Blizzard's Game Design Update

[MongoJerry]

Wonderful video, Chesspiece. Time to spam link it on every forum, imho.

Side note: It's amazing to me that you're getting by without Teleport. It's what I use to counter wallers, jailer, and vortex mobs -- and also to get out of dodge when needed or to teleport to a health orb. But of course, that would mean sacrificing something like Magic Weapon, which would be 15% of your offense, so such decisions are always tough calls.

[NuurAbSaal]

awesome

Immensely enjoyed that, thanks! Still in mid-Nightmare with my highest character, but looking forward to getting lots more out of the game.

take care
Tarabulus

[smegged]

Great video. It honestly did not look that much harder than what nightmare is for my DH now. It *was* harder, don't get me wrong, but the way you're playing in that video and the way you're prioritising defence is exactly the way I play.

Right now, for me, the biggest killer are the servers. Downtime every Tuesday night. Needing to spam general chat or be disconnected every 5 minutes. These two annoyances are so terribly frustrating for what is essentially a single player game.

Out of interest, are any Barbarians currently successfully progressing through Inferno?

[Bolty]

Out of interest, are any Barbarians currently successfully progressing through Inferno?

There are some. The last I heard, the "best geared Barbarian in the world" was still struggling with clearing Act III solo. Inferno difficulty is for ranged characters at the moment.

I have no idea how Blizzard can balance this. I was in an Inferno Act 1 game with my Barbarian yesterday when another Barbarian came in who was just decked out compared to me. He could stand in monster packs that would have obliterated me in 2 seconds flat (or 10 seconds if I blow all cooldowns, and THEN splat). He could stand IN the flames against the Butcher without taking a lick of sustained damage (just healed it right back). Any casual observer of this would conclude that Barbarians are completely overpowered.

Meanwhile, he just gets totally obliterated by WHITE mobs in Act III.

Ultimately, the game doesn't seem balanceable for melee characters. Since you have to actually engage a mob to kill it, you're either strong enough to take the severe beating they dish out, or you're not. If you ARE strong enough, you look overpowered compared to the ranged classes who have to kite everything and pull off tricks to survive. If you're NOT strong enough, you're a dead-weight useless joke who dies the second you move into range to strike. Meanwhile, the ranged classes are killing champion packs that you can't even touch.

So how do you balance that?

[MongoJerry]

Ultimately, the game doesn't seem balanceable for melee characters. Since you have to actually engage a mob to kill it, you're either strong enough to take the severe beating they dish out, or you're not. If you ARE strong enough, you look overpowered compared to the ranged classes who have to kite everything and pull off tricks to survive. If you're NOT strong enough, you're a dead-weight useless joke who dies the second you move into range to strike. Meanwhile, the ranged classes are killing champion packs that you can't even touch.

I remember in Classic D2 runs how my sorceress would party up with necromancers and amazons running the cathedral while barbarians were stuck outside whitling away at Izzy to level up. I'm not sure what the solution is, but it's not the first time that this problem has come up in a game. Someone must have found a solution along the way that's better than D2's "just make everyone insanely powerful" solution.

Edit: You know, it's possible that the solution could simply be that Inferno is a difficulty where you are expected to party up with people. As much as people try to say that Wizards "just kite" mobs, it's not easy to kite mobs for long stretches, it can be easy to make mistakes along the way, and your dps suffers greatly in the process. It's a whole lot easier to have a good meat shield in front of me so that I can dish out the dps. Both the barb and the ranged classes would benefit from playing in groups.

[ViralSpiral]

Blizzard has historically been pretty terrible with ever balancing melee. The only time they've ever gotten it close to right is WoW, and then only because the melee isn't expected to contribute much damage and is forced to group. They exist basically as golems for the ranged characters to hide behind, a la D1. Blizzard seems wholly unable to make monsters that as scary for ranged characters that don't also atomise anyone in melee range.

Protip: Barbarian is the only class in D2 I don't play. Ever. There's a reason for this.

I'm half-considering a throw + shield Barb but I don't expect it to be worth a damn in Hell. Taunt and Grim Ward are about my only crowd control options (no Howl does not count) which leaves champ packs as a scary proposition. Further, my solution for physical immunity is basically "hope for lucky item drops" or a Cold Merc from A3 (who will spend a good deal of A5 being dead useless, or probably just dead.) I think it can be done, but I don't think it will be pleasant and it will require either some kind of chance to cast amp/decrep, or massive elemental item damage drop. I can't even rely on runewords, with a throwing weapon. Maybe on weapon switch, but I won't have any Mastery to boost AR. The merc alone won't cut it. My Wind Druid taught me at A1, 2, and 5 in Hell are going to be swamped with Physical + Cold immune, and A3 does the same with Phys + Lightning. Fire's not even worth discussing between Inferno and the number of Fire immunes.

(The actual solution probably involves a Holy Freeze merc with a Fire or Lightning based runeword, but those tend to require runes I never find.)

[MongoJerry]

Blizzard has historically been pretty terrible with ever balancing melee. The only time they've ever gotten it close to right is WoW, and then only because the melee isn't expected to contribute much damage and is forced to group.

Rogues, death knights, and dps warriors and paladins do a heck of a lot of dps -- certainly a lot more than my holy/disc priest can dish out. And they solo very well. But WoW's a totally different style of game from D3, so it's not really fair to compare the two games and two systems.

Mortar is a pita for ranged characters that isn't a problem for melee packs, so that's one ability at least.

Barbarians certainly have enough meat on them to tackle one or two champion mobs beating on them. The problem is when there's a whole pack of mobs beating on them. Maybe the melee classes need more crowd control abilities? Perhaps some kind of spammable short duration aoe confuse ability that confuses every mob within 10 yards except the one that you target?

[Tal]

Blizzard has historically been pretty terrible with ever balancing melee. The only time they've ever gotten it close to right is WoW, and then only because the melee isn't expected to contribute much damage and is forced to group. They exist basically as golems for the ranged characters to hide behind, a la D1. Blizzard seems wholly unable to make monsters that as scary for ranged characters that don't also atomise anyone in melee range.

My mind boggles that you think melee in WoW aren't expected to contribute much damage and only exist to provide cover for the ranged. Every aspect of the game calls you liar liar pants on fire.

Protip: Barbarian is the only class in D2 I don't play. Ever. There's a reason for this.

I'm half-considering a throw + shield Barb but I don't expect it to be worth a damn in Hell. Taunt and Grim Ward are about my only crowd control options (no Howl does not count) which leaves champ packs as a scary proposition. Further, my solution for physical immunity is basically "hope for lucky item drops" or a Cold Merc from A3 (who will spend a good deal of A5 being dead useless, or probably just dead.) I think it can be done, but I don't think it will be pleasant and it will require either some kind of chance to cast amp/decrep, or massive elemental item damage drop. I can't even rely on runewords, with a throwing weapon. Maybe on weapon switch, but I won't have any Mastery to boost AR. The merc alone won't cut it. My Wind Druid taught me at A1, 2, and 5 in Hell are going to be swamped with Physical + Cold immune, and A3 does the same with Phys + Lightning. Fire's not even worth discussing between Inferno and the number of Fire immunes.

(The actual solution probably involves a Holy Freeze merc with a Fire or Lightning based runeword, but those tend to require runes I never find.)

I'm curious what this has to do with Blizzard's blog post about Diablo III. I played a barbarian in LoD to 75ish without difficulty - I'm not entirely certain what you're going on about.

Edit: Removed grouchy response.

[ViralSpiral]

Well, no, it doesn't have much to do with Diablo III. I thought that was rather well denoted by the use of the word "historically." Apparently I was wrong in that regard, however.

[Bolty]

For some lighthearted humor, here is my Barbarian in Inferno difficulty:



Okay, jokes aside, I'm still not sure how to balance melee classes because they can either take the beating and look like gods, or they splat in a flash. I've taken my Barbarian in games to help out some friends at lower levels and the majority of responses I get are "wow, I'm rolling a Barbarian." Melee tanks look like God Incarnate when they outgear something, and are the butt of jokes when they don't.

Mongo has a good idea in that there needs to be an ability that allows the melee player to moderately cc/control a huge mob while focusing one target, but that also needs to not be abuseable/spammable to infinity. Ranged mobs should drive melee nuts, as they do - running away and being a giant PITA to nail down because you can't chase them across half the map. Melee mobs should be more handleable, but it all comes down to gear right now. You have the gear, you're fine. You don't, you're a stain on the ground.

[ViralSpiral]

For some lighthearted humor, here is my Barbarian in Inferno difficulty:



Okay, jokes aside, I'm still not sure how to balance melee classes because they can either take the beating and look like gods, or they splat in a flash. I've taken my Barbarian in games to help out some friends at lower levels and the majority of responses I get are "wow, I'm rolling a Barbarian." Melee tanks look like God Incarnate when they outgear something, and are the butt of jokes when they don't.

Mongo has a good idea in that there needs to be an ability that allows the melee player to moderately cc/control a huge mob while focusing one target, but that also needs to not be abuseable/spammable to infinity. Ranged mobs should drive melee nuts, as they do - running away and being a giant PITA to nail down because you can't chase them across half the map. Melee mobs should be more handleable, but it all comes down to gear right now. You have the gear, you're fine. You don't, you're a stain on the ground.

Ah, you found The Secret Poultry Level already? Congrats!

[Ruvanal]

Ah, you found The Secret Poultry Level already? Congrats!

Umm... The Secret Chicken Level belongs in Dungeon Siege, not D3.

[Pantalaimon]

Like Mongo, I find that not having a melee in the party is very detrimental to progress, although I'm not yet to Inferno and play a defence-kitted wizard that is very similar to chesspiece. Our standard play typically involves splitting up into two pairs (4-player) or two solos (2-player) to divide & conquer more manageable bits. Ideally, a few "hard" targets (the boss itself, or two of the champions) head to the melee/other pair while the ranged/ranged pair kites off most of the "chaff" (whites & most of the minions).

This completely breaks down when you don't have a melee, because you don't have anybody that can really take the "hard" stuff and you just end up with four players all spending 95% of their time running around with a lot of OH-MY-GOD moments. You can try to substitute in a dedicated "control" player with a heavy emphasis on snares, stuns and other CC at the expense of damage, but it's a subpar substitute for a melee character in my opinion.

To that end, for group play (as I don't play solo), I think more aggro manipulation abilities that allow melee to pro-actively "split the herd" would be an excellent addition to their toolkit and go a long way towards balance. It's kind of the reverse of WoW/MMO tanking - they want to peel a few targets off into a corner while their teammates kite in circles. If they're able to pare things down to solos/duos they completely wreck its face (pair the tank with a zombie bear WD for maximum hilarity). Then they come help the ranged deal with the rest of the pack, because lord knows we haven't managed to kill anything while we're running laps around the map.

[MongoJerry]

In the Lurker Lounge tradition of trying to suggest solutions to problems rather than just point out the problems, I present my idea for a new Barbarian skill:

Change one of the runes in Ground Stomp (maybe replacing Trembling Stomp?) so that it makes Ground Stomp stun mobs in a larger area (24 yards), for a longer time (5 seconds instead of 4?), but mobs only have a 50% chance to be affected.

This may seem counter-intuitive. After all, it sounds like it's making Ground Stomp less useful. But, if only 50% of the mobs are affected, the barbarian can then strategically try to pull the mobs that are still awake away from the main pack and do his own version of "kiting." What do you think?

[Tal]

In the Lurker Lounge tradition of trying to suggest solutions to problems rather than just point out the problems, I present my idea for a new Barbarian skill:

Change one of the runes in Ground Stomp (maybe replacing Trembling Stomp?) so that it makes Ground Stomp stun mobs in a larger area (24 yards), for a longer time (5 seconds instead of 4?), but mobs only have a 50% chance to be affected.

This may seem counter-intuitive. After all, it sounds like it's making Ground Stomp less useful. But, if only 50% of the mobs are affected, the barbarian can then strategically try to pull the mobs that are still awake away from the main pack and do his own version of "kiting." What do you think?

Barbarians have plenty of stuns. The problem is that the bread and butter skill to get life back relies upon the barbarian getting hit to trigger it.

[Frag]

I have no idea how Blizzard can balance this.

I'll let you know, should I survive the rest of Hell, which I'm not actually expecting to. That being said, I've noted what you've noted; I'm either basically invulnerable, or having to play like a coward to live. Most mobs in A1 and A2 so far can't scratch me, or can lightly damage me. Then there's this Champion Pack that doesn't seem like a threat (Shielded, Life Linked, Jailor) to melee, who is taking off 10-12% of my life a swing, and I'm tanking 3-4 of them + 0-12 little mobs and I'm very confused and very, very happy to just get out of the fight alive. I haven't flat out run from an encounter yet, but I feel like I'm close. All that being said, I can't imagine another play experience yet. It's SO dangerous and SO fun to be the middle of shit that would one shot your companions and literally play chicken (YOU DIE OR I DIE!).

Edit for Tal's post: Looks like mobs in later difficultly have CC duration reduction. Still testing it, but all those stuns aren't doing a lot for me anymore.

[weatherine]

Chesspiece,

I don't think anyone is arguing about Act 1 inferno. Have you tried Act 2 and onwards?

Your video shows a specific group of elites. I play a wizard with pretty similar stats (well I used to, I just sacrificed a bunch of HP for resistance this weekend and it's going better) and I can kill them as well. But what if you hit a pack of elites that you cannot kite, like the ones that teleport to you or grab you or annoying snowflakes in places where you cannot kite, those that spawn at entryways, or groups of 2 or more elite packs. Then what do you do?

No doubt gearing will help, no doubt learning to play better will help. But it is still true that Act 2 and onwards in inferno is not playable by almost anyone. I'll like to see exactly how many have finished all quests in acts 3/4. This forum has die hard Diablo fans, presumably more skilled than average player. Anyone here managed to clear Act 3/4? What about act 2?

The other thing I dislike apart from the stuff already brought up is how viable a WD is. I'm beginning to think to progress in inferno you need a WD with you, one who will charm/sheep/totem. Where is the fun if you're a barbarian? Dying to chains is fun?

[Chesspiece_face]

Chesspiece,

I don't think anyone is arguing about Act 1 inferno. Have you tried Act 2 and onwards?

Your video shows a specific group of elites. I play a wizard with pretty similar stats (well I used to, I just sacrificed a bunch of HP for resistance this weekend and it's going better) and I can kill them as well. But what if you hit a pack of elites that you cannot kite, like the ones that teleport to you or grab you or annoying snowflakes in places where you cannot kite, those that spawn at entryways, or groups of 2 or more elite packs. Then what do you do?

No doubt gearing will help, no doubt learning to play better will help. But it is still true that Act 2 and onwards in inferno is not playable by almost anyone. I'll like to see exactly how many have finished all quests in acts 3/4. This forum has die hard Diablo fans, presumably more skilled than average player. Anyone here managed to clear Act 3/4? What about act 2?

The other thing I dislike apart from the stuff already brought up is how viable a WD is. I'm beginning to think to progress in inferno you need a WD with you, one who will charm/sheep/totem. Where is the fun if you're a barbarian? Dying to chains is fun?

Actually that's exactly what people were arguing. More importantly people were arguing about Hell as well. And that's what happens; people complain incessantly about the difficulty and then as more and more people get geared or people show examples of why they are wrong the complainers move the goal posts. First it's Hell mode is too hard. Then it moves to Inferno. Then the same complainers go to "Well Inferno doesn't really start until Act 2". As far as I can tell 3 weeks from now it will just be pushed back to Act 3.

I've seen so many people complaining how Inferno is broken and that it is impossible to play this game without using the AH and then they turn around and list their stats as 25k hp, 3k armor (With Energy armor for Wizards), and 35k damage. And these are the people that are complaining about getting one shot. No, the problem is that they are not itemizing well. The general mentality of the D3 community seems to be that defensive stats are worthless because no matter what you do you are going to get 1 shot anyway and this is patently false. This is extremely prominent in the Wizard community with the abuse of Force Armor and it's subsequent nerf.

As for me I was originally planning on waiting in Act 1 and upgrading some pieces that I felt were lacking but now that so many people have turned to the "Inferno doesn't really begin until act 2" argument I will push on into Act 2 and see just how far off I am and if it is even necessary for me to gear up. As it is the only champ packs that give me a challenge in Act 1 are the most ridiculous (ala Immune Minions/Fast/Vampiric/Mortar). I don't have any problems with stair traps because I will just lead them back to the stairs blow my Diamond Skin, burn down all my AP on them, then jump up the stairs until my CDs are back up. Rinse and repeat. I figure if they are gonna cheese me with stair traps I will cheese them right back.