Sirian's First Impression

[Sirian]

I prebought the game a couple weeks ago and just today got a beta invite in the final round of 300,000 invites they sent out with a month to go. Heavier stress testing, they say. That's fine. I decided to take a look.

This is not D2 reskinned. I can say that flat out, and I consider that a positive. A number of finer details remind me more of D1. Atmosphere, yes, but deeper than that. The combat engine has brought back a more tactical style of gameplay. The dev team has spoken of intending to keep the gameplay very simple but provide tactical depth, and I can feel this intent manifest in the flow of the game. There isn't the same-speed-as-monsters element of D1, nor the tile-based checkerboard map, nor the plethora of doorways and choke points, but the essence of the play is more similar to that than it is to D2's "maintain distance and just stay ahead of them" model.

Obviously, the beta does not contain enough content to make any final judgements. They could still falter in any number of ways. However, I do get the sense that the dev team actually gets it. They grok that D2 was tactically shallow in a way that D1 wasn't, and looked to capture the best of both games. That really is the foundational cornerstone upon which a good sequel must rest.

The game does have a pacing closer to D2, but this is mainly because D1 started as a turn-based game and they could only stretch that so far in to the real time world on the first pass. But pacing is less important than style -- and indeed, in today's market, a D1-paced game would just not sell as much anyway. But there is goodness to be found in the moments of more intense action, when you are chaining kills to increase your massacre bonus. D3 is GOOD when it is moving that fast, and it is also good that it does not always feel compelled to move that fast. So in a larger and deeper sense, the strategic pacing of the game is more akin to D1, even as the tactical pacing is fast like D2.

Nothing about my first play session with D3 reminds me of my list of gripes about D2 and especially LoD. That and I was having good fun. So I have to give them an A on first impression.

Some will be judgmental. Some will not be pleased by this or that detail. Some will set their expectations too high. But I find myself enjoying the game more as a successor to D1 than to D2 -- and that's right on target.

Blizz has won me over enough to look forward to the rest of the game with a hopeful outlook. This could well be the worthy successor we have waited so long to reach.


- Sirian

[FireIceTalon]

Sounds good. Although, I have seen a number of people here say D1 was a slow game, and I don't really see that (unless you are playing Ironman or some crazy variant). Slow in what way? I, and everyone I game with, plays at very fast and intense pace with our chars, both in PvM and PvP.

What really separated D1 from D2 was that in the former, the monsters hunted YOU, rather then the reverse. Is D3 like this also, or you actually hunt the monsters like in D2? To me, this makes a world of difference in the gaming environment as well as tactics. From what I can tell the huge swarms that D1 had are back too, which is a good thing.

[MonTy]

Glad to hear of your positive feedback on D3. Look forward to reading your future entries on the release client.

I agree regarding the feel of the game- playing the Beta has made me even more eager for May 15th. Specifically I'm curious to see what they've done for some of the boss fights.

[Sir_Die_alot]

I've had the beta awhile and there are 2 things that will probably drive me to not be in love with this game.

1) The big one. They are bringing magic find back. Before D2 came out I remember how great I thought this stat would be. Wow was I wrong. D2 became about stacking as much as you could. This ruined both the multiplayer aspect and the whole fighting through a dungeon feel. Better gear and skill at the game is more fun than weighted dice, but the further you progressed through the game the more it became about stacking the odds than actual character progression. When I realized that is when D2 died for me. I still pick up and play d1 now and then. D2, I lost my LOD key and I don't really care.

2) You get 6 abilities that you don't get to swap except through a very restrictive cooldown. And it can't be any 6, it has to be 1 of each of the 6 "types" of abilities. I can see Blizzard trying to keep things simple, but they overdid it. The lack of being able to easily swap to the more situational abilities means they won't ever be used. The barbarian's cleave is a great example. When there are a lot of things to hit, it is really cool. When there are only a few, it is very not cool. So you don't use it because it is so debilitating to use on smaller groups.

[Kevin]

I agree with your sentiments on the skills but they must have really changed cleave since the last time I played beta (there were no runes the last time I played they had taken them out and not put them back in yet) because I thought your example of cleave was going to be the other way around. Cleave was so good, be it a large or small group, that there was no reason to use anything else. Now I wouldn't be surprised if it is essentially a different skill than it had been. I've been letting a friend play on my account the last couple of days and looking over their shoulder a few times have noticed some really big changes on skills from the last time I played. But now you have me wondering just what did they do to cleave to make it situation and not the default no need to use anything else skill it had been.

[Mavfin]

I agree with your sentiments on the skills but they must have really changed cleave since the last time I played beta (there were no runes the last time I played they had taken them out and not put them back in yet) because I thought your example of cleave was going to be the other way around. Cleave was so good, be it a large or small group, that there was no reason to use anything else. Now I wouldn't be surprised if it is essentially a different skill than it had been. I've been letting a friend play on my account the last couple of days and looking over their shoulder a few times have noticed some really big changes on skills from the last time I played. But now you have me wondering just what did they do to cleave to make it situation and not the default no need to use anything else skill it had been.

I've been using cleave, it has very good uses, from what I see. I keep it for group killing, and use something else for single-target. Your 'normal use' skills usually won't be more than the 2 on the mouse, or possibly one more, and you'll have 3-4 situationals on the hotkeys. Seems like plenty to me. And you can switch them out pretty freely. It's not the least bit restrictive. There is a cooldown (5 sec?), and I don't think (haven't tried) you can change them in combat. I've not run up against the cooldown anytime I wanted to change skills.

As far as Sir Die's comments on magic find, that's really a matter of playstyle, where some people feel they *have to* play the game the way 'everyone else' does. That's the beauty of the Diablo series. No one compels you to play a certain way, including stacking magic find. Unlike in some MMOs, there's no reason to use the cookie-cutter min-max specs *unless you want to play that way*. So, IMO, anyone who is disappointed that magic-find (or any other stat) is in the game, is laboring under his or her own artificial constraints on playstyle. This is a single-player game that you can play with a couple friends, not an MMO. Any 'need' to use magic find or something else is just in *your* head.

As far as difficulty complaints, the beta is just a fraction of the very first act in the very first difficulty. I just think of it like SC2:

Normal --> Casual
Nightmare --> Normal
Hell --> Hard
Inferno --> Brutal

If you think of it like that, *of course* the beta content is easy for veterans. There's new people to the game to accommodate, too.

I just got the beta yesterday, played it half the night, and I think it'll be crack in pixel form, as someone else posted.

[Kevin]

And you can switch them out pretty freely. It's not the least bit restrictive. There is a cooldown (5 sec?), and I don't think (haven't tried) you can change them in combat. I've not run up against the cooldown anytime I wanted to change skills.

That's another big change since the last time I played too. It used to be a 30s cooldown on swapping skills. Which meant you put your hotkeys up and you used them. And like I said the skills weren't nearly as refined as they appear to be now, which is good. Cleave was doing well over 100 damage a hit when I was around L10 and it was completely spammable and would hit mutliple mobs if there were. I was watching my friend play the monk and didn't see much more than a 50 or so for damages at L10 in the current build.

This is good. Like I said the barb while satisfying was boring because it was cleave watch stuff splat, and then buff shout every now and then. The runes being back make things much more interesting, the 5s vs the 30s cooldown on skill swaps is better (though again in D2 I was using 15+ hotkeyed skills on several classes, the necro of course using more because every curse had excellent situational uses) so again, 5 is limited.

I'll play the beta again at some point before the 15th to get a bit more feel for the changes, which again I'm encouraged by over what I played. But again, to my original question, what does cleave do now that makes people not just spam it exclusively?

[Ruvanal]

And you can switch them out pretty freely. It's not the least bit restrictive. There is a cooldown (5 sec?), and I don't think (haven't tried) you can change them in combat. I've not run up against the cooldown anytime I wanted to change skills.

That's another big change since the last time I played too. It used to be a 30s cooldown on swapping skills. Which meant you put your hotkeys up and you used them. And like I said the skills weren't nearly as refined as they appear to be now, which is good. Cleave was doing well over 100 damage a hit when I was around L10 and it was completely spammable and would hit mutliple mobs if there were. I was watching my friend play the monk and didn't see much more than a 50 or so for damages at L10 in the current build.

This is good. Like I said the barb while satisfying was boring because it was cleave watch stuff splat, and then buff shout every now and then. The runes being back make things much more interesting, the 5s vs the 30s cooldown on skill swaps is better (though again in D2 I was using 15+ hotkeyed skills on several classes, the necro of course using more because every curse had excellent situational uses) so again, 5 is limited.

I'll play the beta again at some point before the 15th to get a bit more feel for the changes, which again I'm encouraged by over what I played. But again, to my original question, what does cleave do now that makes people not just spam it exclusively?

From the Beta Patch 16 notes:
The cooldown on swapping skills while in Normal difficulty has been decreased from 15 seconds to 5 seconds.

I am guessing that they want you to swap out skills more frequently at first to try for their overall feel. By the end of normal most players will likely be settling in on the few that they will use most of the time and the shift to a 15 second cooldown on will not be as bad of an impact with more skills that can still be available while the cooldown is in effect.

[Sir_Die_alot]

I didn't say cleave was bad, I said the opposite in fact. But it is a niche ability. When you have to choose between using a niche ability and something with a more broad use all the time it is impractical to not use the ability with a more broad use. I went and played the beta this morning after reading the 5 second comment. It seems in a recent patch (recent being a few weeks) they changed the cooldown from the 30 or so seconds it was. A step in the right direction, but switching skills on the fly is still clumsy and more effort than not doing it at all. Having a balanced ability set on your bar is still superior to abilities better suited to the immediate threat and swapping between them.

As for my comments on magic find, I'm pretty sure I said that is what would keep me from really getting deep into this game.

The game, at least in my view, comes down to a combination of mashing monsters and gambling on what they drop. As I stated above I find the combat clumsy or having little variety once you've set up your skills. Magic find's way of weighing the dice overpowers the more fun aspect of mashing monsters by stealing away from your ability to mash, again from my point of view. I suppose you could say it artificially inflates the game by making more things drop, rather than making you drop more monsters.

When I first got the beta, it was cool and I played through all the classes and maxed them. But eventually you get into the same rut. You're running the same places stacking magic find to try and get better things. It's pindle/baal runs all over. I've been there and done that. I'm not saying I'm not getting the game, I already have it downloaded and ready to go in a month. I'm just saying this "crack in piexl form" won't be as addicting the second time around. Especially when it has the same, again in my view, flaws along with some brand new ones. As it stands now, it is a graphic update but a gameplay backpedal from D2.

[EspyLacopa]

I didn't say cleave was bad, I said the opposite in fact. But it is a niche ability. When you have to choose between using a niche ability and something with a more broad use all the time it is impractical to not use the ability with a more broad use. I went and played the beta this morning after reading the 5 second comment. It seems in a recent patch (recent being a few weeks) they changed the cooldown from the 30 or so seconds it was. A step in the right direction, but switching skills on the fly is still clumsy and more effort than not doing it at all. Having a balanced ability set on your bar is still superior to abilities better suited to the immediate threat and swapping between them.

As for my comments on magic find, I'm pretty sure I said that is what would keep me from really getting deep into this game.

The game, at least in my view, comes down to a combination of mashing monsters and gambling on what they drop. As I stated above I find the combat clumsy or having little variety once you've set up your skills. Magic find's way of weighing the dice overpowers the more fun aspect of mashing monsters by stealing away from your ability to mash, again from my point of view. I suppose you could say it artificially inflates the game by making more things drop, rather than making you drop more monsters.

When I first got the beta, it was cool and I played through all the classes and maxed them. But eventually you get into the same rut. You're running the same places stacking magic find to try and get better things. It's pindle/baal runs all over. I've been there and done that. I'm not saying I'm not getting the game, I already have it downloaded and ready to go in a month. I'm just saying this "crack in piexl form" won't be as addicting the second time around. Especially when it has the same, again in my view, flaws along with some brand new ones. As it stands now, it is a graphic update but a gameplay backpedal from D2.

If you dislike magic find so much. . .why not simply not use it?

[LavCat]

The downside of magic find is that my level 99 D2 sorceress cannot pick up any items because every inventory slot is a charm of magic find. I hope D3 has a fix for this.

[Kylearan]

Hi,

2) You get 6 abilities that you don't get to swap except through a very restrictive cooldown. And it can't be any 6, it has to be 1 of each of the 6 "types" of abilities.

I think by enabling "elective mode" somewhere in the options, you are no longer required to choose only 1 of each of the 6 "types" of abilities; you can freely choose as many abilities from any one type as you want, for example 3 defensive skills. The overall maximum is still 6 though, but at least you're no longer restricted by type.

This doesn't solve the swap/cooldown issue completely of course, but might make it less painful.

-Kylearan

[FireIceTalon]

D3 will likely be superior to D2 in almost every way possible. No worry of friendly fire/pk, simpler rune system, better drops system (meaning if you kiledl it, it is yours), more skills - and all can be used so you dont have to worry making a permanent build and possibly screwing up your char for good, darker atmosphere more akin to D1, new Inferno difficulty to provide a more challenging game environment...the list goes on. Any with any luck, the PvP system will be better too. Loved PvP on D1, didn't care enough about D2 to get into it there, though almost every serious gamer on both says D2 PvP is a joke - and it looks like it from the vids ive seen.

[Concillian]

Been a while since I checked up on the D3 magic find design, but when I last checked it was:

Person X uses magic find and his drops are affected by that magic find.
Person Y in the same game doesn't use magic find and his drops are not at all affected by magic find.

The serious issue I had with this is that since someone only had to be in range of a kill for something to drop, it encourages public games where people will be stacked to the gills with magic find to the point of being near useless in combat looking for people to carry him through so he can collect his extra loot. He becomes a burden on the game while being rewarded for it.

I hope that at least that changed so magic find doesn't encourage people to grief others.

[Mavfin]

If you dislike magic find so much. . .why not simply not use it?

That was basically my point. If you don't want it, don't use it. This isn't MMO raiding, where you're required to max X stats or use Y build. This is for *you*, the player to have fun in whatever way makes you happy. Sure, as Conc points out, if you're gimping the team badly, that might be an issue, but, that's about the only thing.

I never ever did Baal/Pindle runs with max magic find. Wasn't fun for me. I just built another toon with another talent build instead. Choices are good. If you make the *choice* to play in such a competitive or min/max way that using magic find is mandatory for you, then you can't blame Blizzard for it existing.

---

Any with any luck, the PvP system will be better too. Loved PvP on D1, didn't care enough about D2 to get into it there, though almost every serious gamer on both says D2 PvP is a joke - and it looks like it from the vids ive seen.

My favorite improvement is that it looks like no one can force you to PvP if you don't want to; i.e. it's like a PvE server. No more getting killed just outside of town by someone forcing PvP on me.

[Ruvanal]

Been a while since I checked up on the D3 magic find design, but when I last checked it was:

Person X uses magic find and his drops are affected by that magic find.
Person Y in the same game doesn't use magic find and his drops are not at all affected by magic find.

The serious issue I had with this is that since someone only had to be in range of a kill for something to drop, it encourages public games where people will be stacked to the gills with magic find to the point of being near useless in combat looking for people to carry him through so he can collect his extra loot. He becomes a burden on the game while being rewarded for it.

I hope that at least that changed so magic find doesn't encourage people to grief others.

Yes it has been changed in patch 14:
'Magic Find and Gold Find are now shared amongst party members. The average combined value of the entire party's Magic and Gold Find applies to all players regardless of location in the game world. The averaged values will not display in the UI'

No real way to know for sure how much others in your game are using, stacking a lot of it will not give a great return on the chance if none of the others in your game have any or only small amounts. Of course someone stacking a lot of MF will likely not be doing as much of the damage that might be required in the later difficulties. Search the D3 official forums for various players opinion of this.

[Sir_Die_alot]

If you dislike magic find so much. . .why not simply not use it?

That was basically my point. If you don't want it, don't use it. This isn't MMO raiding, where you're required to max X stats or use Y build. This is for *you*, the player to have fun in whatever way makes you happy. Sure, as Conc points out, if you're gimping the team badly, that might be an issue, but, that's about the only thing.

You don't have to do anything in WoW either. There is nothing in the game that prevents a pvp geared frost mage socketed with all strength gems from joining a raid... except other players. You just have to accept the consequences of doing things in a particular way. In the case of Diablo it means you have to stack what is in essence a null stat in order to be successful in a key aspect of the game (finding items). To use the WoW model again, imagine if stacking resilience boosted your chance to win rolls in groups and raids. You have stacked an otherwise useless stat so you contribute less, but hey you get more stuff!

Out of all the arguments I haven't seen anyone tell me how this is a fun stat. It doesn't increase your attack speed or increase your damage. It doesn't buff or heal or make your enemies weaker. Stat's and skills that do those things are fun. Magic find doesn't do anything like that. It just makes loot better. But this is a circular thing when this becomes the priority on loot, you get more magic find so you can get better gear with more magic find on it... Eventually every character comes to this unless you are playing some weird variant that deliberately avoids the kill-loot, kill-get better loot aspect of the game. Again if someone can explain how that circle is more fun than trying to make the biggest baddest monster killer I would actually appreciate it. Maybe I could enjoy Diablo 3 for more than the fresh storyline with that understanding.

[Treesh]

You're running the same places stacking magic find to try and get better things. It's pindle/baal runs all over.

Isn't the point of the Nephalem Valor to curb the "make a game, kill Boss, leave game" issue? It's not perfect, but it does reward you for killing more than just the same boss over and over again.

---

Out of all the arguments I haven't seen anyone tell me how this is a fun stat. It doesn't increase your attack speed or increase your damage. It doesn't buff or heal or make your enemies weaker. Stat's and skills that do those things are fun. Magic find doesn't do anything like that. It just makes loot better. But this is a circular thing when this becomes the priority on loot, you get more magic find so you can get better gear with more magic find on it... Eventually every character comes to this unless you are playing some weird variant that deliberately avoids the kill-loot, kill-get better loot aspect of the game. Again if someone can explain how that circle is more fun than trying to make the biggest baddest monster killer I would actually appreciate it. Maybe I could enjoy Diablo 3 for more than the fresh storyline with that understanding.

It's only a circular thing if you are a min/max personality. I happen to enjoy seeing unexpected shinies. Hell, in WoW, I would prospect for people just because I liked to see what things came out of it. Magic find is the same way. It's "Ooh! Fancy thing that's a different color than the others!" for me. It doesn't matter if it's something I can actually use or not; I just like seeing new things drop. That doesn't mean that I completely stacked magic find gear though, despite really liking the shinies it helps to drop. So you don't find possible new gear fun. Just say so instead of trying to claim that it's going to be a horrible, horrible thing in the game. That's perfectly fine. I happen to like magic find because, yes, it IS fun for me, but no, I don't go overboard with it.

[swirly]

Again if someone can explain how that circle is more fun than trying to make the biggest baddest monster killer I would actually appreciate it.

I've not touched D3, but I'll give my general magic find thoughts from D2 and why I like it. Put simply, it adds another dimension to balance. In most games you have to find a balance between kill speed and survivability. By adding magic find you add another balance point. Now you want to find a balance where you kill at a speed you are happy with, don't die (at all or not much depending on hardcore or not), and yet still have the highest chance you can to find gear. Without magic find you can really push to where you are the best killing machine possible. With magic find you have to push more towards finding the line where if you fall below it you either don't kill mobs fast enough or don't live. It adds pressure to keep yourself at just the right power level instead of being overpoweringly strong.

Obviously this changes a lot based on the difficulty of the content. You can farm old easier content with large amounts of magic find and still have plenty of dps and defense. You can also disregard magic find and stack dps/defense gear for new content planning to go back and farm it latter with other gear. That is all well and good. For some people maximizing their magic find and farming is fun. For other people maximizing their kill speed and survivability is fun. For me it is finding that balance between the two that lets me farm as little as possible and still progress through the game. I like to find the balance point where I can kill things, live, and have the best chance at gear to enable me to continue on.

To me this is a more fun and enjoyable style than simply trying to build the strongest killing machine possible. It's a more complex system. As I said at the start, a killing machine system only requires you paying attention two types of stats. Granted there are various different versions of each type. Like hit, strength, etc all are dps and stam, defense, etc are all survivability. So there are more balances internally to find the optimal killing machine, but in the end it really is just balancing dps and survivability. A magic find system adds in that third balance point to add even more complexity. I personally would find it dull to just build the strongest character possible. I like that there is a limiting factor I have to consider. Something to make me find the edge and balance upon it.

It reminds me of how some games add a weight to armor and items you carry. So you have to juggle wearing heavy armor and not carrying much or wearing lighter armor and carrying a lot. That system is kind of annoying cause it is punishment based... a negative reward system. Yet I do appreciate that it places a limit on things. I find limits to be what makes a game interesting. Magic find is the same, but it is a positive reward system. Now this is semantics to some degree. I call it a positive reward because you are starting at a baseline and are rewarded for limiting your character. I'm sure others will call it negative cause they say the baseline is artificially lowered to make up for it and so there is a constant passive negative influence. Both views have merit, but I think magic find is a much better limit than things like that weight option. Like I said, I view it as a positive reward system and so don't find it annoying and I think having limiting factors a player has to balance enhances the game. Is it the perfect limiting factor? Probably not. If I knew what was I'd be a millionaire from making a game that used whatever that perfect system is. I do think magic find is a good one though.

To comment more directly on the circle portion of it where you wear magic find to get more loot with magic find to wear to find more loot with magic find. I think this just depends on the difficulty of the game. If you beat the game on normal and then go back and farm things to increase such then sure... you are doing that circle. However you could then go on to play hard mode and see how far you can get. Maybe doing some farming when you reach a point you can't progress past until you can again. Then when you beat hard, you move on to brutal. As long as their is a harder mode then I don't see the circle as a problem. Eventually you beat all the difficulties and then you move on to hardcore where if you get the balance wrong you have to start over. Each difficulty makes finding the right balance even more critical.

Now if the game is such that you can just stack magic find and stomp through all the difficulties without worrying about your other stats then that isn't an issue with magic find, but with the difficulty balance the developers have given it. The talk seems to be that some difficulties in D3 will be very tough though. The developers have said "You will die" right? So how do you balance the fact that you will die with finding room to fit magic find on your gear? I think that will be quite enjoyable to find out.

Of course then most people will probably stack magic find, go farm old content for even stronger gear, then go back and kill that harder stuff. How is that really any different that without magic find though? Even without it you'd eventually, hopefully, reach a point that your gear isn't good enough to get past right away. If you never reach that point then that sure is a short boring game with no challenge. So thus without magic find you end up going back and farming for gear as well. Magic find simply gives you a way to control the balance more. Without it then the developers set what the level is and you just build a character to kill as fast as possible. With it they set a level and you then build a character to kill as fast as possible with as high a chance at loot as possible. To repeat, it adds another piece to balance. It adds another aspect of the game in your control. To me, that is only a good thing.

[Ruvanal]

Now if the game is such that you can just stack magic find and stomp through all the difficulties without worrying about your other stats then that isn't an issue with magic find, but with the difficulty balance the developers have given it. The talk seems to be that some difficulties in D3 will be very tough though. The developers have said "You will die" right? So how do you balance the fact that you will die with finding room to fit magic find on your gear? I think that will be quite enjoyable to find out.

This reminded me that the attribute 'gold find' is on gear also. In D2 this was a pretty much worthless stat since the gold itself was only of minimal value to 95+% of the players (minor amount needed for any repairs). In D3 the gold is not something that is easily lost in piles when you die like in D2 and the repairs can escalate up quite a bit. There are also some fairly large sinks for the gold that have you wanting quite a lot of it. These are things like upgrading your vendors for being able to make better quality items for you and increasing the size of your shared stash (50k to 100k and up as you increase its size).

The developers/testers commented that in one of their posts of test the inferno difficulty that they were really desiring that they could afford to have some 'gold find' on the gear and not caring if they had any 'magic find'. The repair costs were cutting into them fairly hard at that point in their progression and they would likely have to swap in some gold find gear and go back to some easier content to farm up some more gold so that they could afford to go back to inferno progression.

So to me, this fits in with what Swirly is talking about here, you will likely need to set some different gear sets up for yourself for the later difficulties so that you can do your progress. I could easily see that each toon may have a prime DPS gear set for advancement and possibly some 'magic find' and 'gold find' gear that several of their toons could swat to from the shared stash when they need to work at building up their resources (the vendors breakdown stuff like magic items to get the materials for making their wares, so even the junky magic items have value).