The Auction House III: Evil is Back

[Bolty]

[It's possible] that Diablo III is actually a gigantic gambling mechanism, Activision/Blizzard is the "house," and the game is an overlay for what basically amounts to pulling a slot machine. That Blizzard's sole reason to create Diablo III is to implement (and make money from) this RMT auction house. Your goal as a player is to be talked into using this auction house, and eventually get addicted to it, in a game that's all about the items you wear and a system that prevents you from getting all the best items without purchasing them from the AH.

Time will prove or disprove [this] theory; there's no way to tell this for sure one way or the other until the game's been out for a while and we can see what direction it takes.

--Bolty, September 13 2011

It looks to me like Daeity was right. And I've only been level 60 for 2 days.

Diablo III is a fun game. The variety of skills, the fast-paced frenetic gameplay, the multiplayer, the joy of advancing your character through Normal, Nightmare, and Hell difficulties. And then you hit level 60, and can delve into the incredibly challenging Inferno difficulty you've heard so much about. The gear you've acquired in the previous difficulties is really just a "starter set;" the game resets with Inferno difficulty, and you have to farm this mode a ton just to make slight advancements. You need to take the mindset going in that you're starting over from scratch; the REAL game begins with Inferno difficulty and the gear you gain there. Ask anyone who has been there a while.

Unfortunately, it doesn't take long to realize something: Diablo III's end-game isn't Inferno difficulty.

It's the Auction House. And that's exactly the way Blizzard wants it. Inferno difficulty is not there to challenge you as a player; it's there to push you into using the Auction House, and by extension, the Real Money Auction House - where Blizzard makes their money.

This really doesn't become apparent to you until you hit Inferno difficulty. The reason is simple: if the game's too hard on previous difficulties, you can simply level up to become stronger, and the difficulty curve is lenient enough so that you can do amazing things with sub-par gear. Step into Inferno mode and watch yourself get 1-shot by white mob abilities, and you realize that skill alone isn't going to help you. You need gear. The obvious thought to that is "well, I can farm the gear!" This is why the Nephalem Valor buff exists, right? You get a sweet stacking (up to 5) magic find buff after each champion or rare pack you defeat once you reach level 60. This gives you lots of rare drops to pick up and fawn over.

Once you start doing the math, though, you start realizing that there are literally hundreds of millions of combinations of stats that can appear on these items. Even then, you can get an awesome item that's totally useless to your character. You can play for six hours and not find a single upgrade - although you may perhaps find a semi-decent item for another class.

To the Auction House! Sell that item, and get the cash to buy something useful to you. So, wait a minute. What just happened? You played the game for six hours so that you could generate some gold. You can then use that gold to find something useful to you. Once you have a decent amount of base gold, you can start trading more intensely to gain upgrades.

Hey look, that sword is undervalued. I bet I can buy that up and re-list it for a lot more. That'll give me the gold to get that set item I've been looking at. Hmm, now I'm low on gold. Let me play a bit to farm up some more gear to sell.

(fast-forward 3 months)

Ah, time to "play" Diablo III. Let me log in and monitor my sales. Hey look, someone finally posted a helm that's an upgrade for me. I'll snag that. Hmm, those 5 items there can probably be re-listed for profit. I'll hang out on the AH for another hour or two; this is primetime, so some new items might be coming in at any moment. Okay! That was a great evening, I snagged 2 upgrades and made another 5 million gold!

Diablo III has now become the Auction House. Don't think this won't happen to addicted players. It won't be about playing the game anymore, it'll be about playing the Auction House. It's the inevitable end-game result of Blizzard's game design.

Diablo III is built on gear (after level 60), but it is not an achievement-based gear system. In World of Warcraft, you get gear as a reward for achievement. In Diablo III, you get gear via gold (or real-life money once that's available). You make gold initially by playing the game to farm up items - most items you find will be for selling on the AH, not for using on your character - and eventually you just stop playing the game altogether because you're far more likely to get upgrades from the Auction House. As your gear in Diablo III improves, the odds of actually getting a drop that's an upgrade from playing the game itself go down and down and down. It'll be far more effective to login each game session and camp the Auction House, playing the buy/sell game to ensure you have the liquidity to purchase things you want.

You may be sitting here thinking "nah, I won't do that, I'll play the game and earn my rewards without using the Auction House." If you are, I'd venture you haven't been playing Inferno difficulty for long. It's just not viable to take this approach for a sustained period without burning out, and you'll realize this at some point - whether it's in Act 1, Act 2, Act 3, or if you're a masochist - Act 4. Even if you play for hundreds of hours to get gear and never use the Auction House to clear Inferno difficulty, you will STILL be able to substantially upgrade your character by using the Auction House. It's why so many players are getting to level 60, playing for a bit, and then quitting or re-rolling. No amount of skill will get you past the gear requirements imposed by Inferno difficulty, and the gear drops are more of a mechanism to generate wealth for purchasing upgrades useful to you. At some point, you will realize that playing the actual game isn't nearly as "useful" to your character as playing the Auction House, so if you're not into that sort of thing, you wind up quitting or re-rolling.

Some common arguments heard are:

1) "Well, this is just because Inferno difficulty is too hard. Blizzard will nerf it." I don't see this changing anything. The end game, the true way to advance your character past any artificial point, is to play the Auction House. You may feel that there's no reason to do so once you've defeated the hardest difficulty in the game, but many people won't. People want to progress their characters; it's part of why we play RPGs. You're not playing Diablo III for the PLOT, are you? You saw it all in Normal difficulty! Diablo II never had a Inferno difficulty, and was thus much easier than Diablo III in end-game, but people still played for ages to try to get better items. If Diablo II had an Auction House, its end-game would have wound up the same as Diablo III's.

2) "You're just saying this because you want to rush through Inferno difficulty. Take it slow and enjoy it!" Even though this is usually only said by those who haven't gotten to Inferno difficulty yet, I think it still misses the overall point. It doesn't matter where the game itself stops. The rarity of actual, good, useful end-game drops is so insanely high (think high-end runewords of Diablo II) that you will not see them after thousands of hours of play. You will see them in the Auction House, though, because millions of players are playing millions of games every day and generating items. It's one big slot machine, and even if you don't pull the winning lever, someone out there did. People play Diablo III for character advancement, and in the end, no matter where that end is, the only realistic way to advance your character will be the Auction House. You may have the patience required to farm for an incredibly long time in Inferno difficulty, but in the end - even if you beat all of Inferno this way - you're still going to need to go to the Auction House if you want to progress further.

If you're the type of player who believes that skill should be rewarded with gear, you're going to get frustrated at some point. Where that point is will depend on the player, but you'll get there. And if you don't get pulled into the Auction House metagame - how long until people are writing programs that overlay onto Diablo III's Auction House, I wonder - you're probably going to go look somewhere else. Torchlight II, anyone?

Now, keep in mind that despite the tone of this post, I'm still playing Diablo III. I'd like to "beat" the game in the sense of clearing Inferno difficulty, and try out the other classes. But I don't want to get sucked into the Auction House end-game, so there's only so-much shelf-life this game has for me. Back to World of Warcrack when MoP's released!

[TPJ]

Ah, time to "play" Diablo III. Let me log in and monitor my sales. Hey look, someone finally posted a helm that's an upgrade for me. I'll snag that. Hmm, those 5 items there can probably be re-listed for profit. I'll hang out on the AH for another hour or two; this is primetime, so some new items might be coming in at any moment. Okay! That was a great evening, I snagged 2 upgrades and made another 5 million gold!

Diablo III has now become the Auction House. Don't think this won't happen to addicted players. It won't be about playing the game anymore, it'll be about playing the Auction House. It's the inevitable end-game result of Blizzard's game design.

I'd be so happy to come back here later and say you were wrong.

I hope I get to do that!

[Brimstone]

Sounds like an environment ripe for Variant Scum to me. SNOB runs, with the generally sub-par conditions of Legendary items? Yes, please. Let the addicted masses have their uberleet perfectly-matched RMAH-obtained gearsets. I wonder how viable a character can be using only their class-specific gearslots... how far could a Berzerker build get with just a pair of MW axes and a harness? Once I get my head around the game (I haven't hit 60 yet on my first barbarian yet), I plan to find out.

[Mavfin]

What you posted, Bolty, may be true for the 'Only Inferno matters' players, and of course, the people who have done hardcore raiding for years in WoW will be right at the top of the list for that. It all depends on what you expect. If you continue the hardcore raid mentality, and can't be behind in gear, or else you hold your buddies back, then yeah, that post is true.

For a lot of others, not so much.

Also, D3 will be a game I play in bunches once the new wears off. I'll never again have anything be my 'only' game like WoW was for seven years. I'll play my non-WoW MMO, dabble in MoP because of my great Ally guild full of friends, and play some D3 or other games when I need a break from MMOs.

The formula above applies to certain mentalities, yes, but probably to less Lurkers than you might expect, especially the ones who didn't play WoW.

[Yricyn]

I can see the problem you illustrate playing out. Just to get my monk into Hell difficulty I've had to hit up the AH. In fact I was trying to play "no twink" through the game when I decided to list a few items on the AH just for gold to train my blacksmith. In researching prices for gear, I found that weapons with twice as much damage per second than I was using, were available at my level. That was when I decided to buy better weapons.

Even with with decent gear the game is not a face roll and win situation. I think the overall difficulty has been jumped up a couple of notches from Diablo 2. I ran more than one "no twink" character up to Guardian in D2 and right now I can't imagine playing through nightmare in hardcore mode.

With all of that said, I loved Diablo 2 and I never obtained any of the most elite rune words. I would play a character through the end of Hell, farm hell for a while, then make another. I can see myself doing that here. Why? As much as its nice to build a level 60 with all the best gear in the world. The overall game play is astoundingly fun in Diablo 3. The skills, graphics, physics effects all add up to some righteously fun play. I can see myself check the AH for the cheap upgrade here and there. I personally won't invest too much time in farming the AH. If I come to a standstill in game play I will likely reroll and try a new class or new skills.

Rock on.

[kandrathe]

I'm pretty stingy with my *real world* money. I don't go to any of our readily available *real world* casinos either. It probably will be a problem for some players, as is the managing of self control on many other aspects of personal choice. But, I think you are correct in that they are trying to edge into the *real* cash cow of collecting "house" money from incremental transactions. I need to weigh and usually eschew the purchase of the growing gobs of additional content in many online games now(e.g. DDO), for me (and my children). The psychological feeder bar in slot machines is not that much different from those in the modern MMOG.

[Archon_Wing]

I love the auction house for one reason.

How many people that call themselves "legit" players traded regularly in D2? You really couldn't. Trading in d2 battle.net was mostly conducted by the scum of the system that flooded the system with their ill gotten gains. And even beyond that were the scammers and numerous ways to cheat people with the trade window. And the currency was based on a heavily duped item, the SOJ. And it was to be traded for other duped/botted items.

The auction house allows anyone to participate in the item economy without having to dive into the mountains of spam in the trade channel, to not worry about trade window exploits and the other thousand sleigh of hand techniques scammers have learned over the years, and most of all to not deal with the foul and profane words that come out of the l33t idiots' mouths. It uses a currency that can be farmed legitimately and has a legitimate use to be valued as a currency, unlike gold in d2. No longer is the economy under the control of the cheaters. Yes, it's prone to cheating, but now everyone can enjoy the benefits should they use due caution with a far more convenient and less hostile method. Most importantly, if anything goes wrong, one can just complain to Blizzard about it, meaning your trades are far safer. It's just a way better climate to do this with. Nobody's gonna be like "LOL trade me dis newb". There will be exploits, but at any rate, you have a much better chance of buying clean items from this game.

Also, due to rares being the best items, that means you can go out and shop for the ones you want and not just the ub3r l33t and boring runewords/uniques (that were obviously duped in d2)

Dare I say it, it's the most brilliant thing Blizzard has thought of for this franchise IMO. At least for my needs.

[Mavfin]

Dare I say it, it's the most brilliant thing Blizzard has thought of for this franchise IMO. At least for my needs.

It's very nice, especially as you say, compared to the old trading.

But, I take issue with the 'have to use it' assertion that some make. That's a choice each person can make themselves, depending on the assumptions they play under.

[Archon_Wing]

Instead of level grinding, there's item grinding. It's just that it takes a lot longer to get. And level 90+ in Diablo II didn't really present any rewards besides.... well bragging rights. The stats are minimal. It's a really crappy benefit as opposed to time spent.

I think the difference we're feeling from d2 to d3 is that trade is actually viable and thus everyone can acquire better stuff. It was easier to eschew trade in d2 because the game was easier and also concerns about legitimacy. Like I said before, the economy in d2 was tainted with no safeguards and is the equivalent of going into a dark alley to buy drugs, really.

And why should only the people with elite gear hold all the currency to trade the great items around? The economy is now in the hands of everyone, and sadly not even dedicated grinding could compete with the cheaters.

The cheaters won in d2 when it came to ease of occurring items. Remember Uber Diablo, that was fueled by Sojs? Let's not repeat it. I should not feel disgust when an item name is mentioned.

[MongoJerry]

Diablo III is a fun game. The variety of skills, the fast-paced frenetic gameplay, the multiplayer, the joy of advancing your character through Normal, Nightmare, and Hell difficulties. And then you hit level 60, and can delve into the incredibly challenging Inferno difficulty you've heard so much about. The gear you've acquired in the previous difficulties is really just a "starter set;" the game resets with Inferno difficulty, and you have to farm this mode a ton just to make slight advancements. You need to take the mindset going in that you're starting over from scratch; the REAL game begins with Inferno difficulty and the gear you gain there. Ask anyone who has been there a while.

That was pretty clearly stated by the developers. The design is that you need to farm Act IV hell a while to do well in Act I inferno, Act I inferno for a while to do well in Act II inferno, etc. Inferno is the end-game. The game has been released for two weeks, and it sounds like people aren't having much trouble with Act I inferno. It sounds like they're right on target with the projections.

If people could farm up all their gear without using the auction house and beat Act IV inferno easily, we'd all be talking about how stupidly easy the game is and how there isn't any end game content.

Diablo III has now become the Auction House. Don't think this won't happen to addicted players. It won't be about playing the game anymore, it'll be about playing the Auction House. It's the inevitable end-game result of Blizzard's game design.

That's how a lot of players played D2. They sat in trade channel, looked for deals, and rarely played the game. Other people camped the third party real money auction houses and did the same thing. The only differences with D3 are that the auction house is more visible, gold actually has some value as a currency (for now -- maybe not in the future, though, if they don't create more money sinks), and the interface is simpler.

Diablo III is built on gear (after level 60), but it is not an achievement-based gear system. In World of Warcraft, you get gear as a reward for achievement. In Diablo III, you get gear via gold (or real-life money once that's available). You make gold initially by playing the game to farm up items - most items you find will be for selling on the AH, not for using on your character - and eventually you just stop playing the game altogether because you're far more likely to get upgrades from the Auction House. As your gear in Diablo III improves, the odds of actually getting a drop that's an upgrade from playing the game itself go down and down and down. It'll be far more effective to login each game session and camp the Auction House, playing the buy/sell game to ensure you have the liquidity to purchase things you want.

I definitely think this is a valid issue -- that there aren't any item rewards tied directly to achievements. Mind you, they never were for D2, either, so the game is using that tradition. However, D3 should be an improvement over D2, so I agree.

I can think of a couple of ways to mitigate this issue. I think there is a lot of room to add achievement based rewards when it comes to class specific items, for example. I suggested in another thread that perhaps only the best legendary class specific items could be crafted and that those crafts would be account bound, for example.

Another possibility would be to add in the concept of jewels -- and have the best jewels or recipes for jewels be rewards for difficult achievements. And again, have them be account bound.

So, there are some ways that this could be fixed. My belief is that by having some slots be rewarded by the auction house and other slots rewarded by achievements would be the best kind of balance.

You may be sitting here thinking "nah, I won't do that, I'll play the game and earn my rewards without using the Auction House." If you are, I'd venture you haven't been playing Inferno difficulty for long.

I don't have qualms about using the auction house to either sell or buy items any more than I had qualms about trading items in D2 (except for the issue of dupes -- and luckily the items I traded for usually weren't ones that people cared to dupe). However, I don't feel the need to buy the very best top stat item to get that extra 1% damage. I just use the auction house to fill out a slot or two that has fallen substantially behind.

As others have posted, I think that you are keeping your WoW hardcore raiding mentality, where you must scratch and claw to scrape out that extra 1% dps or hps so that you can kill the boss and get to the next challenge. And, if you don't, you are holding back not only yourself but 9-24 other people.

The Diablo series isn't that way, though. It's a semi-solo game where you can party up if you want to. There's noone else to disappoint if you are using second tier items. You are free to create your own goals and achievements as you wish them.

Personally, my end-game will be beating Inferno (including Whimsyshire) on hardcore. I think this goal will take months to achieve, and when I finish, it's going to feel awesome. When I finish it, I'll probably farm a bit more (and yes, probably sell and buy some items off the hardcore gold AH), power up my Wizard a bit more, and retry the encounters a few more times to make sure that I can do them consistently. Then I'll start to think about odd-ball builds that probably will never work in hardcore Inferno but will still be very fun to play as far as I can get them to.

1) "Well, this is just because Inferno difficulty is too hard. Blizzard will nerf it." I don't see this changing anything. The end game, the true way to advance your character past any artificial point, is to play the Auction House. You may feel that there's no reason to do so once you've defeated the hardest difficulty in the game, but many people won't. People want to progress their characters; it's part of why we play RPGs. You're not playing Diablo III for the PLOT, are you? You saw it all in Normal difficulty! Diablo II never had a Inferno difficulty, and was thus much easier than Diablo III in end-game, but people still played for ages to try to get better items. If Diablo II had an Auction House, its end-game would have wound up the same as Diablo III's.

Trading *was* the end-game in Diablo II. You just chose not to play it. And Inferno will be "nerfed" -- not by Blizzard changing the mobs, but by Blizzard gradually releasing better and better gear over time so that people will perpetually have something new that they feel that they have to get. Blizzard has already announced that they will be buffing legendary drops in a future patch.

People play Diablo III for character advancement, and in the end, no matter where that end is, the only realistic way to advance your character will be the Auction House. You may have the patience required to farm for an incredibly long time in Inferno difficulty, but in the end - even if you beat all of Inferno this way - you're still going to need to go to the Auction House if you want to progress further.

The same was true in Diablo II. How many of the very top runes did you see drop for you in your Diablo II career? If your only goal is to get the no-holds barred very top items, then you're just going to have to trade, just like you did in Diablo II. That's your hardcore server first WoW raiding mentality seeping into this game. If you want to play it that way, then go for it. But Blizzard is not forcing you to play it that way. You are choosing to play it that way.

If, on the other hand, you're a strange character like me who once he has beaten a game tries to beat it again using less and less powerful items and skills, you won't have to spend all day on the AH -- just maybe a few minutes a day to get a key item or two that you need.

Now, keep in mind that despite the tone of this post, I'm still playing Diablo III. I'd like to "beat" the game in the sense of clearing Inferno difficulty, and try out the other classes. But I don't want to get sucked into the Auction House end-game, so there's only so-much shelf-life this game has for me. Back to World of Warcrack when MoP's released!

You don't have to get sucked into it, Bolty. Just release your WoW raiding developed need to have the very best rolls of the very best items in every single slot. When you do, I think you'll enjoy the game more and will get a kick out of those who claim that you "need" to play the auction house game.

[Frag]

If you're the type of player who believes that skill should be rewarded with gear, you're going to get frustrated at some point. Where that point is will depend on the player, but you'll get there.

Inferno clearing, hardcore, melee only, non-AH-buying, farming masochist here.


Challenge accepted.

[FireIceTalon]

This is what I have been saying all along, more or less. You are FORCED to use the AH to get through Inferno, both to sell stuff to create the wealth needed and to buy the stuff that improves your char. And most of the improvements cost in the bloody millions - its ridiculous. This game doesnt need any gold sinks, the AH IIIISSSS the gold sink. Of course, no one forces you to play Inferno, but if you want to beat it, and if you also want to play PvP like I do (which will require the absolute best possible gear obtainable to be competitive), then you are forced to play the torture that is Inferno.

[Concillian]

Someone has to be generating the items though. Not everyone is going to be able to sit there and wait for the items to show up on the AH.

Any "professional" farmers will be using the RMAH. If what is listed in the OP happens, then the GAH items will simply dry up, leaving people unable to play the GAH anymore. Ultimately supply and demand will keep a balance of people spending time item hunting and people spending time GAH hunting. Ultimately gold will end up with a valuation approximating the amount of time, on average, it takes to find a really great rare item. Inflation will happen since gold is plentiful, but gold will still be leaving the system.
- a 15% tax on auctioning is a substantial amount
- many of the crafted set items look to be worth crafting
- the really high level gems look to take very significant amounts of gold out of the system as well, and there's no other source for anything comparable.

[FoxBat]

- you're probably going to go look somewhere else. Torchlight II, anyone?

I wish this worked, but IMO after playing both betas, D3's core gameplay is vastly deeper, in terms of offering meaningful combat tactics and tensions, and actual decisions for skill use versus constant spam. TL2 is not D3 minus the stupid things, it barely even measures up to the Diablo 2 it sticks closely to. Maybe some extensive mods can work some magic, but as-is it does not deliver nearly the same experience.

We also know absolutely nothing about the "endgame" there. There's no reason to think the game has much more legs than TL1 which didn't even have high level items. There hasn't even been any talk of a hell-difficulty equivalent, only NG+in elite mode. Even the nostalgic D2 skill tree that forced so many rerolls is being reworked right now and some kind of respec will be offered in the final release.

Don't let this dissuade you from checking out the game, it's only $20, and if you liked TL1, the 2nd one is vastly improved, plus multiplayer. I just warn people not to expect "hey this is basically the same as D3 minus all that AH, real money, online only crap" because the core gameplay is very different, as is the sheer amount of content.

[FireIceTalon]

Someone has to be generating the items though. Not everyone is going to be able to sit there and wait for the items to show up on the AH.

Any "professional" farmers will be using the RMAH. If what is listed in the OP happens, then the GAH items will simply dry up, leaving people unable to play the GAH anymore. Ultimately supply and demand will keep a balance of people spending time item hunting and people spending time GAH hunting. Ultimately gold will end up with a valuation approximating the amount of time, on average, it takes to find a really great rare item. Inflation will happen since gold is plentiful, but gold will still be leaving the system.
- a 15% tax on auctioning is a substantial amount
- many of the crafted set items look to be worth crafting
- the really high level gems look to take very significant amounts of gold out of the system as well, and there's no other source for anything comparable.

Right, but the game has sold almost 7 million thus far - The AH items are coming from a small portion of that number who used exploits, rushed the content, etc - and most likely before all the nerfs and hot fixes took place. So as a result, you have a very small minority who have a monopoly on the game's economy and can charge virtually whatever they want for any Rare or Legendary items. Ah, good ol' Crapitalism showing its face on Diablo now, LOL.

As far as crafting goes, yea the crafting sets may be worth it, but your smithy has to be level 10 for that, and training the blacksmith is waaaaay too expensive when you will need to invest in the AH to really be sure you are going to upgrade your char. Perhaps when you are sitting on a million+ gold, training the blacksmith to 10 will be worth it, but before then, I wouldn't even bother.

Also, the jeweler charges a ridiculous amount for creating higher level gems - you can buy them much cheaper on, yea you guessed it, the AH. I mean 50k to craft 1 Radiant Square jewel is outrageous.

[MongoJerry]

Also, the jeweler charges a ridiculous amount for creating higher level gems - you can buy them much cheaper on, yea you guessed it, the AH. I mean 50k to craft 1 Radiant Square jewel is outrageous.

50k is nothing. If you really are that desperate for gold, just hop down an act or two from where you're playing and pick up gold with ease and sell any blues you find to the vendor. You don't have to do it, but it's one solution. So, you're saying that you haven't even trained your blacksmith to the highest level, yet? No wonder you don't think you can get any good loot without killing yourself buying stuff on the auction house. You know that in-game inflation is just going to make all those items even more expensive over time, right?

RedRadical, simple question: How much health, armor, resistance, and dps does your top character have? Not long ago, you said you had 25k health. Have you improved on that and your other defensive stats?

[Sirian]

Unfortunately, it doesn't take long to realize something: Diablo III's end-game isn't Inferno difficulty.

End game?

Your analysis is keen, but also jaded. I think you've lost something important, somewhere along the way.


Games are simple, by definition. They're purposely kept at a very simple level because complexity doesn't sell. The best games are able to weave together many layers of simplicity to craft a tapestry that, when viewed from a distance, creates a beautiful image.

In simplicity, there is brevity. The execution of game mechanics will always be brief. The closest thing to an exception to this is MMO raid loot mechanics, where time measured in days or even weeks must pass between cycles, but the cycle itself is still simple.

The greatest of games offer simple, repetitive tasks that remain fun over a longer duration. This is true in sport as well as video games. The clash between pitcher and batter, conducted many dozens of times per game of baseball. Hitting a tennis ball back and forth until somebody misses. There is richness and depth in a great game, but only for fans of the game.


End game is a myth. There is no end game. There is only the illusion of end game when brief gaming mechanics are artificially stretched out over weeks and months, for the same gameplay that would otherwise be completed in hours or days.

"End Game" = "Farming" = a hundred other descriptions for doing the same handful of tasks over and over and over and over and (with luck) still managing to enjoy it.

God help me for quoting Occhi, but fun is where you find it.


D3 is fun. As shipped, it is not as much fun (for me) as D1 was, but there might still be some hope. And if not, then I simply won't play it as long.

It would be in Blizzard's interests (and for their pride's sake, which matters more to devs than you might believe) to extend the fun of D3 for as many as they can for as long as they can. And they will try. But they have a lot of fans and there is going to be a ton of noise out there. Most of the feedback they get will steer them wrong -- and they know that, so they will try to pick and choose, and may be prone to tuning out criticism they'd benefit from, comforted instead by their sales figures. But still they will try.


"Progression" is anathema to enduring fun. If you don't already know this, you haven't thought about it. WoW can pull it off because of how hard it is to coordinate groups of 40, 25, or even 10 players, plus the slow cycle of raid loot and lockouts, plus a dev team constantly working on new content, which is 99% like the old content but with a tweak or two and some new artwork.

Progression does not apply to Diablo. Nor does it have any end game. If you play it like hardcore mmo raiding, you'll soon be done with it and moving back to WoW, as you said -- where you'll redo and redo the same raid mechanics over and over ad nauseum and be happy because this raid tier's content has new art to it and you are FORCED to take it slow?


If you find a set of game mechanics that make your soul sing, even when you engage them over and over for thousands of cycles, be happy. If that fun is in Diablo, fine. If not that's OK too.

Diablo 2 and 3 have, for me, lost something ESSENTIAL from Diablo 1 that made the combat itself almost endlessly entertaining. But even great games fade eventually. I got about four years out of Diablo 1, spread over a 9 year time period. That was among the best ever. (Only Master of Orion, Descent and World of Warcraft have done better for me -- and WoW has the advantage of continually developing new art and content for itself. ... Yes I eventually tried WoW after it was given to me as a gift, and I even met my wife there. But my thoughts about WoW belong in some other thread.) Diablo 2 was more like one year. Diablo 3 is too much like D2 to get that much, unless Blizz learns basic math (finally) and fixes what they've done wrong here. But I will discuss that topic in another thread.


If only "Progression" entertains you these days, then your analysis seems spot on and you'll be heading back to WoW any day now. But the so called end game you are returning to in WoW is as much of an artificial construct to keep you on the hook as your depiction of the Diablo AH, so I am wondering where that leaves you, old friend. I am glad I am not in your shoes in that regard. I don't give a rat's ass about Diablo "endgame". I only care about the combat -- which is the essence of the game, after all.


- Sirian

[ViralSpiral]

Diablo 3 is too much like D2 to get that much, unless Blizz learns basic math (finally) and fixes what they've done wrong here. But I will discuss that topic in another thread.

The #1 problem they're having with this is something I'm sure you've figured out, but it's simply inflation. D1 dealt with far smaller numbers than D2 and 3, and the smaller you keep numbers, the less gap there is between haves and have-nots, and the easier it is to balance things. When you start factoring in multipliers, triple digit % increases to things, and such, that's when the numbers add up to insanity.

I guess for Blizzard, bigger numbers are a selling point - or perhaps in a roundabout way, a "story" element of how our characters are progressively stronger than past generations. Now I've had some of D3's story explained to me (hopefully accurately, or this is going to make me look dumb), but apparently the Worldstone held the powers of the nephalim origins of humanity within it, and when shattered, humans started becoming stronger again, more on par with their angelic and demonic parents. If their main reason for going to yet larger numbers than D2 was to "show" this, then maybe in a sort of way, it would be a good move...if they could keep the math relative.

But I don't think they will. Just like D1 went from rarely having sources of damage (Fireball aside) in the four digit range, to D2 making it about equally rare to hit five digits (without massively duped gear), I expect we'll eventually see a 500K or million point hit build somewhere in D3, if perhaps not until an expansion. And then they're going to have to try to balance that against 30 other builds which can't do a fifth as much damage. And that's where they'll screw it all up, just like with D2.

I hope they find a way to make the combat engrossing for you though, because I'm looking forward to your reports of oddball characters and screwy strategies.

[FireIceTalon]

Also, the jeweler charges a ridiculous amount for creating higher level gems - you can buy them much cheaper on, yea you guessed it, the AH. I mean 50k to craft 1 Radiant Square jewel is outrageous.

50k is nothing. If you really are that desperate for gold, just hop down an act or two from where you're playing and pick up gold with ease and sell any blues you find to the vendor. You don't have to do it, but it's one solution. So, you're saying that you haven't even trained your blacksmith to the highest level, yet? No wonder you don't think you can get any good loot without killing yourself buying stuff on the auction house. You know that in-game inflation is just going to make all those items even more expensive over time, right?

RedRadical, simple question: How much health, armor, resistance, and dps does your top character have? Not long ago, you said you had 25k health. Have you improved on that and your other defensive stats?

50K to craft a single jewel is absurd in any circumstance, but especially since they can be bought for cheaper on the AH. Thankfully Blizz has said they are going to lower the cost substantially soon. I havent maxed my blacksmith yet, because between training and crafting multiple times to find an upgrade is much more expensive for what I would get compared to what I can get on the AH. When I'm sitting on near a million gold, I will max him and start salvaging more items.

And yes, I have increased my defenses up some since then. Health is around 37k now, armor 3300 ish, and resists I can't recall atm, but overall damage reduction is up to 54% - still not great but substantially better than where I was at. DPS changes depending on which items I EQ but is generally within the range of 17k-22k, which is plenty for now. I have completed Act 1 as of yestarday, but will likely continue to do Imprisoned Angel quest co-ops to rapidly accumulate a large amount of gold and rares to sell. I will gear my char with Act 3 and 4 level items from the AH before attempting Act 2 - because I anticipate an outrageous increase in the difficulty spike there. I look to have around 50k health, 4k armor, 600+ resists, 75% dmg reduction, and around double the DPS I have now before trying Act 2.

[Chesspiece_face]

50K to craft a single jewel is absurd in any circumstance, but especially since they can be bought for cheaper on the AH. Thankfully Blizz has said they are going to lower the cost substantially soon. I havent maxed my blacksmith yet, because between training and crafting multiple times to find an upgrade is much more expensive for what I would get compared to what I can get on the AH. When I'm sitting on near a million gold, I will max him and start salvaging more items.

50k isn't that much of an investment with the understanding that you will never lose that jewel in softcore. It is a one time investment and in return you gain better stats for all of your characters in perpetuity. Looking at it from that perspective it is an absolute steal.

If you are in Inferno don't bother crafting sub-60 pieces from the Blacksmith. Focus on getting him up to LvL 10 and hopefully finding some drop patterns. Once you have this you can craft the lvl 60 crafted pieces and you will actually be getting items that you can either use or sell on the AH more often. When you are farming vendor all of the items that you get that are sub lvl 59 and salvage the 59-60 items. The biggest bottleneck to being able to craft high level items is not gold or tomes but actually the Inferno dust.