack of those that I believe were extra health+something else. There were moments there where too many things ended up on cooldown and popping my mantra wasn't quite enough and so I had to back off and wait some before charging back in. On that pull I felt like having the spirit gaining rune on Winds would have possibly made me able to keep up with the damage with mantra better. So I was wondering if I would have to do some kind of swap like that when it came to hell. I also considered dropping Seven-Sided Strike for another cooldown of some sort, but I seem to enjoy the character a lot less with Thunderclap on the mouse. So since I have to keep that on the keyboard it really limits my option there. But if I can get used to that then that would be a place to potentially put another spirit gaining skill if I seem to need it or another cooldown if I need one more to hold me while the others tick down.

Overall she was a lawn mower though. Both her weapons had life on hit and she could just bounce around killing everything with occasional mantra pops. So spirit was never an issue during those times. I do wonder if it would become one later though.

Edit: I'm actually trying to look at the disconnect death as a good thing. This time I'm going to go even more strict with the no twinking. I've set aside 4 rows of stash space for her and I'll toss any gems/mats she finds there and only use strictly what she finds herself even for that. Maybe it will slow her some, but I am highly highly doubtful. I'm expecting her still to eat through mobs. We'll see though.

[swirly]

There are actually a couple of build options to consider if spirit eventually becomes an issue.

1: Swap out Blade Storm for Inner Storm. I feel like I'll miss the extra 15% weapon damage on it, but the spirit gain could be worth it.

2: Swap out Thunderclap for Quickening and Seven-Sided Strike for Dashing Strike: Quicksilver (or possibly Blinding Speed depending on how the cost feels). You lose the teleport from Thunderclap which hurts, but you sort of gain it back with Dashing Strike.

3: Put Thunderclap on the mouse button and swap out Seven-Sided Strike for Earth Ally. Gains you 10% max life which could help survive situations longer and he taunts which might give you more time to gain spirit without needing cooldowns.

4: Put Thunderclap on the mouse button and swap out Seven-Sided Strike for Inner Sanctuary: Circle of Protection. Not obviously a spirit gain, but having another cooldown could make you have to pop mantra less and thus give you more time to gain spirit.

5: Put Thunderclap on the mouse button and swap out Seven-Sided Strike for Air Ally and see how his 2% spirit gain feels.

I think those are even listed in order of the ones I have the best feeling about to the ones I have the worst feeling about. I'm still mostly hopeful not to need to do any of them, but that will be hard to tell till I'm in Hell. The gain from dual wield Thunderclap seems pretty decent so far.

[swirly]

Another option I've considered instead of Seven-Sided Strike is Tempest Rush (either Northern Breeze or Slipstream). What this would do is give me a way to get out of pin type scenarios. If I play bad and three champs get me pinned against a wall then I could Tempest Rush through them to get free. I can see that saving my life. The issue is that I don't like using it just for the movement. It's a damage decrease to use it instead of my primary attacks and the slow/knockback spread mobs out so they aren't in my Wind and so actually work counter to the build. I thought I'd mention it anyway though cause it is something I've considered and the move through mobs option can sometimes be very important. I also do find that I miss the burst from Seven-Sided when I get rid of it.

[FoxBat]

I'm not a huge fan of seven-sided strike, as mentioned all it does is burst down single targets, but most single targets aren't that threatening. As HC you probably want some kind of survival utility instead, or at least when you get back up to a level where dying hurts.

Resolve is extremely awesome with sweeping wind, it can have a larger effect than the armor boost even.

Speaking of sweeping wind, I tend to like wind master because it's much easier to keep it going between packs or when kiting like crazy from a boss, and keeping it going means you're much more likely to have 3 stacks. The flame version can be worthwhile if you just want to trigger resolve over a larger area.

Ally is a very cheap tank, rather sturdy for zero cooldown and a paltry 15? spirit, which you can cast on the move. Certainly cheaper than trying to heal the damage you would otherwise absorb. Air gives you a bit more aoe damage to stack with your wind skill.

[Quark]

I'm not a huge fan of seven-sided strike, as mentioned all it does is burst down single targets, but most single targets aren't that threatening. As HC you probably want some kind of survival utility instead, or at least when you get back up to a level where dying hurts.

I'm not too far on my monk myself (do have SSS at least), but in watching other monks, this really isn't true. SSS timed properly is another immunity. This is incredibly useful for Frozen packs and telegraphed attacks, among other things.

Just be careful in coop - a tank who hits SSS will send all the mobs to the other players.

[Concillian]

As HC you probably want some kind of survival utility instead, or at least when you get back up to a level where dying hurts.

Err... dying hurts at any level... I think you meant something different from what you typed.

[Erigion]

I'm not a huge fan of seven-sided strike, as mentioned all it does is burst down single targets, but most single targets aren't that threatening. As HC you probably want some kind of survival utility instead, or at least when you get back up to a level where dying hurts.

I'm not too far on my monk myself (do have SSS at least), but in watching other monks, this really isn't true. SSS timed properly is another immunity. This is incredibly useful for Frozen packs and telegraphed attacks, among other things.

Just be careful in coop - a tank who hits SSS will send all the mobs to the other players.

Yea, I'm in A1 Hell and SSS is my option of last resort when all my other healing abilities are in cooldown. The damage isn't as important as it gives me invulnerability for a bit and allowing my other skills to refresh. But in Normal and Nightmare, it's not really needed and another skill could be used for variety's sake. Not that you really need too many to get through the first two difficulties.

[hazzen]

Another option I've considered instead of Seven-Sided Strike is Tempest Rush (either Northern Breeze or Slipstream). What this would do is give me a way to get out of pin type scenarios. If I play bad and three champs get me pinned against a wall then I could Tempest Rush through them to get free. I can see that saving my life. The issue is that I don't like using it just for the movement. It's a damage decrease to use it instead of my primary attacks and the slow/knockback spread mobs out so they aren't in my Wind and so actually work counter to the build. I thought I'd mention it anyway though cause it is something I've considered and the move through mobs option can sometimes be very important. I also do find that I miss the burst from Seven-Sided when I get rid of it.

I switched to Tempest Rush over Kick in Act IV NM and it made a world of difference - it still gets me out of telegraphed attacks with the additional benefit of costing less spirit (so I always have it) and avoiding AoE death (Arcane, Desecrator, Plagued, etc), and leaving me free to do all my spirit spamming with a mantra.

At least, it was good until I hit a Jailer Arcane pack. It was very dangerous to only have one escape skill (Serenity). I'm not HC on this toon so it wasn't the end of the world, but I can see the benefit of either SSS or Dashing Strike as an additional "Get out of Jail Free" button.

[FoxBat]

I'm not too far on my monk myself (do have SSS at least), but in watching other monks, this really isn't true. SSS timed properly is another immunity. This is incredibly useful for Frozen packs and telegraphed attacks, among other things.

This is true, I started writing it but somehow erased it. That's the only good thing I can say about this skill actually! If I'm choosing between it and say serenity, I'd much rather have the latter due to shorter cooldown and CC break. You might try the teleport rune for getting out of bad situations, but that's way less reliable than tempest rush (although arguably more versatile?)

[swirly]

Resolve is extremely awesome with sweeping wind, it can have a larger effect than the armor boost even.

I hadn't even thought of that Sweeping Wind hits would trigger the 25% damage reduction. That is a very good point. I'll have to test at some point how much armor Seize the Initiative is actually giving and try to judge which I like better. I suppose Seize is stronger against ranged since they might not be in the Wind, but it does bring up an option to consider. There is a small part of me that says I could swap out near death experience and run both. Just cause Near death is such a one trick pony. It isn't like the witch doctor version that has another side benefit. Yet being hardcore I'm not sure I can bring myself to do that. I don't get Near Death till 58 though so I could run both of them till that point just to see how it feels. I believe I was running The Guardian's Path instead as that third temporary passive.

At least, it was good until I hit a Jailer Arcane pack. It was very dangerous to only have one escape skill (Serenity). I'm not HC on this toon so it wasn't the end of the world, but I can see the benefit of either SSS or Dashing Strike as an additional "Get out of Jail Free" button.

Does SSS and Dashing break Jailor? I hadn't even tried that. I know some are talking about using it before predictable things to avoid those (like frozen) which I understand. I just didn't even think to see if those skills would end a Jailor effect.

[hazzen]

At least, it was good until I hit a Jailer Arcane pack. It was very dangerous to only have one escape skill (Serenity). I'm not HC on this toon so it wasn't the end of the world, but I can see the benefit of either SSS or Dashing Strike as an additional "Get out of Jail Free" button.

Does SSS and Dashing break Jailor? I hadn't even tried that. I know some are talking about using it before predictable things to avoid those (like frozen) which I understand. I just didn't even think to see if those skills would end a Jailor effect.

I haven't been running SSS, but I guess it does the same thing as Dashing Strike and FoT: Thunderclap: you can teleport but are still jailed at your destination. Not technically ending the effect but still allowing somewhat free movement, especially with Quicksilver.

[swirly]

So I made it back to 47 with this character. She was feeling a bit less powerful than my other one due to weaker gear. I also was feeling slightly less happy with Sweeping Wind and so I tried swapping it out for Mystic Ally (whatever the water one is called) as a test for what the earth one would be like later on. Then I proceeded to be trapped by a swarm of scorpion things in Act 3 and die. So this tells me a couple of things. Using extra mats does indeed make a noticeable strength difference in a character (I'd say about the equivalent to the difference in having a frenzy shrine and not having one.) It also tells me that I either need Sweeping Wind to clear out masses like that or need something like Tempest Rush to escape such situations. Possibly both. So the question now for me is when I reroll do I plan on using Tempest Rush instead of Seven Sided Strike (which I was liking this time) or do I plan on using it instead of Sweeping Wind. Things did feel like they were dying slower without Sweeping Wind so I'm thinking that I'll go back to using that and swap Tempest for Seven. I lose an invulnerabilty, but gain an escape. I might just go back to the drawing board some instead though cause there are other things I am interested by like the dodge adding rune instead of the teleport/AOE one. So the whole build is rather up in the air now for me. I think what really killed me though was simply not being able to get away for a moment which Tempest would indeed solve.

[swirly]

I've given it some thought and I'm probably going with http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/mo...dXY!ZZbZZZ this time.

Lightning Flash instead of Thunderclap. This lowers my AOE some, but gives me better avoidance.

Tempest Rush (Tailwind) instead of Seven-Sided Strike (Sudden Assualt). I'll miss the burst of SSS and the avoidance from being able to pop it and go immune for a bit, but hopefully the dodge from Lightning Flash will counter that and I think the travelling through mobs use of Tempest Rush will be stronger. Using the movement speed rune will also let me run away better if I need to.

Sweeping Wind (Blade Storm) which I had originally, but was experimenting getting away from when I died. I think the anti-swarm power of it is needed. Especially with me not using Thunderclap anymore.

The Guardian's Path instead of Resolve/Near Death Experience. NDE is still tempting, but I just hate that it does nothing else. Of course the one time it does do something is critical in hardcore, but I'm still thinking I'll skip it. Not that I ever made it high enough to use in the first place. Resolve is good, especially with Sweeping Wind, but I think I want to try going heavy dodge this time which TGP helps with. I was using a shield when I died and I really felt like I could feel the lack from not dual-wielding. So I'm going to try and get back to that.

GDP gives 15% dodge. LF gives 16% if I am attacking something. Mantra gives 15% + 15% if I activate it. I have no idea if those add for 61% dodge, but I'm doubtful. Surely some of it must be multiplicative instead. Still, I think I'm going to go with that plan and see what happens. Push my dodge high and see if I can heal/serenity through bad streaks.

Edit: Plus I'm going to try and more heavily favor life on hit. I feel like I didn't end up with any on my gear when I died and that is probably a reason why as well. So I'm going to try and slightly favor that if I can. Even if it means losing some damage in order to do so.

[Frag]

It's all additive for the dodge, Swirly.

[PapaSmurf]

It's all additive for the dodge, Swirly.

Based on my experience and reading through other posts I'm pretty sure it's multiplicative. I.e. 15% dodge means 85% chance to be hit. Two skills that give 15% dodge give .85*.85 or 72.25% chance to get hit or 27.75% chance to dodge.

[swirly]

I've recorded some numbers.

Level: 20
Dex: 151
Hover dodge: 11.28%
Listed dodge: 11.3%

Mantra: 24.6%
Mantra+Activation: 35.9%

FL: 25.5%
FL+Mantra: 36.6%
FL+Mantra+Activation: 46.1%

Looks multiplicative to me just from looking at them. I've not done the calculations.

[Kevin]

What PapaSmurf said which can be written thusly if you want it to spit out a percentage.

Total Dodge = (1 - ((1 - Dodge %1) * (1 - Dodge %2) * ... * (1 - Dodge %n)))*100

I've tested and verified.

So if you have base 16% dodge from dex, 15% from mantra and 15% from the passive that gives you 15% if you use two 1H weapons, and you get 15% more from the one attack rune you get.

Total Dodge = ( 1 - ( ( 1 - .16) * ( 1 - .15 ) * ( 1 - .15) * ( 1 - .15 ) ) * 100
= ( 1 - ( .84 * .85 * .85 * .85 ) ) * 100
= ( 1 - .515865 ) * 100
= 48.4135%


I've started a Google spreadsheet where I'm putting several of the formulas I've seen around, or come up with, and had a chance to test. Even built the step function for dex to dodge which for me was fun since I'm not a big spreadsheet guy.