Super-guild has already cleared Naxx

[Swiss Mercenary]

I've described it as doing Karazhan in tier 5.

Sounds about right. 9/15 (Spider, Plague, Military) 25-man Naxx in our first night with two wipes is remarkably boring. I am extremely dissapointed that its not any more difficult then the 10-man version. I'm not seeing Abomination wing, or Kel'Thuzad giving any trouble - Sapphiron will probably just be a question of people learning not to dance in the blizzards.

Now, I wasn't looking forward to pre-nerf Kara level of difficulty... But walking through the instance, one-shotting everything is not what "Progression" should be about - at least on the 25-man scale. As a resto shaman, in at least half the fights, I find myself with nobody to heal, spamming lightning bolt... And still topping the healing meters.

I'm all for accessable raid content, but when heroic achievements are more difficult then 25-mans, there's a problem.

[Delc]

Sounds about right. 9/15 (Spider, Plague, Military) 25-man Naxx in our first night with two wipes is remarkably boring. I am extremely dissapointed that its not any more difficult then the 10-man version. I'm not seeing Abomination wing, or Kel'Thuzad giving any trouble - Sapphiron will probably just be a question of people learning not to dance in the blizzards.

Sapphiron is the hardest fight in the instance, by a long shot. Mainly because of the massive amount of incoming damage on the whole raid, and the large hitbox (makes positioning a challenge for the tank). KT is a giant snoozefest, we almost got him on our first pull (20%).

Malygos looks to be a bit harder, but not much.

I know Blizz wanted to throw a bone to the 'casual' guilds, but there are pugs clearing big chunks of Naxx25 already. I imagine any guild that can come up with 25 people of a reasonable class balance will roll over the place pretty quickly, no matter how casual they are. Overall I am really let down by the difficulty level of this expansion.

[Mordekhuul]

Sapphiron is the hardest fight in the instance, by a long shot. Mainly because of the massive amount of incoming damage on the whole raid, and the large hitbox (makes positioning a challenge for the tank). KT is a giant snoozefest, we almost got him on our first pull (20%).

Malygos looks to be a bit harder, but not much.

I know Blizz wanted to throw a bone to the 'casual' guilds, but there are pugs clearing big chunks of Naxx25 already. I imagine any guild that can come up with 25 people of a reasonable class balance will roll over the place pretty quickly, no matter how casual they are. Overall I am really let down by the difficulty level of this expansion.

I wouldn't judge an expansion on the entry level raid dungeons. Blizzard has stated over and over they are trying something new here and making the first round of raid dungeons much more accessible to the general wow population, in ways even Karazhan was not (Kara had road blocks in it).

I do, however, wish that initial WotLK release had contained ZERO raid dungeons, with the possible exception of the Wintergrasp boss. I find that the 5 man heroics contain some really fun challenges at our current gear levels, and would really enjoy spending the next month maxing our gear levels in them.

Instead we have double Naxx10 raids planned tonight, and will most likely be running Naxx25 on Wednesday, meaning the start of a fairly normal raid schedule that leaves less time for heroics.

[vor_lord]

Overall I am really let down by the difficulty level of this expansion.

I'll echo this.... and I'm just barely level 75. I really enjoyed the 5 mans while leveling in TBC -- if done with appropriate gearing and at -3 to the bosses, they provided an exciting challenge when done for the first time as long as you didn't know anything about the fights.

In Wrath, I think the 5 man designs are top-notch -- but they are a joke for difficulty. Even at -5 there is little challenge to be had -- it just slows you down some with all the misses.

I'm somewhat dismayed to hear this extends even to 25 man raiding. Hopefully some adjustments will be made.

[Tal]

I'll echo this.... and I'm just barely level 75. I really enjoyed the 5 mans while leveling in TBC -- if done with appropriate gearing and at -3 to the bosses, they provided an exciting challenge when done for the first time as long as you didn't know anything about the fights.

In Wrath, I think the 5 man designs are top-notch -- but they are a joke for difficulty. Even at -5 there is little challenge to be had -- it just slows you down some with all the misses.

I'm somewhat dismayed to hear this extends even to 25 man raiding. Hopefully some adjustments will be made.

Anyone considered that maybe the difference is that the playerbase has become more skilled at the game over the intervening four years? Maybe after honing our skills in classic raiding, in TBC and in heroics the average player of WoW is pretty adept?

I don't know about all of you but I'm ten times the tank I was in Classic WoW - and despite being arms I was considered pretty highly among my peers. And I know tanks that are ten times the player I am.

I'm one of the players that has benefited from this change. I'm finally able to see the content I was dreaming of seeing but didn't have a hope of seeing normally. I was lucky enough to kill Illidan and Archimonde before the expansion came out and was ecstatic. But I'm also happy that one person having an off night doesn't always equal ruining everyone else's night. I'm thrilled to know that I can encounter and interact with content I previously couldn't because I can't afford to raid 4 or 5 nights a week.

[NiteFox]

Anyone considered that maybe the difference is that the playerbase has become more skilled at the game over the intervening four years? Maybe after honing our skills in classic raiding, in TBC and in heroics the average player of WoW is pretty adept?

I'm not entirely sure about that myself. As far as my instancing career is concerned, I did almost zero 5- and 10-mans in Classic; Ragefire Chasm was the first and only dungeon that I cleared on my first toon, and I've only revisited it with my paladin, as well as three-manning Shadowfang Keep for the Ranseur quest. I've soloed more Classic dungeons for various holidays and reasons, but as for approaching dungeons "properly"... Well, it's just RFC.

TBC was a lot better. In fact, the only two 5-mans I never actually did was Underbog, Slave Pens, and Magister's Terrace. Everything else, from Ramparts to Arcatraz, I've cleared. That said, I've never actually ran a Heroic. Not once. Well, except for three-man cheesing Don Carlos in Old Hillsbrad for his even nicer hat (The mention of which has reminded me that I really ought to get my butt in gear for the Haliscan set). I've always been massively insecure about my ability to perform in Heroics, as well as the general state of my gear. Nope, never been confident to try any Heroics.

When TBC started, I did attempt Ramparts at the recommended level, and due to an astoundingly inept tank was generally put off running instances "when I should". When I mentioned that I ran pretty much all TBC 5-man content, I mean that I did it at level 70.

I've vowed to be a whole lot better with Wrath. I ran Nexus within a week of Wrath's launch and was pretty much surprised as to how easy it was compared to Ramparts. There was no attempt at maintaining any CC, just powering through the trash. Generally, there was no surprises with the bosses, aside from one cloth DPS dying very late during Keristrasza due to standing behind her. Nobody was levelled beyond the 71-73 range the dungeon caters for, and we never even broke stride in clearing it.

Utgarde Keep was somewhat different. I ran it at 76 (Late 76... The exp I got from the three quests associated with the dungeon levelled me to 77). We had an Unholy Death Knight tank and a lagging Paladin healer, and we still had no surprises until Ingvar the Plunderer, who wiped us at about 5% in his second phase the first time, and killed three-fifths of the party on the second attempt. Those Dark Smashes tore the tank, healer, and our Fury Warrior to shreds before we even got him down to 25%, and the feral Druid only survived through throwing enough HoTs on himself, and I only through my Medallion of Heroism and being overlevelled, and even when the three other members dropped, I was down to 10%. My Ferocity pet had to tank him down to death, and even if I had to pop Heart of the Phoenix, I knew I wouldn't have any chance to survive the few seconds it takes for my pet to get back up. A pretty tense encounter, but mainly due to technical issues (Healer lag) and the sheer power of Ingvar.

I may run Azjol-Nerub tonight. To be honest, I'm not expecting any surprises.

Edit: This just in - Azjol-Nerub: Easiest. 5-man. Ever.

[Lissa]

I've described it as doing Karazhan in tier 5.

For me so far, this expansion has been more about the lore. There is just so much, somethings I saw coming (like who the Scarlet Onslaught Admiral really is) and others I didn't (what happened when Arthas got Frostmourne and the ensuing events right after). From a lore perspective, this one is chock full things (some retcon, some new information about all the Azerothian races).

[Mordekhuul]

I'll echo this.... and I'm just barely level 75. I really enjoyed the 5 mans while leveling in TBC -- if done with appropriate gearing and at -3 to the bosses, they provided an exciting challenge when done for the first time as long as you didn't know anything about the fights.

In Wrath, I think the 5 man designs are top-notch -- but they are a joke for difficulty. Even at -5 there is little challenge to be had -- it just slows you down some with all the misses.

I'm somewhat dismayed to hear this extends even to 25 man raiding. Hopefully some adjustments will be made.

None of it will be adjusted with the current content. As Blizzard has reiterated, it is a design goal of theirs to make sure the early raid content (which is really just rehashed from classic raid content, mostly) is very accessible.

The disappointment will be if difficulty doesn't ramp up with raid content released over time.

I wasn't surprised to smash non-heroic 5 man content. It is designed for folks starting the expansion in poor gear and upgrading items the moment they step through the door in Northrend, and only gaining upgrades here and there as they level.

I find heroics to be appropriately challenging, particularly when you layer in the many, many achievements specific to each dungeon that add a level of extra challenge to the encounters. In fact, they feel quite a bit like TBC heroics did at first, where some are fairly easy and some are challenging even before you add achievements in.

[Swiss Mercenary]

Anyone considered that maybe the difference is that the playerbase has become more skilled at the game over the intervening four years? Maybe after honing our skills in classic raiding, in TBC and in heroics the average player of WoW is pretty adept?

Unlikely. The usual suspects were standing in fires (and void zones), CHARGING UP THEIR LASERS in front of whirlwinding mobs, catching flame walls to the face (Over and over and over), and failing the Heigan dance. (One-shot him with half the raid dead after the first transition, and 6 people up at the end).

(Yes, they were carried through T6... Who you know, not what you know, etc, etc)

And don't get me started on the numbers... Our mage and ret paladin (10-man) did less damage combined then either our warlock or shadow priest. As a healer, I was too busy fighting the other two healers for the pitiful amounts of damage the raid was taking... While our disc priest smited his way through the zone.

I'm also seeing the same level of play in PUGs as I did pre-BC (Although, the first week of 80, when only the hardcore were doing heroics was a refreshing change of pace).

I don't mean to come off as an elitist prick, here - I think it's a good investment that casuals will get to see raid content (And should continue to see it, thanks to 10-mans). I also think that some the entry requirements for BC 25-mans were too steep... However, it seems like, at least for 25-mans, the pendillum swung way too far (In the right direction).

[Quark]

I don't mean to come off as an elitist prick, here - I think it's a good investment that casuals will get to see raid content (And should continue to see it, thanks to 10-mans). I also think that some the entry requirements for BC 25-mans were too steep... However, it seems like, at least for 25-mans, the pendillum swung way too far (In the right direction).

Naxx is the wrong zone to think about for 2 reasons. As stated, the "early raid" instance. More importantly, it was known. I mean, really really known. Anyone who didn't know Naxx in the slightest sense (even third-hand knowledge) is either new to the game or was living in a bubble.

Meanwhile, for all the talk about how easy WotLK is so far in this thread, Sartharion has not been mentioned once. Get Sarth + 3 down, then call it easy. Get the Naxx achievements (Hello, The Immortal) and call it easy.

[Mavfin]

Intro-content is intro-content. Experienced raiders steamrolling intro content is news? Experienced players findng normal 5-mans easy is news? Try more pugs and see if the normal stuff is as easy as it looked with you and your trusted friends. Heck yeah, with my trusted friends, I could tank stuff at -4 and eat some crushes, no big deal. Tried it in a pug and died horribly. Also, another thing that changed everything is that all tanks can do the pally-tank AoE thing in instances. CC comes later, heroics, where if the tank's not overgeared, they can't pull everything. Also, if you're wearing T6 starting LK, it better be easy, because you're way the hell overgeared for anything below about 78.

If 3.1 comes and difficulty doesn't rise, then people can complain, but till then, Blizzard has tuned the first part of the expansion content to the median player, not the median raider, and that's a financial decision.

[Swiss Mercenary]

Meanwhile, for all the talk about how easy WotLK is so far in this thread, Sartharion has not been mentioned once.

OS is a nice idea, much like ZA was a nice idea.

Get Sarth + 3 down, then call it easy. Get the Naxx achievements (Hello, The Immortal) and call it easy.

The achievements, on the other hand, are ridicilous, since many of them are arbitrary handicaps (Perhaps I should try raiding blindfolded. Maybe that will make it challenging) or just ridicilously frustrating.

I'll go for them, but only because there's going to be nothing better to do till Uldaur. Wiping over and over to a boss, while learning the encounter is one thing. Failing the Thaddius one because the one halfwit in the raid crossed the charges is another. Just like Naxx is terribly untuned in its vanilla form, the achievements are, for the most part, terribly overtuned, when you take the retard factor into consideration. The game's missing a middle-ground.

[Quark]

The game's missing a middle-ground.

Heroic: Arachnophobia
Heroic: Denyin' the Scion
Heroic: Gonna Go When the Volcano Blows
Heroic: Make Quick Werk Of Him
Heroic: Momma Said Knock You Out
Heroic: Spore Loser
Heroic: The Dedicated Few
Heroic: The Hundred Club
Heroic: Twilight Assist
Heroic: Twilight Duo

All Achievements that don't require your full raid force (only yourself or part of the raid force) to not be morons. Many are easy now, many will be easy as you gear up.

[Concillian]

The achievements, on the other hand, are ridicilous, since many of them are arbitrary handicaps (Perhaps I should try raiding blindfolded. Maybe that will make it challenging) or just ridicilously frustrating.

I kind of like the idea of a hard push on a user adjustable difficulty knob.

Ye old timed Strat run was a great deal of fun. I did it a bunch of times when I didn't have anything to gain from it. I look forward to the challenges like 9-man 10-mans and such.

Most great games have some level of handicaps to make them difficult. Look at the number of Lurker Lounge people who had to make arbitrary limitations in order to make Diablo or DiabloII difficult.

[Sword_of_Doom]

I kind of like the idea of a hard push on a user adjustable difficulty knob.

Ye old timed Strat run was a great deal of fun. I did it a bunch of times when I didn't have anything to gain from it. I look forward to the challenges like 9-man 10-mans and such.

Most great games have some level of handicaps to make them difficult. Look at the number of Lurker Lounge people who had to make arbitrary limitations in order to make Diablo or DiabloII difficult.

I wish they had kept Naxx10 easy like it is and made Naxx25 Black Temple difficult. If you look at the Wowjutsu stats most guilds were in SSC/TK so to me a Black Temple difficulty raid zone to start wouldn't be a insurmountable object to the target market of Blizz. On my server 40'ish of the 200 raid guilds tracked were in Black Temple and only 14 had Sunwell kills.

I am somewhat dismayed that 3 weeks into the xpac my guild has killed all T7 content. Yesterday we did a poll and asked how many in our guild had done Naxx40 before. Only 4 of us had. So a very inexperienced Naxx group can roll through it in 2 nights. Is that good for the raid game? It was embarassingly easy. A lot of one shots with some wipes on Patchwerk, Sapphiron and Kel'thuzzad.

The next patch better be great because i think Blizzard may have shot themselves in the foot on this one. People want challenge and there is none to be found. Of course people are going to bring up achievements but that is cheap tactic by Blizz to recycle and make content interesting. How fun is it to farm a zone for 3 to 6 months? I guess we will get the answer with the shape of the game in the next patch.

[Quark]

How fun is it to farm a zone for 3 to 6 months?

How can you possibly bring up this point with a straight face? The whole reason they made Naxx easier and are doing more tiered releases (rather than everything by 3.1) is because of the problems with TBC. There was 11 months between Black Temple and Sunwell Plateau.

[Swiss Mercenary]

I kind of like the idea of a hard push on a user adjustable difficulty knob.

Where's my blindfold?

Most great games have some level of handicaps to make them difficult. Look at the number of Lurker Lounge people who had to make arbitrary limitations in order to make Diablo or DiabloII difficult.

I wouldn't consider the mind-numbing simplicity of 99% of Diablo (II), and the associated handicaps to make it somewhat to very challenging a good thing. Variants were things of necessity, rather then something I'd applaud as a good example of game design.

[Bolty]

Intro-content is intro-content. Experienced raiders steamrolling intro content is news? Experienced players findng normal 5-mans easy is news? Try more pugs and see if the normal stuff is as easy as it looked with you and your trusted friends.

Right on!

I'm not seeing what the problem is here. Content will either be too easy or too hard, depending on a ton of factors:

1) Your skill level
2) Your gear level
3) Your party/raidmates skill level
4) Your party/raidmates gear level
5) Logistics (ability to get 25 people together, or 10, or 5)

A recent blue post made just a day or two ago stated that according to Blizzard's compiled statistics, the majority of active World of Warcraft players do not yet have a level 80 on their account. These are the people Blizzard is aiming at - the majority.

If you're posting here...heck, if you're READING here, you're not the majority of WoW players. And this isn't even Elitist Jerks or anything. If you regularly read that site, you're already in the top 1% or 2% of players just due to the knowledgebase held therein.

Perspective is a rough thing. To some of us, this content is a joke. Try joining a PuG and seeing if it's still a joke. I heard from a guildie that his alt joined a 10-man Naxx pug and the Heigan fight took over an hour because 8 players died and it was just him and the tank up. Meanwhile, I had the Safety Dance achievement done on my first try. Does this mean I'm awesome? No, it means I win at being with 9 other players who don't die in the dance phase. Go me! Woo!

For players that are in high-end guilds, sure, the content is a joke. But Blizzard put in achievements to make it a little more interesting, and I'd say it's working. Grand Widow Faerlina too boring? Try killing her without dispelling her enrage and get the achievement. When you've been farming KT for a month or two, the place is boring. Try fighting KT when you have no deaths on any of the other encounters and you can get The Immortal achievement, and suddenly it's a rush. Sartharion with three drakes up, now universally considered the hardest raid content in the game at the moment, is something only a few guilds worldwide have done and the rest of the hardcores are chasing.

Meanwhile, Joe Q. Casual who doesn't have a level 80 yet will get to do all of this someday, assuming he/she succeeds at factor #5 above. They will get to have fun seeing raid content and, better yet, get to learn more about raiding. We all started somewhere. What, were you an uber raider when you first started? No, you sucked, and got better.

How quickly we forget the failure of the TBC launch, with raid content that was so blown the other way towards insane difficulty that players burned out left and right. Hardcore, high-profile players were quitting the game in protest over the stupidity of the original Gruul and Magtheridon encounters, which, if never nerfed by Blizzard, would have NEVER been beaten by a vast majority of the playerbase, even with all the gear upgrades! If you were a player with no raid experience, where were you going to learn how to raid?

Blizzard's said publically that later raids won't be this easy, but I doubt the curve will be that steep, really. I think they'll maintain an easier pace to the game in general, and put in achievements for the hardcore guilds to chase. The difference between the difficulty of Sartharion, Sartharion with 1 drake up, 2 drakes up, and 3 drakes up is dramatic. Time will tell where Blizzard goes with this.

Don't forget that PvE gear needs to scale with PvP gear as time goes on. Blizzard may be trying to keep the two curves fairly even between difficulty and time investment. Which would mean that to get super uber PvE gear, you may have to do super uber PvE achievements - while those who just want to check out all the content in the game remain happy they get to see it. There's a bit of precedent in the game right now with Sartharion's loot table changing as you leave more drakes up.

Right now, it's all conjecture. But if the difficulty level in the game now gets more people into raiding, I think it can only be a good thing.

-Bolty

[Concillian]

I wouldn't consider the mind-numbing simplicity of 99% of Diablo (II), and the associated handicaps to make it somewhat to very challenging a good thing. Variants were things of necessity, rather then something I'd applaud as a good example of game design.

It depends on what you're trying to accomplish with your game design.

Are you trying to market your game to 5% of the total population of gamers? Or are you trying to market your game to 90% of gamers who have the ability to seek difficulty as they see fit.

See the Super Mario games. You can complete them pretty easy, but have some challenge. Once you learn the controls and the tricks, it's not too hard. The hardcore will go back and find all the secrets, etc... Lego Star Wars series, similar theme. Many very good games use this method of appealing to the masses, but providing ways for the user to provide their own challenges.

If you cater to the top 2%, you have a game destined for failure due to lack of critical mass (Vanguard)

[Tal]

Where's my blindfold?
I wouldn't consider the mind-numbing simplicity of 99% of Diablo (II), and the associated handicaps to make it somewhat to very challenging a good thing. Variants were things of necessity, rather then something I'd applaud as a good example of game design.

I have a hard time putting my faith in any game designer that would gear their games for the top 5% of their player population playing at 100% of their abilities. I also have a hard time with being punished along with 24 other folks because someone(s) having an off night.