Minion-based soloing builds are useless in Hell difficulty

[DeeBye]

I tried liking Zombie Dogs. I really did. I used them through Normal and Nightmare, and even outfitted myself with Jungle Fortitude and Zombie Handler for an extra Dog and 20% more Dog defense. I also had a Templar and Gargantuan at my side, helping to pick up the slack when the dogs couldn't keep up.

There were some rough patches where the dogs were less than useful, but I struggled forward and eventually defeated Diablo in Nightmare. My build was more or less this. I mostly lobbed Firebombs and blew Poison Darts at stuff while my vast army of dudes kept stuff off of me. It worked, sorta.

Enter Hell difficulty. My dogs die in an encounter with more than 3 normal mobs. In a champ/boss pack, they just explode instantly. I cannot even envision a gearing/skill strategy which might make a 4 Zombie Dog soloing build at all useful in anything above NM difficulty.

[Arethor]

It's kind of disappointing how quickly the dogs scale out of being useful. The only way I found them to be useful in the latter part of Nightmare and start of hell is if you run with Sacrifice too and use them as a nuke. But then you're giving up 2 ability slots. It's a decent amount of nuking power with 4 dogs, but the CD on Dogs is too high to make it viable, and it's really easy for a few dogs to get killed off almost instantaneously before you can activate Sacrifice. They simply don't have enough HP even with Zombie Handler and Jungle Fortitude to be effective.

I still find the Gargantuan is useful thanks to his larger HP pool, but even he doesn't survive for very long against champs/elites. I went up against a few Plagued/Vampiric/X packs last night and the only purpose he served was to refill their health. I ended up having to just kite/kill them solo.

[swirly]

Have people tried Rabid Dogs with Bad Medicine? I find the 20% damage reduction does quite a bit. I'm only in nightmare, but was in a 4 player game last night that reached act 4 and my dogs were still quite sturdy. I'm hoping to switch from them to leeching beasts soon to see how they work, but so far the poison ones have been fine. They do die to AOE so certain areas/packs are bad for them, but other areas they will go through without dying hardly at all.

[Magicbag]

I'm in the same boat. I have to give props to Swirly for trying to find ways to make them useful, but at this point we're investing at least 2 bar skills and 2-3 passives just to make them not terrible. I like the challenge, but hey there are just other things that are giving me more bang for the buck. I used the "leave potions behind" ability power as at least I got something from them and they'd serve until they couldn't anymore (as opposed to sacrifice).

[Arethor]

Have people tried Rabid Dogs with Bad Medicine? I find the 20% damage reduction does quite a bit. I'm only in nightmare, but was in a 4 player game last night that reached act 4 and my dogs were still quite sturdy.

From my experiences my best guess is that they were doing ok because you were playing 4 player. I soloed most of Nightmare and all of Hell so far (just starting Act 2 Hell). Even with Rabid Dogs, Bad Medicine, Zombie Handler, and Jungle Fortitude they would die I would lose at least 2 nearly immediately. It might also be that I don't have the best items and their stats somehow scale off your gear (not sure if true), but they just didn't seem worth the investment and effort to me.

[swirly]

Have people tried Rabid Dogs with Bad Medicine? I find the 20% damage reduction does quite a bit. I'm only in nightmare, but was in a 4 player game last night that reached act 4 and my dogs were still quite sturdy.

From my experiences my best guess is that they were doing ok because you were playing 4 player. I soloed most of Nightmare and all of Hell so far (just starting Act 2 Hell). Even with Rabid Dogs, Bad Medicine, Zombie Handler, and Jungle Fortitude they would die I would lose at least 2 nearly immediately. It might also be that I don't have the best items and their stats somehow scale off your gear (not sure if true), but they just didn't seem worth the investment and effort to me.

I can't speak for Hell cause I'm not there yet. I just tried soloing in Act 4 Nightmare. Started at the beginning of it and went up until the point where you can destroy corrupted growths. (I don't have much time right now). Up until the boss you fight there (Rakanoth?) I only lost 2 dogs. Not two packs, just two dogs. That was on trash even. The one champion pack I saw (mortar illusionist) didn't kill any of my pets. The boss himself slowly worked through them to where I had to resummon with him at about 25% life yet and then he killed one more dog before I finished the fight.

This was with jungle fortitude, zombie handler, bad medicine, rabid dogs, and big stinker. So there must either be a level difference from what I am (51 I think) and what you were at the time or a gear difference. I'm on hardcore too for what that may or may not matter.

[Arethor]

Either I'm doing something wrong, gear does play a factor somehow, or dogs really aren't feasible in Hell. This is the build I was testing with. My testing was done in the early stages of Act 2 when you have to disrupt the 2 cultist camps. I had just finished one last night so I was starting in one of the basements and had to make my way to the other.

Things started off on a very very bad foot. Just outside of the cave were 2 champ packs (blues). One was Reflect/Vampiric/Waller Lucari Huntresses and the other were Molten/Illusionist/Nightmare Fallen. By themselves they might not have been too terrible, but together it was a bit painful. Dogs weren't dying immediately but they were getting picked off at a decent rate. Understandable given the circumstances. Finally cleaned that up, got 4 new dogs and made my way across the desert following footprints. Between the 2 caves I had to respawn a new pack of dogs ~3 times. In a normal fight with some Sand Wasp and Lucari Hunterss I lost an entire pack. In the Cultist room I lost another entire pack before all the cultists were down.

I'm going to try a build similar to your last posted one in the other thread and see if I have better luck with them moving forward.

[Arethor]

Road to Khasim Outpost -

• Teleport/Health Link/Mortar Fallen Champions- 1 dog pack
  
• Fast/Reflect/Mortar Fallen Overseer Champions - 3 dog packs
  
• Fallen pack, 1 Fallen overseer, 4 Sand wasp - 1 dog pack
  
• 1 Sand Wasp attack (full burst) - 1 dog
  
• 1 Sand Wasp pack - 2 dogs
  
• Khasim Basement (6 or so Copperfang Lurkers) - 1 dog pack

They seem to work alright until you hit any sort of champ pack. On Hell it's too easy to roll a pack with abilities that will just decimate them. The problem in my eyes is that champ packs etc. is exactly when you'd need them the most. I can roll normal hell monsters fairly easily regardless of spec. The champ/elites are 99% of my deaths in hell so far.

[DeeBye]

Either I'm doing something wrong, gear does play a factor somehow, or dogs really aren't feasible in Hell. This is the build I was testing with. My testing was done in the early stages of Act 2 when you have to disrupt the 2 cultist camps.

Tonight I tried a similar build, but using Rain of Toads for my main attack. I think swapping to Bad Medicine made all the difference, as well as using the Rain of Toads AoE poison spam. I also ditched Soul Harvest in favour of Grasp of the Dead + Desperate Grasp for a 6s AoE snare, which is a huge help. Poison Dart + Spined Dart is obviously for mana regen, since constant Rain of Toad spam drains mana very fast.

I had absolutely zero difficulty with the Skeleton King on Hell Difficulty. He took out my Dogs a few times, but as long as I kept snares on his adds, and poisons on everything I was able to kill him very easily. I think I had to re-summon the dogs 3 times, and the stinky Garg once. I never went below 50% health, even when he appeared beside me and hit me in the face more than a few times.

Obviously the Skeleton King isn't a great measuring stick for Hell Difficulty, but I also used the build for multiple champ/boss packs leading up to him. The worst was an Illusionist/Shielding/Mortar pack that killed me once, but I eventually got it down.

[swirly]

One thing to note is that some Acts are worse than others. I've noticed that there is a lot of Act 2 that has AOE type damage going out which just destroys the dogs. Meanwhile Act 3 seems to have less of that such that the dogs survive just fine. That has been my experience so far anyway in Normal/Nightmare. So I'm not really surprised when you say the dogs die in Act 2 Hell.

[swirly]

Just started another gaming session and tried some of Act 4 Nightmare again. This time I ran into a plagued something champion pack and had to re-summon once. Went down a hall killing trash just fine then hit an illusionist mortar group that I had to run from. It was really big demons with wings and they did eat my pets. Thought I should post to say that one play session earlier may not have been representative. Though it could also be that some combinations and mobs types eat them and some don't. I'm still pondering the build and such, but wanted to post and say I do see more of the weak side now as well.

[Arethor]

yeah, the properties of the packs play a huge part in it. The problem is in Hell champions are rolling 1 extra trait giving a higher chance of getting something that will shred them. I'm not trying to say the build won't work or that people shouldn't try it. I've just made the personal decision after testing that it's not worth the ability slots or effort for me to make it work.

[swirly]

Have you tried leeching beasts yet? I think currently I'm placing my hopes on them. I need to gain 3 more levels before they even become available to me though.

[Arethor]

I did try leeching beasts when i unlocked it last night. They do have better survivability and lasted longer than Rabid dogs. However, they still died fairly quickly when facing swarms of monsters. However with some of the other abilities I unlocked last night I opted to go with a completely different build.

[DeeBye]

This is something that I just can't solo with a minion build. I have to stay in close because of Mortar, but Fire Chains just tears me apart. Add in Shielding and me and my merry band just explode.

[DeeBye]

Have you tried leeching beasts yet? I think currently I'm placing my hopes on them. I need to gain 3 more levels before they even become available to me though.

I tried using every skill available to make Zombie Digs useful in Hell Difficulty. I sort of made it through Act 1, but Act II slammed the door on it. I had Leeching Beasts, Jungle Fortitude, Zombie Handler, Bad Medicine, Stinky Garg, and Plague of Toads all working for as much help as I could give them to stay alive. It just does not work.

I've ditched the dogs and went with a low-mana spam build like this. Hex is a much better CC skill, and Splinters with Pierce the Veil is the best single-target spammable skill. I went back to my original Spirit Walk + Soul Harvest opener, and my survivability increased a lot because I'm able to kill a whole lot faster in a short amount of time right off the bat. I'm not 100% happy with my choice of Firebomb-Flash Fire as my spammable AoE so I'm going to try out a few others. I might even just put Wall of Zombies or Grasp in that slot and just rely on Splinters for damage.

So right now my Zombie Dogs are in a kennel, waiting patiently for a patch to increase their survivability.

[swirly]

So right now my Zombie Dogs are in a kennel, waiting patiently for a patch to increase their survivability.

I'm starting to debate that myself. I'm in Act 1 Hell up to around the spider queen and I'm starting to debate if I even notice them anymore. I've also switched out my build a lot. Currently running with this. I'm liking the Fire Pit rune for Firebomb, though I know GG prefers Roll the Bones. I'm feeling like AOE or Single target, just throwing Fire Pits is fine. So using one dps skill and a bunch of cooldowns. I'm considering swapping out Zombie Dogs for Soul Harvest or Hex, but haven't quite worked myself up to it. I keep telling myself that maybe I'll find some gear that will up my damage enough to make them leech enough to live.

I'm also semi-considering keeping an eye out for regen gear and seeing how Feirce Loyalty works out. That is very dependent on drops though so may never happen.

[swirly]

I was just a hair from giving up on Zombie Dogs, but I've come up with a few more things to try. First up will probably be a shield if I can find a decent one. See if wearing more armor makes them stay alive any better.

After that I'm interested in trying out Fierce Loyalty and seeing if it is strictly regen that they get or if things like Spirit Barrage/Phlebotomize give them life as well. Steal or Life on Hit might be worth checking too.

I'm also curious about a Blood Ritual/Fierce Loyalty combination, but since I'm hardcore I'm thinking I am not going to attempt that one. Spirit Vessel and Jungle Fortitude are just too good to pass up. A softcore build with Jungle Fortitude, Blood Ritual, and Fierce Loyalty could be interesting though. Especially after figuring out how armor and life gains affect things.

Figured I'd post all these thoughts in case others had already tried them and had info to give on them.

[swirly]

One thing I didn't realize; apparently Healing Journey heals the dogs as well as you. I popped it while toying with Fierce Loyalty and they healed. Then I swapped out Fierce Loyalty and tried it and they still healed. So it doesn't seem connected to that passive, but interesting to note that it seems to be causing them to heal as well.

[swirly]

Seeing some oddity with Fierce Loyalty and Healing Journey. If you don't have Fierce Loyalty then Healing Journey doesn't heal your dogs. Which is as you would expect. If you switch to Fierce Loyalty then Healing Journey does heal them. Which is also as you expect. The oddity comes in when you then remove Fierce Loyalty again. I'm seeing Healing Journey still healing the dogs until I re-summon them. I've always heard that the dogs get their stats in a live manner such that you don't have to re-summon them when you get an upgrade, but this may not be true with all things involving them it seems.