Discussion: game balance...

[Quark]

If you go pure defensive you're going to get wrecked by enrage timers. Dragoon and I hit our first in Act 3 Hell last night.

[Jester]

I feel there is something to be learned from history, here.

This doesn't sound like very strong reasoning. You've cherry picked a couple of strong classes, and then somewhat randomly decided that it was defense that made them good, and then are assuming that this pattern was picked up and applied by the D3 devs?

Why? If anything, it sounds like the opposite: D2 was all about glass cannons, and D3 is not.

-Jester

[ViralSpiral]

Well it's not pure defence - like I said, both builds had good DPS. So you've got to get some DPS in there, but it's the builds that covered all their defence bases that ended up dominating in the long run. Yes, D2 had periods when WW Barbs, Multizons, FW/Orb Sorcies, and CE Necros all ruled the world. But those were all patched out until the Hammerdin came to the fore. And Blizzard must approve of that build to some extent, because it's the one that didn't get nerfed entirely out of existence. It's also the most party-friendly of all the dominant builds too, which may have contributed to its being allowed to continue existing.

It makes sense, if you think about it - it's you against thousands. Of course defence is going to be necessary. You're outmatched in every way. Look at which skills got nerfed - the ones that gave too much defence potential. Blizzard's always had it out for builds that had TOO low of an offence - look at the monster regen rates in Hell in D2, or the Council of Travincal. I'm just saying I bet the secret is going like 35-40% offence and 60-65% defence, rather than the 90-100/0-10% ratios that most of the people on the official site forums doing their bitching are probably using.

I feel there is something to be learned from history, here.

This doesn't sound like very strong reasoning. You've cherry picked a couple of strong classes, and then somewhat randomly decided that it was defense that made them good, and then are assuming that this pattern was picked up and applied by the D3 devs?

Why? If anything, it sounds like the opposite: D2 was all about glass cannons, and D3 is not.

-Jester

D2 spent a very long time being about glass cannons, but like I said, they eventually all got nerfed and patched out of existence. The Hammerdin was the dominant build that survived getting screwed out. And out of all those builds, the WW Barb was the only one that didn't have solid defence as a strong option, with the exception of whatever benefit leech was worth (that was back when all mobs were 100% leechable, though.) The sorcies had Teleport, the Zons had their Valks and Slow Missile (even if most people rarely bothered to use it), the Necros had their hordes or golems, as needed. And in D1, all the good skills for defence were magic oriented, which made the Mage the best by default, with the fastest cast rates and easiest spell learning. The only defence stat which didn't matter in D2 was your DR because so many monsters ignored it or had AR so high it made little to no difference to increase it. Blocking, resists, and mobility were key factors though. Consider also the famous variants - the Irene clone abused Town Portal to defencive ends. Ember had little offence, but sturdy Vitality, high resists, and good mobility even without Teleport. Gunter has mass stun, and Grizabella mass confuse. Maldar didn't even arse himself to kill things. Obviously none of the variants are power builds, but it was their defence that allowed them to make it through, not their offence. Ponder that, if you will.

[Roland]

I'm fine if they back off some of the spike damage, but, otherwise, let's not be nerfing Inferno just because people unwilling to gear properly can't do it.

While I agree wholeheartedly with this statement, I could do without Invulnerable Minions. That's just plain stupid and lazy. Shielding is bad enough, but I can live with it. Kite long enough, and sooner or later you'll take one down (though probably you'll damage everyone slowly over time, until you reach the breaking point of killing them rapidly because their shields are down and they have no health left). Invulnerable Minions, though? Pure cheese. Bad enough everything hits like a truck in Inferno, but now you have to have a full set of body-blockers just to ruin my shots? I'm a ranged class. How am I supposed to hit my target when his buddies, with their impenetrable shields, keep getting in the way? Yes, I've beaten Invulnerable Minions, on Inferno, but you tack something like Fast, or Horde, or Mortar on there and it just becomes virtually unbeatable (although Mortar is livable with enough room to kite, you still need to be able to turn and fire that ONE shot before moving again; Invulnerable Minions negates about 90% of those shots, meaning you'll almost certainly die before you kill the boss).

I'm enjoying my time in Inferno. I beat the Butcher solo, and though it was a close battle I felt my skills trumped his damage, despite a few close calls. I haven't yet ventured into Act II, but I'm fairly certain I need to get my defenses a bit higher (3k armor is almost as good as I'm going to get for now, but my resistances need some work by about double). Even so, there are some things that are just plain broken. I can live with Waller, Jailer, and Vortex despite how disabling they all are to a ranged class (especially one who refuses to cheese his way out of it via Smoke Screen or Vault). However, Invulnerable Minions is just pure BS. It doesn't take skill to overcome, it takes luck - luck that the pathfinding of the boss leaves him in range of your shots while the minions stay behind. Even dropping Caltrops + my Sentry doesn't work because the minions get in the way of the Sentry shots, and I can't kite tight enough circles to keep them in Caltrops. If they removed that one mechanic (and really, it shouldn't even appear in Hell at all) and toned down the huge spikes a bit I'd be happy. I could live with that smack-you-in-the-face difficulty curve of Hell to Inferno. That, however, just has no place in this game. It's a lazy mechanic designed to add artificial challenge, and instead it adds nothing but pure tedium and cheese - much like Triple Immunes did in D2 (which is explicitly why the devs avoided such things with D3).

Truly though, I agree with both points: people need to gear more defensively, period. However, it really is difficult for anyone who's not in Inferno to understand what it's like. You simply cannot imagine the impact of huge health + damage increases on top of a fourth boss modifier. I know I wasn't prepared for the change, and I still run across boss packs that are simply unkillable for me (just ask Monty). I think that's by design, though, and I'm OK with that to a point. Some things should never have made it off the drawing board, however.

Anyway, to answer RedRadical directly unless you're already over-geared you don't need to spend millions. 60k - 300k per item is about where I'm at now, and I can almost full-clear Act I solo without much trouble (almost meaning aside from those unkillable packs). High armor value items are a dime a dozen on the AH. It's just a matter of whether they have the stats you want. I have a decent (though not great) bow @ ~625 base DPS (18k on screen), about 1200 Dexterity (~32% Dodge), 900 Vitality (34k life), 3000 armor (50% reduction), and between 50 and 130 resistances (between... I don't know, 10 and 30%? something like that?) I do not use Vault, Smoke Screen, nor Evasive Fire so I have to rely solely on my kiting ability, which means if I get Jailed, Walled, or Vortexed I'm probably dead. I have yet to hit a single Berserker timer in all my time in Inferno, and the unkillable boss packs I either avoid or reroll - whichever's easier and still allows me to progress. I still manage to make a profit (in gold) during my time in Inferno, although it's far less than what I make in equal time doing Nightmare Act III / IV clears. Just this weekend I found an awesome upgrade for my amulet (+dex, +IAS magic to a +dex, +IAS, +armor rare with higher stats across the board), so it is possible to get good gear in Act I Inferno - if you're willing to farm. Elsewise, farm Hell Act III and IV for gear, or Nightmare Act III and IV for gold (between Nephalem Valor and selling blues / yellows, I make over 100k an hour). Pick and choose your purchases on the AH carefully, and look for those deals - they do exist, although you have to be quick and patient to nab them.

[FireIceTalon]

Elric knows what he's on about, though. He's a pretty skilled player, he's one of the people I played with back in D2. (I was posting as DStheHermit back then. Forgot my password and even which e-mail I tied to that account, though.) If he says "learn to play", then you probably do. I don't know if you saw Chesspiece's "Inferno for Dummies" video, but you've got less health than his Wizard, who is farming Act I. Yet I've seen you complain about later acts. If Chesspiece has better stats than you, but is still farming Act I because he lives in fear of Act II, and your stats are lower...what do you suppose is the proper course of action? He doesn't even use Teleport, even when fighting Waller/Vortexing mobs. I haven't seen any DH skills in action, but the largest advantage I saw from Chess was a shadow-hydra, and he wasn't even cheesing it around corners or anything.

Also, does invulnerable mean strictly invulnerable, or are there still ways (even if obscure ways) to defeat them?

Past games are irrelevant in this case. I was one of the best players on D1 (and I could have many people vouch for me, as well as physical proof with videos), but like Elric's case with D2, it means little here. We are talking about D3, not D1 or D2. And the fact of the matter is, I've unlocked Inferno, he has not - not to mention he has never seen me play, so no, he isn't really in any place to be judging my skill. Truth be told, anyone who has even unlocked Inferno and is attempting it deserves some credit, as hell difficulty itself in this game is an ass kicker.

If the pattern from previous difficulties remains the same, Act 2 will be unreasonably difficult - although this has to do more with the actual monster mechanics than it does difficulty - just that in Inferno the difficulty of those mechanics will be spiked. Alot of people who are in Act 3 or 4 have even said this. Many of them had to get gear that would drop in Act 4 from the AH just to get through Act 2. This makes sense to me because Act 2 was the hardest for me in all the previous difficulties as well.

The only way to kill Invulnerable Minions is to kill the so-called Champion individual of a pack, since it is the only one that can take damage. This is cheap IMO.

[ViralSpiral]

Past games of the same series are never irrelevant. I guarantee you players of D1 and 2 (especially hardcore, in the latter) are doing better than people who are playing the series for the first time are, barring no doubt a few small exceptional cases. While Elric may not be as far as you, he also hasn't been constantly complaining about dying every few seconds, either. I'll bet you any amount of money he won't be complaining about it when he hits Inferno, either - because he's going to take his time, play carefully, assess risks, and rely on past experience from previous difficulties and D1/2 when forming tactics.

I'm sure Inferno is very difficult, but I also am sure it's not unmanageable because people are managing it. It can't be as bad as you make it out to be, because you make it out to be an unplayable mess, when people are clearly making it through. The majority of your posts refer to "most", "many" or a "majority" of players having the same troubles as you or agreeing with your position. I've not seen any of these invisible masses of players to which you refer - I know they're certainly not here on the lounge, where almost no complaining is going on. Granted, I'm sure the majority of the best D2 players - where I define "best" as "dies the least", not "has the mules full of the most duped gear" or "can hit L99 in 34 seconds" - are largely deposited between here and the Amazon Basin, so there's probably far below the average levels of whinging here.

TL;DR - I'm pretty sure the problem is somewhere on your end, since almost no one else here seems to have quite the same problems you do. Consider this may at least -possibly- be the case, and I think things will get better for you.

[FireIceTalon]

I'm fine if they back off some of the spike damage, but, otherwise, let's not be nerfing Inferno just because people unwilling to gear properly can't do it.

While I agree wholeheartedly with this statement, I could do without Invulnerable Minions. That's just plain stupid and lazy. Shielding is bad enough, but I can live with it. Kite long enough, and sooner or later you'll take one down (though probably you'll damage everyone slowly over time, until you reach the breaking point of killing them rapidly because their shields are down and they have no health left). Invulnerable Minions, though? Pure cheese. Bad enough everything hits like a truck in Inferno, but now you have to have a full set of body-blockers just to ruin my shots? I'm a ranged class. How am I supposed to hit my target when his buddies, with their impenetrable shields, keep getting in the way? Yes, I've beaten Invulnerable Minions, on Inferno, but you tack something like Fast, or Horde, or Mortar on there and it just becomes virtually unbeatable (although Mortar is livable with enough room to kite, you still need to be able to turn and fire that ONE shot before moving again; Invulnerable Minions negates about 90% of those shots, meaning you'll almost certainly die before you kill the boss).

I'm enjoying my time in Inferno. I beat the Butcher solo, and though it was a close battle I felt my skills trumped his damage, despite a few close calls. I haven't yet ventured into Act II, but I'm fairly certain I need to get my defenses a bit higher (3k armor is almost as good as I'm going to get for now, but my resistances need some work by about double). Even so, there are some things that are just plain broken. I can live with Waller, Jailer, and Vortex despite how disabling they all are to a ranged class (especially one who refuses to cheese his way out of it via Smoke Screen or Vault). However, Invulnerable Minions is just pure BS. It doesn't take skill to overcome, it takes luck - luck that the pathfinding of the boss leaves him in range of your shots while the minions stay behind. Even dropping Caltrops + my Sentry doesn't work because the minions get in the way of the Sentry shots, and I can't kite tight enough circles to keep them in Caltrops. If they removed that one mechanic (and really, it shouldn't even appear in Hell at all) and toned down the huge spikes a bit I'd be happy. I could live with that smack-you-in-the-face difficulty curve of Hell to Inferno. That, however, just has no place in this game. It's a lazy mechanic designed to add artificial challenge, and instead it adds nothing but pure tedium and cheese - much like Triple Immunes did in D2 (which is explicitly why the devs avoided such things with D3).

Truly though, I agree with both points: people need to gear more defensively, period. However, it really is difficult for anyone who's not in Inferno to understand what it's like. You simply cannot imagine the impact of huge health + damage increases on top of a fourth boss modifier. I know I wasn't prepared for the change, and I still run across boss packs that are simply unkillable for me (just ask Monty). I think that's by design, though, and I'm OK with that to a point. Some things should never have made it off the drawing board, however.

Anyway, to answer RedRadical directly unless you're already over-geared you don't need to spend millions. 60k - 300k per item is about where I'm at now, and I can almost full-clear Act I solo without much trouble (almost meaning aside from those unkillable packs). High armor value items are a dime a dozen on the AH. It's just a matter of whether they have the stats you want. I have a decent (though not great) bow @ ~625 base DPS (18k on screen), about 1200 Dexterity (~32% Dodge), 900 Vitality (34k life), 3000 armor (50% reduction), and between 50 and 130 resistances (between... I don't know, 10 and 30%? something like that?) I do not use Vault, Smoke Screen, nor Evasive Fire so I have to rely solely on my kiting ability, which means if I get Jailed, Walled, or Vortexed I'm probably dead. I have yet to hit a single Berserker timer in all my time in Inferno, and the unkillable boss packs I either avoid or reroll - whichever's easier and still allows me to progress. I still manage to make a profit (in gold) during my time in Inferno, although it's far less than what I make in equal time doing Nightmare Act III / IV clears. Just this weekend I found an awesome upgrade for my amulet (+dex, +IAS magic to a +dex, +IAS, +armor rare with higher stats across the board), so it is possible to get good gear in Act I Inferno - if you're willing to farm. Elsewise, farm Hell Act III and IV for gear, or Nightmare Act III and IV for gold (between Nephalem Valor and selling blues / yellows, I make over 100k an hour). Pick and choose your purchases on the AH carefully, and look for those deals - they do exist, although you have to be quick and patient to nab them.

Pretty insane that you dont use SS or Vault. I can't imagine not using them in Inferno difficulty - it is crazy enough WITH them, heh. My armor is around 2600 ish at the moment, and admittedly I dont really focus on trying to improve it so much since it is really out of the realm of possibility to get it to a number that would really mean anything. I would really like to get my resists up though. In Act 1 it isnt as important but come Act 2 I will need a huge improvement in that area. I never see resist items drop though (at least not to all resistances), and they tend to be super expensive in the AH. It just seems like as DH's, we are going to have to stay in Act 1 for a really extended period of time to get the numbers within a range to even attempt Act 2. Sigh. There was item grinding in D1 and D2 also, but it just seems alot more tiring and energy consuming here because of the difficulty spike. Even doing one quest, I usually feel like I need a break afterward. Maybe I'm just getting old, IDK. I certainly don't have the energy to power game or have as fast of reflexes like I did in my 20's, although I am still relatively young (34).

[Chesspiece_face]

My armor is around 2500 ish at the moment, and admittedly I dont really focus on trying to improve it so much since it is really out of the realm of possibility to get it to a number that would really mean anything.

False. Absolutely False. Every point of additional Damage Reduction offers you more value than the point before it. 2500 armor is abysmal and I seriously doubt you are breaking much past 40% reduction with that number. If you are sitting at 40% reduction, have 33k health and are getting hit by Inferno mobs you are probably taking upwards of 24000 per hit. By raising your armor alone to 4000-5000 you could reduce that number to sub 10k (this is not even taking into account the Resistence reductions) and if you were to raise your Health up to 40k plus suddenly you are in a position to take on anything in Inferno Act 1 easily (Barring the ridiculous Invulnerable Minion etc. packs). Damage for Act 1 Inferno is less important than the ability to simply take a hit. If you have ~14k damage you are fine for all of Act 1.

[FireIceTalon]

But the question is, how do you get ALL of these things up to a reasonable level without any one of them suffering? I just checked, indeed my damage reduction is at 46% at the moment. But it seems like if I raise my armor, then either my resists or health will take a hit. So is the only way really to farm and/or buy AH gear that has vitality, a high armor tier, with resists? Sounds like the only way to me, but this is bloody expensive, and will be a pain the ass just to farm the gold to be able to buy such an item. What is a reasonable Dmg reduction rate to have in Act 1?

[Mavfin]

2500 armor is abysmal and I seriously doubt you are breaking much past 40% reduction with that number. If you are sitting at 40% reduction, have 33k health and are getting hit by Inferno mobs you are probably taking upwards of 24000 per hit.

I'm not sure how he's only 2500 armor in Inferno Act I, when I'm at 2K armor in NM Act IV. Seems pretty strange to me.

[FireIceTalon]

It seems like all DH's have a very low armor rate from what I can tell, and I think this is largely due to Armor being influenced from strength rather than dex (the DH's primary stat). I haven't seen too many breaking the 3000 mark, although in my case the chest armor I use has only 360 armor. But getting a DH to 4000-5000 armor just seems unrealistic to me (I suppose its possible with better items AND the use of a shield). If there is a way to do, I am all ears (OR eyes, rather).

[Chesspiece_face]

It seems like all DH's have a very low armor rate from what I can tell, and I think this is largely due to Armor being influenced from strength rather than dex (the DH's primary stat). I haven't seen too many breaking the 3000 mark, although in my case the chest armor I use has only 360 armor. But getting a DH to 4000-5000 armor just seems unrealistic to me (I suppose its possible with better items AND the use of a shield). If there is a way to do, I am all ears (OR eyes, rather).

Definitely use a shield. From what I've seen the damage possibilities for a 1hand crossbow are just as good as 2handers for a DH. Get yourself a reasonable 1hand crossbow (500ish dps minimum I would guess) and then throw on an appropriate shield. You will gain upwards of 1k armor just from the shield.

If you are interested in upgrades and aren't averse to trading/taking hand-outs I have:

Rare Shield: 829 Armor, 145 Dex, 73 Vit, 20 Poison Resist, Melee attackers take 157, and +5% crit chance

-and_

Rare Boots: 446 Armor, 69 Dex, 78 Vit, 16 Res All

They are on the AH now but if they don't get bid on and you want them PM me your Battletag and I will hold them.

[kandrathe]

It seems like all DH's have a very low armor rate from what I can tell, and I think this is largely due to Armor being influenced from strength rather than dex (the DH's primary stat). I haven't seen too many breaking the 3000 mark, although in my case the chest armor I use has only 360 armor. But getting a DH to 4000-5000 armor just seems unrealistic to me (I suppose its possible with better items AND the use of a shield). If there is a way to do, I am all ears (OR eyes, rather).

You could post some .jpg of your full gear and stats, then we could pick apart your issues more thoroughly. It seems to me like you need to go back to Hell for awhile.

[FireIceTalon]

Ok, there is a piece of chest armor on the AH that has caught my eye, cost is 225K.....the stats are as follows

Base armor is 601, with the following stats:

+83 intelligence
+269 armor
+66 vitality
+10 max discipline
+58 resist all elments
increase hatred regeneration by .98 per second

armor im using has 361 base armor, with these stats

+70 dexterity
+84 intelligence
+69 vitality
melee attackers take 839 dmg per hit

Looks to be worth it, but 225K would take most of my gold. Thats an increase of 510 armor, my health stays about the same, and resists go up, plus i get resource bonuses. I would lose dmg but I have plenty of DPS already anyway. I guess the question is, are these improvements worth it to spend almost all my gold on one piece of gear?

And using shield on DH though huh? Sigh. That just seems SO WRONG, lol.

[Concillian]

58 resist all is approximately equivalent to adding ~18% more vitality and ~+230 armor is adding another ~8-9%. Together these would be the equivalent of adding about 27-30% health. Looks like the other stats are in the same ballpark, though obviously you'd lose some DEX / dodge... but dodge doesn't help with damage spikes in the same way that resist and armor do.

Your call on whether that's worth it.

[kandrathe]

Looks to be worth it, but 225K would take most of my gold.

Yes. You've almost doubled your armor (for that piece), and added a bunch or additional damage reduction. Mostly you sacrificed the damage per hit (when they hit you), which would only ever be a bonus on armor that already meets your other needs. And... since that is when melee attackers hit you for 20K, they get a paltry slap on the wrist in return. You don't want to get hit. I think as a DH you want armor (5K), dex, resists, vitality, and more dex for dodge/crits/damage.

225K seems cheap for end game gear. I think you might also try to farm and sell more rares for non-DH's in Hell difficulty. Who knows, you might also find something useful.

[Chesspiece_face]

Looks to be worth it, but 225K would take most of my gold. Thats an increase of 510 armor, my health stays about the same, and resists go up, plus i get resource bonuses. I would lose dmg but I have plenty of DPS already anyway. I guess the question is, are these improvements worth it to spend almost all my gold on one piece of gear?

And using shield on DH though huh? Sigh. That just seems SO WRONG, lol.

If you don't need the DPS then, by all means, take a crack at it. That is a huge bump in armor. I will warn, however, that the DPS stat can be misleading as it is easily manipulated by Attack Speed. It is my experience with the Wizard that when making choices about what damage to give up for defense you want to account for Attack Speed adjustments.

As for the shield, there is no way I would go into Inferno with any character without one I don't think. You can stack so much freaking defense on 1 item slot that barring the absolute best damage based off-hands it's not worth it (and even then it's questionable if you compare the best Shields to the best Damage Off-Hand).

[FireIceTalon]

Damn, someone snatched it up while I was contemplating, lol. Just my luck. Well, there is room for vast improvement in every slot - the hunt continues! But the appearance of such items for a affordable price is somewhat reassuring in the vast pools of items going for 5,10, and 20 million gold. I think my belt needs the biggest upgrade atm anyway.

[Tuftears]

Remember that you can set a max buyout when searching the AH. That will help save you from sticker shock from all the idiots who think everyone but them has a ton of gold.

Edit to add: invulnerable minions frost my wheaties too. They need some kind of nerf, otherwise if you have a pack of Invulnerable Hulking Phase Beasts (act 3 Hell) then any other boss mods they might have are just gravy... Gravy made of squished players.

[FireIceTalon]

Another thing that bothers me is that alot of these mobs gain all their life back if you don't succeed in killing them. So after you die, you have to pretty much start all over again when you go to face them. If I died to a mob, any dmg I did to them should stay so I dont have to start all over again when I make another attempt, that is only fair. This makes even some of the "easier" elites almost impossible to beat.