Darts, spiders, or toads? Opinions?

[DeeBye]

I just hit level 17 and unlocked the Exploding Toads skill, which is hilarious.

I've been going back and forth between Darts and Spiders, but I tend to like the Jumping Spiders more because I can target nasties in the back of packs instead of having to hit things in the front. Exploding Toads does a crapload of damage, but the range is very short. The more I play around with the different ones, the more I keep going back to Jumping Spiders.

Also, the idea of throwing multiple clay pots filled with angry jumping spiders at my enemies rubs me just the right way.

[Kevin]

I just hit level 17 and unlocked the Exploding Toads skill, which is hilarious.

I've been going back and forth between Darts and Spiders, but I tend to like the Jumping Spiders more because I can target nasties in the back of packs instead of having to hit things in the front. Exploding Toads does a crapload of damage, but the range is very short. The more I play around with the different ones, the more I keep going back to Jumping Spiders.

Also, the idea of throwing multiple clay pots filled with angry jumping spiders at my enemies rubs me just the right way.

My little hard core guy is only L11, but I very much enjoy the jumping spiders, much for the reason you say. I've also recently hot keyed firebats with the first run that kicks the range up. This is in place of the int buff skill because being hardcore, even though a 5 stack would double damage of the spiders I had to get closer than I liked. The bats work well for things that get in close (and for really nice straight line junk smashing). But I've wondered the giant toad for that when I get there. So far it's been a very laid back playstyle, chucking jumping spiders at things that are stuck in all the undead hands reaching up from the ground, as my zombie dogs gnaw on things. It took me quite a while to get the achievement for repairing something because I just wasn't getting hit.

[NiteFox]

Spiders seem to be the way to go for lower levels so far. Spammable, negligible mana cost, and you're flinging clay pots of spiders into your enemies. You cannot argue with that, it's impossible.

Damage output seems low, especially considering the alternatives (Toads and Bats, especially Firebats), but the advantages far outstrip that downside.

Besides, spiders.

[NuurAbSaal]

spiders

I feel very much at home in this thread. Can't wait to start throwing myself.

take care
Tarabulus

[Arethor]

I just finished Normal with my Doctor. Personally my preference was spiders, depending on which runes I had available at the time.

I used leaping spiders for most of the time until I got spider queen. Once i got spider queen I actually put her on 2 and bound frogs to my left-click. Since the queen lasts a while you don't need to keep spamming buttons unless things move out of her range (she's kind of slow). Frogs do good damage (I was using Explosive toads) but they're unpredictable on which path they're going to take so it's only good if you're getting in close. Once I hit 21 I swapped to Firebomb and used that almost exclusively on my left-click. I was running with 2 other people a majority of the time so our massive AoE killed things quickly and that worked well to make it go even faster.

By the time ACT 3 rolled around I was running with a build something like this http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/wi...!Zd!aZZaaa I'd lead off with a Grasp, Cloud and then hit Firebombs once or twice and everything was dead unless it was an elite. If things got in too close I'd hit Confusion.

It's not an optimal build but it's what I was using. Zombie dogs start to become a bit useless towards Act 3 and 4 because they die too quickly. I'd probably swap that out for Soul Harvest or Spirit Walk. I didn't really mix things up too much, but I've heard good things about Locust Swarm with Pestilence rune and Plague Bats.

In the end it will come down to your play style and what sort of group you're running with. It actually adds a nice amount of variety and replay potential, which I like. I played Act 4 solo and ran with a very different kit at the end of it.

[NiteFox]

Well, since a certain spider-infected ruin demonstrated how weak Zombie Dogs are I decided to experiment a bit. I've currently settled on this build (With Zombie Charger selected purely as a "can't think of anything else to put here" skill). Combat's going like this:

10: Carpet bomb the area with Leaping Spiders.
20: Cast Grasp on the area. Laugh.
30: Pepper the area with darts and more spiders.
40: Horrify anything that comes too close, typically back into the Grasp area.
50: GOTO 10

It's working pretty well.

[DeeBye]

I almost totally ignored Spirit Walk thinking it was a brief "run away when overwhelmed" skill, but I've been using it as a lead-in skill instead to great effect. Basically you use it to get in the middle of a pack so you can pop off a 5 point Soul Harvest very quickly, and then run out and start spamming your <insert attack choice here>.

Some random thoughts:

- Zombie Dogs start out awesome, but quickly lose their appeal because they are just so damn squishy and the 60s cooldown is too long. Exploding Zombie Dogs levels a crapload of everything, but that 60s cooldown hurts.

- I'm really starting to think Soul Harvest is the backbone of a fun WD build. Being able to build up a 5-stack safely and quickly is the key (see Spirit Walk).

- Wallers are the worst.

- Bind your "Force Stand Still" button to the Spacebar - you'll be using it a lot and trying to hold the default Shift key while also using other keybinds will mangle your hand. Right now I still use the 1-4 keys, but I'm going to go ASDF or QWER soon.

- The Gargantuan is the Meat Shield you need (think Clay Golem of the Necromancer in D2). He's a big, lovable ox.

- Witch Doctors (and all ranged I guess) really get screwed as far as health globes go. Since enemies (ideally) die far away from the WD, the health globes are also far away and it's incredibly risky to just run in and grab them. This is a pity.

[Kevin]

I think ended up doing the last parts of Act 2 with this build http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/wi...!ZY!.ZaZ.a (I'm about 2K exp from L25 on my little hard core guy)

Some of those choices were because I was running with Frag's Barbarian and while soul harvest is pure awesome, I didn't get enough chances to get more than a 2 or 3 stack and spider queen, acid cloud, fire bomb, just worked way too well even if it wasn't buffed up. Haunt is very nice for champion packs and bosses, or when you get several packs and can slap it on a couple. The healing glyph actually makes a difference.

But yeah, if I were soloing things would change, and likely they would end up a lot more like what Deebye is doing; move in power up harvest, snare em all with grasp, and watch em melt with whatever DPS you prefer. I just enjoy the spider queen and firebomb animations too much, even though I miss the leaping spiders. While I'm not a huge fan of the gargantuan graphics, he really does hold up pretty well. When I was using leapers I'd not worry about him and just toss a jar or two over by him while I was dealing with other stuff. If things start hitting harder than they have been the bad medicine passive will certainly be useful with acid cloud.

But like I suspected I would as soon as the 6 skill limit went in, I want more slots. Though the limitations do help with strategy and really do work as builds, allowing big play style changes if you want.

But even when I do solo (I did most of 20-21 solo and 1-13 solo; 13-20 and 21-24 was done in groups) I've never really felt in any real danger, glad I've been doing it all hardcore. We'll see if that changes if I die of course.

[Arethor]

I'm currently in Act 2 Nightmare and really enjoying the versatility of his kit. I use almost entirely different skill sets depending on if I'm soloing or in a group. I've even swapped abilities on the fly to better suit certain situations.

Rain of Toads is really good damage, but does its best damage when your target isn't very mobile. Widowmakers sadly don't seem to do a lot of damage, however the mana return is nice if you're using Plague Bats (really good damage but mana intense) or other mana intensive abilities. Same with Spined Darts, lackluster damage, but gives mana. I still find myself using Firebomb with Flash Fire rune most of the time. Roll the Bones is better damage, however since it goes in a straight line it's best used in a small hallway. Flash Fire on the other hand can decimate open rooms thanks to it's hopping.

The increase in hp on enemies in Nightmare is very noticeable and elites can be really scary depending on their abilities. Last night I was in Act 2 and came across a few types of yellow Savage Beast (those big charging guys). They're annoying enough already if you don't avoid their charges, but some of the combinatioins were just brutal. Here's a few that I remember:

Vortex/Illusion - Vortex pulls you to the caster. Only the main yellow was casting it. Illusion causes both the main yellow and his minions to spawn "fakes" of themselves. I think it was 3 fakes every cast, but it was really hard to tell because of the sheer number of them.

Shield/Anything - I had a few shield combos. The shield pretty much makes them immune to most of my damage while it's up. You need to target the ones without their shield up and just whittle them down.

Mortar/Electric - Mortars hurt. Big time. You have to stay mobile to avoid the blasts. Electic causes them to cast charged bolts when hit. Even more stuff to dodge.

Mortar/Arcane - Mortars again. Arcane has them cast slow spinning long laser beams.

The worst of them all though was Waller/Extra Health. Walls + 4 charges = instant use of my Spirit Vessel. The extra health meant that they took forever to kill. To make matters worse I also had aggro from 2 trees, a dragonfly thing and a few goat men. I think I died 6 times before finally dealing enough damage to take them down.

I highly suggest going with a very tanky/safe sort of build Gnollguy and I wish your Doctor much luck.

[Kevin]

I highly suggest going with a very tanky/safe sort of build Gnollguy and I wish your Doctor much luck.

Yep I expect I'll get tankier. I've run with tankier builds at times already. Honestly one of the reason I like leaping spiders is because they allow me to stay mobile while still applying directed damage since they work a bit like a DoT and you can even fire them at your feet as you run and the mobs will take damage when then move up to them.

If that build I linked were for soloing the content I just did grasp would have been glyphed to add more slow, I also would have had horrify on a slot for sure and probably spirit walk as well (though for now I can generally get away when I need to but walls can still be scary). That's been part of my problem with bats, they keep me rooted too much but hungry bats at L45 looks promising.

The worry I have is that WD damage still feels low compared to other classes. Some of this is because of lot of the skills are "death of a thousand cut" type deals. Haunt is really a ton of damage but it's over 12s. In groups I can drop several of the defensive skills and combo some offensive stuff and I get more more "up front" damage quite nicely. Having to have too many active defensive abilities becomes a bit of a worry, though there are glyphs that unlock later that will give some more snare or leach abilities.

I know I'm still in easy mode (normal) and easier areas. Act I has a few dangerous spots, the tree chest that I solo'd when I had no idea what it was made me drink my first potion. The Butcher also showed that there could be some dangers but I didn't get in trouble. My 2nd potion drink was on Belial because I got in a bad position and had to run through a puddle, didn't have a choice, I was down around 350 HP.

But yeah that is part of the fun, seeing content I never have and knowing that if I screw up, it's over. I know HC won't be as much fun when I've seen the content before, but I still think most of my toons will play on that side. I play more slowly in general, and that doesn't annoy other people as much in HC groups.

But if there are folks that want to play SC I'd be more than happy to grab the other WD (or other class that I'm planning)

[Arethor]

I wasn't trying to imply that you would be playing careless (if it came across that way). I'd actually expect quite the opposite from someone playing HC. My intent was more so trying to give a friendly warning that the difficulty ramp going to Nightmare was a lot more significant than I expected from memories of D2. I found myself having to use a lot more hit and run or CC tactics than I did on normal, especially with the "Thousand Cuts" nature of the WD like you stated.

[Kevin]

I wasn't trying to imply that you would be playing careless (if it came across that way). I'd actually expect quite the opposite from someone playing HC. My intent was more so trying to give a friendly warning that the difficulty ramp going to Nightmare was a lot more significant than I expected from memories of D2. I found myself having to use a lot more hit and run or CC tactics than I did on normal, especially with the "Thousand Cuts" nature of the WD like you stated.

Nope didn't take it that way at all, I was just expanding on my thoughts and starting a few other chains and then rambling off topic. That's where the slower play style comment came from, I've always played the Diablo games at a bit slower pace than most folks. Not a lot slower, but slow enough that it throws other off their rhythm.

I've wondered how much nightmare ramps up, so it was good to read your initial comments. It's also part of my worry about how the WD deals damage. I think I'm glad I'm practicing circle kiting with him now, less likely to get adds that way I think, and it sounds like a skill that NM will need.

[DeeBye]

Once you hit level 21, Firebomb is a BEAST. I'm continuing my attack plan of running into packs with Spirit Walk and popping Soul Harvest to stack it to 5 before running back. Spamming Firebombs with 5 stacks of SH is incredible.

My build right now looks like this. I use a Templar (I'm playing solo), Gargantuan with his Cleave, and Zombie Dogs to run interference. It works well. The dogs are still sort of squishy, but they last long enough for me to get in, pop a 5 SH, and Firebomb everything to oblivion in no time.

[Kevin]

Once you hit level 21, Firebomb is a BEAST. I'm continuing my attack plan of running into packs with Spirit Walk and popping Soul Harvest to stack it to 5 before running back. Spamming Firebombs with 5 stacks of SH is incredible.

My build right now looks like this. I use a Templar (I'm playing solo), Gargantuan with his Cleave, and Zombie Dogs to run interference. It works well. The dogs are still sort of squishy, but they last long enough for me to get in, pop a 5 SH, and Firebomb everything to oblivion in no time.

Yep firebombs are, well, ahem, yeah, the bomb, OK I went there.

I still don't want to get too up close and personal with stuff so I'm still foregoing soul harvest (even if I glyph it to suck life too). But I found a way to mow things down pretty safely from a distance, that I got to a chance to test in some of the earlier parts of Act III, where you have the scary bombers that hurt if you let em blow up. At first I was using it purely solo with a templar as well, but then Frag joined up and we moved along then he had some family obligations and went back to town while I kept on. So I didn't have a templar and I was facing buffed mobs in a place where there were critters that could hit me and blow and up and take off like half my life, in HC. It felt like a great test bed.

I successfully wiped out three champion packs and two rares (one of whom was a waller) when Frag got back he commented that my little AoE build was working nicely. I was 25 when I started so I didn't have the firebomb or Acid cloud glyphs but it still was essentially the same.

I would move along, somewhat carefully as soon as I saw a pack I would drop grasp, with the 80% slow that held them for an Acid drop and queen spawn and thrown a firebomb or two. At that point everything is dead unless there is a special or another pack.

If there was a champion or rare I would get a haunt or two out before I started to fall back, since grasp would still generally have them slowed some. Usually I would have enough mana to drop another Acid Cloud and at that point even most champions were dead.

If it was all small stuff I would watch the queen if she started trundling off I'd move up and throw some bombs, assess the timer on grasp and see if another acid cloud was called for. I'm not intentionally gearing for damage but I was 300+ damage from the acid clouds.

Pure solo all this damage was overkill, solo in a 2 player game I needed most of it and it worked well. With a tanky type barb in front of me it worked really well.

I will admit I missed having a better escape skill a few times and there was some haunt spamming to get the leach going to make me feel a little better. I haven't missed the dogs, even for interference the extra damage just makes it so I don't need them. The gargantuan snaps back pretty well when you run so he becomes interference at times that way, and the queen seems to force mob interaction as well, which helps on the kiting.

Gruesome feast while it doesn't display a buff does show up in the char sheet and it does go off if someone else hits the orb and it does buff you up even if you don't need healing it appears but I haven't fully tested. So I usually still had a nice damage buff from that.

Poison cloud is by far my favorite skill even if it can suck mana. Firebombs are cool as all get out and while I'm not convinced that the glyph that makes them bounce is better, it's more fun so it's sticking for a bit.

But I can fully endorse dropping dogs for something else in the mid 20's. Like you said they still aren't completely useless but I find the control other skills can give you more enjoyable. Of course this is a playstyle thing and I'm very happy that there are options. I've changed up builds a couple of times, all of them have been fun in different ways, I'm just enamored with the stick em in place and watch the massive AoE's munch em while I'm no where near the action build I've got right now. It's why I'm skirting the edge and not having spirit walk or horrify out, but I'm keeping an eye on the mobs HP and damage output and expecting that I'm going to grab one (or both) and still quite love what they do. At this point the queen is probably what would go, though she can still be useful if something straggles out of the pack and near me since she takes stuff down faster than haunt and runs a bit of interference. But I think she would be the easiest to replace because I still find haunt very handy, even if it ends up on a weaker mob, it jumps to something else and I still get most of that 575% weapon damage.


I realize I'm repeating myself at times but it's because I'm having fun with it, and when the inevitable HC death hits me I'm going to come back and remind myself of the fun I was having with him, that it was worth it and now I can try a different style for awhile since it will be a new doctor.

[Arethor]

It sounds like you've adopted a similar playstyle to what I've been doing GG. I also have preferred to stay at range and watch them melt. My build I used most of last night was this one. I've found Fetish Army does a pretty good amount of AE damage in a small area around your character when you first cast it, and then there's lots of little guys to do damage and run interference. Since I don't have to worry about survival quite as much with you I've opted for some more offensive runes on things like Grasp too. Zombie Handler is there because Molten or other aura-type rares can burst him down quickly if he gets surrounded, Spined Dart because Acid Cloud + Haunt can be a lot of mana gone fast. I could have used Widowmakers too, and i'm not sure which would be better, but I chose to try out the darts.

One important thing to remember, and is worth repeating, is that ALL of your damage abilities scale off of weapon damage. Intellect is good. Intellect scales up your damage. However, the ratio at which Intellect scales up your damage is not as good as taking a weapon with higher DPS. Last night I swapped out my 1h/oh combo for a staff. I lost almost 200 Int, but because the staff was ~90 dps higher (My 1hander was old but best I had found up til then). My damage per dart more than tripled.

At the end of the night, right as I was about to log off I hit 43. So next time I'll be swapping to Flaming Darts and trading Zombie Handler for Spiritual Attunement. I very briefly hopped into a friend's game. He was in Act 1 Nightmare right where you meet Cain and fight the small group of Skeletons. My Flaming Darts were doing almost 2x the damage of the Spined Darts and were 1-shotting the Skeletons. I look forward to giving it a more thorough test drive next week (I'll be away this weekend )

[NiteFox]

Current Build

Goodbye darts, goodbye spiders, goodbye toad of hugeness (Played with it a bit as my right-click; fun, but not as useful as grasping eels for DPS).

Hello Gargantuan; Morbo tanks all, so no need for the annoying Templar. Hello utility Enchantress; though I'm sticking with her for her dialogue, I'd probably switch out to a more useful Scoundrel when I log back in. Hello actually learning to use Spirit Walk/Soul Harvest. Horrify is still damned useful, and Grasping Eels is a huge AoEDPS blast.

[Kevin]

My build I used most of last night was this one. I've found Fetish Army does a pretty good amount of AE damage in a small area around your character when you first cast it, and then there's lots of little guys to do damage and run interference.

So glad to hear that about Fetish army I was looking at that as a very likely replacement for the spider queen/horrify (as that slot is going to get a skill of that nature when I'm not just going purely DPS). Sure I won't be able to direct them to the current melting spot as well as the queen, but knowing they do a decent amount of initial burst and then work as interference sounds like they could be the supplementary escape skill I was hoping for.

I agree about the damage. I'm still one hand + off hand because the base DPS on the 2 handers (I find a lot that have lower damage than my 1H + OH and I still like to have the option for a shield in HC so it's an easier swap) hasn't been able to beat the +damage and stats on the off hand + 1 hand, but I'm always on the look out. I also love socketed weapons and rubies for the +damage. As you say it adds a bunch of damage. I was lucky to get a fairly good DPS dagger with a socket and +50 int on it around L23. The socket has kept it's damage competitive longer and I'm hoping I'll replace it soonish (I'm 28 now I think) but yes.



Oh and a general comment to everyone in the thread, very much enjoy reading the impressions like this, it works better for my poking and testing to see if it matches up or if there was a usage I didn't think about. While the raw numbers matter, I still like the fun factor and I look for the ideal of great fun factor + good numbers.

[Arethor]

So glad to hear that about Fetish army I was looking at that as a very likely replacement for the spider queen/horrify (as that slot is going to get a skill of that nature when I'm not just going purely DPS). Sure I won't be able to direct them to the current melting spot as well as the queen, but knowing they do a decent amount of initial burst and then work as interference sounds like they could be the supplementary escape skill I was hoping for.

One thing to keep in mind is that the initial cast burst is a small radius. Think frost nova on a mage in WoW or a Sorc in D2. So to get the benefit of that damage you have to be in somewhat close. Makes it interesting because you have to decide when is the best time to hit it. Too early and you don't get that damage added. Too late and you might take a chunk of damage. It's fun weighing it out in each situation.

I was lucky to get a fairly good DPS dagger with a socket and +50 int on it around L23. The socket has kept it's damage competitive longer and I'm hoping I'll replace it soonish (I'm 28 now I think) but yes.

That's actually identical to the dagger I was using up til last night. Socket + 50 Int but it was only ~ 32 dps (level 20-ish dagger). I have had that equipped for quite a while and finally replaced it at 42 with the staff I mentioned (~125 dps + Socket + 70-ish Int). Up til then nothing really warranted swapping out the 1h/oh combo I had.

Oh and a general comment to everyone in the thread, very much enjoy reading the impressions like this, it works better for my poking and testing to see if it matches up or if there was a usage I didn't think about. While the raw numbers matter, I still like the fun factor and I look for the ideal of great fun factor + good numbers.

I agree. It's fun to read everyone's impressions of abilities and different play style approaches because it helps to give me ideas of new things to try or see things that I overlooked.

[Crusader]

I've had fun with the WD so far. I agree the dogs lose their appeal in nightmare but I just can't let go of them. I personally always preferred poison dart with splinter as my main attack. It deals good single target damage.

for my secondary I now am in flux. Normal difficulty I breezed through with locust swarm, but in nightmare it's just not as effective. Also, you need to get in close to start it off. This was no problem in normal with 5 minions keeping the enemy busy, but in nightmare things get a lot trickier and the dogs die fast. So now I am working with haunt and It's ok, but I do hate having to spam it across enemies.

In my defensive slot I have summon zombie dogs. I can't let go! currently they are on life link to help me survive nightmare, but I think leeching beasts will be better. after all, they won't heal me much when they're dead.

For terror I have mass confusion, and I must say it is very effective on packs, also champions and elites. I have it on reduced cooldown. It's a life saver, crowd control and damage tool in one.

For decay I have acid cloud with Acid rain. this is my primary aoe spell and it's very effective, affecting a huge area.

For voodoo I have the Gargantuan (I love my minions!). It is now at restless giant, but that's because I'm not high enough level yet. It survives most encounteres so far so it's up almost constantly and it is a tank, keeping the enemy occupied toghet with my dogs while I harass them.

For passives I have jungle fortitude to make myself and my pets tougher. Zombie handler gives me an extra dog and makes my dogs and gargantuan even tougher. Lastly I have pierce the veil, but I am mostly waiting to replace it. I tried Fetish Sycophants, but the fetishes spend more time running around aimlessly then attacking the enemy. When they do decide to attack, they don't seem to do much damage. I am waiting for Fierce Loyalty and wonder if that will have my dogs last longer.


I really wonder what stats my pets have. I wish I could see it. I also wonder if there's some way you can make them tougher trhough itemization. for example, is their health determined by level, or do items have a role?

[DeeBye]

For passives I have jungle fortitude to make myself and my pets tougher. Zombie handler gives me an extra dog and makes my dogs and gargantuan even tougher.

I'm of the mind that Jungle Fortitude and Zombie Handler are almost required.

I'm 41 now, and this has been my soloing build since level 30: link

I've played around with other specs, but this is the one I enjoy the most. 4 Zombie Dogs + Gargantuan + Templar tank for me while I spam bouncing AoE Firebombs or single-target Poison Darts w/ Splinters.

Single target damage in boss fights is really low, but I am nigh-unkillable as long as I can keep 2 or 3 of my minions alive. I have huge mobility thanks to Spirit Walk, and several ways of reducing damage and healing myself. I do all my damage at long range, and I only get in close to pop off a Soul Harvest (which heals me with the Siphon rune). If I was playing Hardcore, I'd go with a build similar to this. I almost always have SOMETHING ready to use that gives me an out - whether it be a healing potion, Spirit Walk, some minions ready to resummon, or a healing Soul Harvest.

edit: I almost forgot to mention that Firebomb with the Flash Fire rune works amazingly for destroying game objects. It's really fun to enter a room with a bunch of destroyable things and throw a few bouncing Firebombs around.