Soooo....Mass Effect 3

[Taelas]

Also, I completely disagree about seperating yourself from the character is roleplay. Roleplay is putting yourself into the position of the character and thinking as the character would think and doing as the character would do, that is the heart of roleplay. To just blindly choose an option because it's "paragon" or "renegade" is not roleplay at all. Roleplay requires you to think how the character would act given the situation, not because you get points one way or another.

Yes, you are putting yourself into the role of a character, but you must still have a filter between what you would do, as yourself, and what the character would do.

I didn't say you should 'blindly choose' anything. If a Paragon option is inappropriate for my Shepard, I would avoid it. It hasn't happened, but the possibility exists.

I don't think we are really disagreeing, here.

[Lissa]

Ok, finished off the game. It's pretty good with the exception of the ending. It seems with the ending they tried to have an M Night Shamalaya moment and it really is annoying with everything that was done in the prior two MEs along with everything you're doing in ME 3 up to the final choice (anyone that has played the other two realizes there's always some final choice that plays into the ending).

So, I would recommend the game, but BioWare needs to give us a proper ending to the series then what we get in ME 3 at present.

[NiteFox]

Also, I completely disagree about seperating yourself from the character is roleplay. Roleplay is putting yourself into the position of the character and thinking as the character would think and doing as the character would do, that is the heart of roleplay. To just blindly choose an option because it's "paragon" or "renegade" is not roleplay at all. Roleplay requires you to think how the character would act given the situation, not because you get points one way or another.

Yes, you are putting yourself into the role of a character, but you must still have a filter between what you would do, as yourself, and what the character would do.

I didn't say you should 'blindly choose' anything. If a Paragon option is inappropriate for my Shepard, I would avoid it. It hasn't happened, but the possibility exists.

I don't think we are really disagreeing, here.

This is actually what's pretty good about the ME series. I'm guessing there are people who just naturally and blindly select the appropriate Paragon/Renegade selection just because they're playing a Paragon/Renegade Shep. My Infiltrator (Who has just been reunited with her M-98 Widow. Yaaaaaay!) is firmly on the Renegade side, but I've also tried to play her pragmatically ruthless or even ruthlessly pragmatic. A fully Renegade Shepard, from the very start of ME1 right up until the end isn't actually a particularly pragmatic person; a "true" Renegade may actually be better off picking the given Paragon choice to further their cause.

Per Jorner got it right in his Fallout 2 walkthrough: "You can always pretend you're role-playing a psychopath who acts nice outwardly because he knows it will suit his purposes, while all the time thinking of new ways to strangle people with their own intestines."

So that's pretty much how my Shepard is. If she doesn't know you, she'll act like a jerk to you, maybe even punch you. If she senses she might be able to get something from you, she'll play nice. She gives her crew hell when they're acting like idiots, but after surviving Torfan she is fiercely determined not to lose anyone if she can help it, and if you threaten anyone who works with or for her, she will murder you. She's a big, fierce mother bear with a headache.

Tuchanka actually changed something in that (And yes, I actually did cry at the end of Priority: Tuchanka. First time I've cried at a video game since Grim Fandango). After that whole mess she softened somewhat. Yeah, she'll still be a jerk if it suits her. She did just recently, quoting Joker, "end a war by yelling" at all involved, but she is far more likely to show genuine kindness than ruthless pragmatism.

Hmm, just noticed that a lot of mediums force character development on the characters but I haven't actually played a game that successfully allowed a player to force their own character development.

And the sideline part of the inevitable Conrad Verner encounter was perfectly satisfactory and made perfect sense. Really.

[Bolty]

From Crave Online:

The internet has won. In an open letter to all Mass Effect fans, BioWare co-founder Dr. Ray Muzyka has announced that additional content is on the way for Mass Effect 3 to flesh out the game's controversial ending(s).

"Building on their research, Exec Producer Casey Hudson and the team are hard at work on a number of game content initiatives that will help answer the questions, providing more clarity for those seeking further closure to their journey," explained Muzyka. "You’ll hear more on this in April. We’re working hard to maintain the right balance between the artistic integrity of the original story while addressing the fan feedback we’ve received. This is in addition to our existing plan to continue providing new Mass Effect content and new full games, so rest assured that your journey in the Mass Effect universe can, and will, continue."

I'm sure it'll only be another $10! Pay up.

[Thenryb]

From Crave Online:

The internet has won. In an open letter to all Mass Effect fans, BioWare co-founder Dr. Ray Muzyka has announced that additional content is on the way for Mass Effect 3 to flesh out the game's controversial ending(s).

"Building on their research, Exec Producer Casey Hudson and the team are hard at work on a number of game content initiatives that will help answer the questions, providing more clarity for those seeking further closure to their journey," explained Muzyka. "You’ll hear more on this in April. We’re working hard to maintain the right balance between the artistic integrity of the original story while addressing the fan feedback we’ve received. This is in addition to our existing plan to continue providing new Mass Effect content and new full games, so rest assured that your journey in the Mass Effect universe can, and will, continue."

I'm sure it'll only be another $10! Pay up.

Boltmeister, you were certainly right about this one as were the early and continuing Metacritic scores. I liked both Mass Effect 1 and II, but felt that neither had much replayability. I am glad I did not invest hours making different characters who made different choices, none of which will effect your characters' ultimate fate in any meaningful way. It is another Dragon Age 2 imo.

[Armin]

Well, compared to what is probably the worst ending I have encountered in my 30+ years of gaming, the end of Dragon Age 2 is downright good and fulfilling...

For me, the Mass Effect 3 "ending" actually manages to kill not only the 3rd part, but the entire trilogy.

Some good reviews for those who don't mind major spoilage:

http://calitreview.com/24673
http://www.gamefront.com/mass-effect-3-e...are-right/
http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedta...more-15395
http://angryjoeshow.com/2012/03/top-10-r...3s-ending/

In this case, really, don't trust ANY of the mainstream reviews

[Lissa]

From Crave Online:

The internet has won. In an open letter to all Mass Effect fans, BioWare co-founder Dr. Ray Muzyka has announced that additional content is on the way for Mass Effect 3 to flesh out the game's controversial ending(s).

"Building on their research, Exec Producer Casey Hudson and the team are hard at work on a number of game content initiatives that will help answer the questions, providing more clarity for those seeking further closure to their journey," explained Muzyka. "You’ll hear more on this in April. We’re working hard to maintain the right balance between the artistic integrity of the original story while addressing the fan feedback we’ve received. This is in addition to our existing plan to continue providing new Mass Effect content and new full games, so rest assured that your journey in the Mass Effect universe can, and will, continue."

I'm sure it'll only be another $10! Pay up.

Without given away much in the way of spoilers, the ending makes no sense as it stands right now. There is no reason for the ending after the choice is made. It has a GIGANTIC plot hole to how it all ends. I went into this game expecting to have Shepard die saving the galaxy, but this ending is tripe.

As I said earlier, up to the ending, it's good, it's the ending that screws everything up. BioWare should have known this backlash was coming, they really should have. But the game is definitely worth playing up to the ending, I would say that on a scale of 1 to 10, if you discount the ending, it's an 8.5 to 9, but the ending, is a -7.

And as to Thenry's comment, I whole heartly disagree on having multiple play throughs with different choices. The effect that those choices made in ME 1 and ME 2 can be huge as well as minor. The game ties everything in somehow, even down to the most minute details that you might not have thought about when you made your playthrough of ME 1 and/or ME 2.

[Thenryb]

@Lissa and you think those choices affected the ending? I know that things like saving Wrex, letting the Rachni queen live, rewriting the Geth, who you romance have an impact on the game prior to the ending, but I was unable to discern any impact on the choices you are given at the end.

[Lissa]

@Lissa and you think those choices affected the ending? I know that things like saving Wrex, letting the Rachni queen live, rewriting the Geth, who you romance have an impact on the game prior to the ending, but I was unable to discern any impact on the choices you are given at the end.

Effect the ending, no, effect the overall game, hell yes. There are definite reasons to have the multiple play throughs to see how those choices play out in the game overall. This to me is why it's important to have those multiple plays. I would definitely play through each character up to the choice, seeing how those choices up to the ending of ME 3 is what's the interesting part of the multiple play throughs.

[Taelas]

I agree; the game is certainly still worth playing, and if their additional content actually manages to assuage the concerns, the game is probably one of the three best in most people's 2012 GOTY lists.

The rest of the game isn't invalidated by the ending, especially due to the replayability with different playthroughs--but it definitely hurts. I'm on my second playthrough (with the same character--to get to max level and get the quests I missed the first time around), but I'm playing less and less the closer I get to the end.

[[wcip]Angel]

Well, compared to what is probably the worst ending I have encountered in my 30+ years of gaming, the end of Dragon Age 2 is downright good and fulfilling...

For me, the Mass Effect 3 "ending" actually manages to kill not only the 3rd part, but the entire trilogy.

Some good reviews for those who don't mind major spoilage:

http://calitreview.com/24673
http://www.gamefront.com/mass-effect-3-e...are-right/
http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedta...more-15395
http://angryjoeshow.com/2012/03/top-10-r...3s-ending/

In this case, really, don't trust ANY of the mainstream reviews

Potential spoilers for the ending:

Just spent the last hour or so reading through all these. I'm floored.

Having completed the game, I was a bit surprised by the ending. I wasn't as invested as other fans apparently were, but after having read these articles, I feel their anger.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pla...FlSjwhwHVM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pla...33tJx8iy0A

I've been following the debate over the issue of authorship in gaming (Bioshock's Levine expressed his disdain for the fans' reaction), and while I initially felt that the story of Mass Effect was Bioware's to tell and that they shouldn't cater to fans' insipid and asinine growls of entitlement, the links Armin provided has made me change my opinion.

I think it's a shame that such an impressively popular game series like Mass Effect was given such a poor treatment by the writers. I'd love to defend their profession, their craftmanship and their final product, but this ending makes no God damn sense!

What's worse is that I feel this might change videogaming and authorship for the worse. Bioware has responded to the criticism and will most likely change or add something to the ending, placating the rabid masses, who in turn will be the inspiration for others who freak out when "their" video game stories don't fit in with their preconceived notion. I shudder to think of Art by Democracy.

[Thenryb]

[


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pla...FlSjwhwHVM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pla...33tJx8iy0A

Those videos are hilarious!

[Lissa]

Well, compared to what is probably the worst ending I have encountered in my 30+ years of gaming, the end of Dragon Age 2 is downright good and fulfilling...

For me, the Mass Effect 3 "ending" actually manages to kill not only the 3rd part, but the entire trilogy.

Some good reviews for those who don't mind major spoilage:

http://calitreview.com/24673
http://www.gamefront.com/mass-effect-3-e...are-right/
http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedta...more-15395
http://angryjoeshow.com/2012/03/top-10-r...3s-ending/

In this case, really, don't trust ANY of the mainstream reviews

Potential spoilers for the ending:

Just spent the last hour or so reading through all these. I'm floored.

Having completed the game, I was a bit surprised by the ending. I wasn't as invested as other fans apparently were, but after having read these articles, I feel their anger.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pla...FlSjwhwHVM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pla...33tJx8iy0A

I've been following the debate over the issue of authorship in gaming (Bioshock's Levine expressed his disdain for the fans' reaction), and while I initially felt that the story of Mass Effect was Bioware's to tell and that they shouldn't cater to fans' insipid and asinine growls of entitlement, the links Armin provided has made me change my opinion.

I think it's a shame that such an impressively popular game series like Mass Effect was given such a poor treatment by the writers. I'd love to defend their profession, their craftmanship and their final product, but this ending makes no God damn sense!

What's worse is that I feel this might change videogaming and authorship for the worse. Bioware has responded to the criticism and will most likely change or add something to the ending, placating the rabid masses, who in turn will be the inspiration for others who freak out when "their" video game stories don't fit in with their preconceived notion. I shudder to think of Art by Democracy.

The problem is, the ending, compared to the rest of the game, seemed like they just slapped it together at the last minute. Everything up to that final choice is just awesome, it's that final choice that causes the ire the fans have. I disagree that the writer is always right. The fans have a definite say in what they're looking for and the game's quality up to that choice is top notch, it's that final choice that is completely inferior. Let's face it, consumers have a right to argue something is inferior and either get their money back (which won't happen in this case due to how the game is setup) or get the product changed due to the inferior make up (which is happening in this case). It's like BioWare played a shell game with the ending after building up such a wonderful experience to that point.

[Taelas]

They have said they will "clarify" the endings and provide more "closure" with new DLC in April. Whether it assuages the feelings of the fans is something else, but personally, I'm not holding out much hope. Keeping the current endings is, in my opinion, a mistake; but I'll probably buy the DLC anyway in the hope of getting a proper conclusion. They are also at least implying that this is completely new content.

My problem with the "artistic integrity" argument is that I don't generally see video games as art. I agree it can be art, but I feel if you want to pull off a philosophy ending, you need to support it with more than 5 minutes at the end of the game, especially when they are 5 minutes which basically breaks upon several issues that seemed to have been solved over the course of the game already.

[Jester]

Let's face it, consumers have a right to argue something is inferior and either get their money back (which won't happen in this case due to how the game is setup) or get the product changed due to the inferior make up (which is happening in this case).

I'm pretty sure the legal rule is "caveat emptor." There is no right to consumer satisfaction, only a game played between producer and consumer. Bioware has signalled they're listening and want to respond. They have no inherent obligation to do so, nor to refund your money.

-Jester

[Armin]

I'm pretty sure the legal rule is "caveat emptor." There is no right to consumer satisfaction, only a game played between producer and consumer. Bioware has signalled they're listening and want to respond. They have no inherent obligation to do so, nor to refund your money.

-Jester

Well actually, the relationship between some fans and EA/BioWare has become so poisoned, that there are some legal actions ongoing, blaming the company for false advertisement. (up to a formal complaint with the FTC)

And rumor goes, Amazon is actually taking the game back and giving out refunds based on that claim. Which actually isn't too far off, as basically everyone from BioWare ever quoted before release promised the *exact* opposite from what we actually got with this ending...

Here's a pretty comprehensive list of all the false promises. In hindsight, all the diametrically opposed statements, compared to the facts, would be hilarious, if the whole affair wasn't so sad.

http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/...x/10204263

[[wcip]Angel]

Let's face it, consumers have a right to argue something is inferior and either get their money back (which won't happen in this case due to how the game is setup) or get the product changed due to the inferior make up (which is happening in this case). It's like BioWare played a shell game with the ending after building up such a wonderful experience to that point.

To me, this doesn't hold water at all.

1. I have never heard of anyone claiming they have the right to get their money back if they're unhappy with a video game. Consider all the crappy movie cash-ins that come out every year. ME3 is a good game, but consider the torrent of crap that is published. People who buy these games have no recourse. Buyer beware.

2. Even though Bioware made some promises in regards to the ending that now seem ignored and discarded, anyone could argue that the "ending" is indeed the final level, not the final cinematic. In that case, your actions from ME1, 2 and 3 do have consequences. Hell, the "ending" could also mean the ending of the trilogy, meaning the whole of ME3 whose story is played out in light of what happened in the two games preceding it. If you check the actual statement, it wouldn't be difficult to argue that Bioware hasn't done anything wrong here. (I'm playing devil's advocate here. I fully agree the ending sucked... I'm just saying that fans have no legal recourse. The fact that Bioware is actually taking their feedback into consideration is (to me) quite generous.

3. This is where the conspiracy theorists come in. I'm not a part of the rabid fan base who blame EA for all of Bioware's shortcomings, but you could argue that EVEN IF Bioware made some promises in regards to the ending (cinematic), they were unable to follow through on that promise because of their obligations to EA. On today's episode of Invisible Walls (GT.com), Marcus Beer was quite adamant that EA had their "sticky little fingers" all over this game and its creative team. Should a developer be penalised if the publisher pushes an unfinished product through?

I bought the Mass Effect's Final Hours-app on my Ipad last night and rummaged through it this morning, and according to the interviews that Geoff Keighley conducted at Bioware, they were struggling with time, even so much that a central character needed to be cut from the original game(The Prothean) and attached as DLC. In March 2011, they pushed back the game from a November release too a March 2012 release, but even then Bioware was struggling for time. Martin Sheen was supposed to be done with his final voice-over work in August/September, but needed to be brought back for the final conversation options in November/December. The game was still in the process of being planned up until the very end.

What does this mean? Perhaps nothing. But perhaps Bioware was so stretched for time that they didn't have enough time to craft a proper set of endings for the game. This is of course impossible for us who aren't in the company to answer, but the striking gap in quality between the actual game and the way the endings were handled does lend credibility to some of these rumours and conspiracy theories.

-----------

Back to my original concern: art by democracy. I really think the suitcase in Pulp Fiction should remain a mystery, despite the rabid masses' appeal for closure. In my mind, art should be left up to the artists. If popular opinion should dictate what games we play, I doubt we would ever have had a Silent Hill 2, Shadow of the Colossus, Monkey Island, Psychonauts.. hell even a Deus Ex. The artistic vision of the auteur must come through. There is too much pandering to the lowest common denominator in modern games/cinema already. There's a reason why most movies and games these days are brainless, insulting pieces of garbage.

[Taelas]

Claiming video games as art is questionable, in my opinion, at least as a general statement. I agree that some video games can be art, but those "games" are little more than interactive novels. The story is what drives the game, not the gameplay. For example, Planescape: Torment, or Indigo Prophecy/Fahrenheit.

Mass Effect is driven by the story, yes... but that story is driven by choices. In the other games, choices are important, but not nearly to that degree. ME3 isn't an interactive novel. The plot is altered so much by the things that have come before, and the endings are all the same... whereas in the other games, the plot is more or less the same, except for the ending, which is different depending on what you did during the game.

If ME3 is art now, then it is already "art by democracy", and I don't see how altering the ending changes it.

[[wcip]Angel]

Video games is as much art as it isn't - it all has to do with how you define 'art' (obviously). What separates e.g literature from video gaming? Quality? Popularity? One is interactive, the other is not. One is malleable, the other is constant. Both are an expression of the auteur's idea or message. Is Counterstrike art? No. But what about these "cinematic" or other gaming narratives. They contain the same elements that make up other, more accepted forms of art such as novels and short stories: characters, setting, narrative techniques, turning points, climax, theme and message. Other than interactivity, what seperates gaming from other forms of art?

If we ignore this particular part of the discussion and characterise ME3 not as "art", but simply as a form of entertainment, does that mean that consumers are more entitled to force game designers into sacrificing their ***istic vision due to valid criticism?

In what other industry is this applicable? You may return a rotten piece of fruit to your neighborhood grocer or complain to your car dealership that there is a tyre missing on the Prius you ordered, but these absurd metaphors don't really apply as ME3 is perfectly functional throughout the game, i.e the game doesn't crash before or during the infamous ending; it doesn't give us a bluescreen of death, nor does it crash your computer in any way.

There is nothing rotten, ruined or missing here that refuses you to complete the game. The game is functional. It would have been a diffierent story if Bioware had released a game that was fundamentally broken and (for some reason) could not be fixed via patches. I could see the claim for a refund in that case. But there is nothing fundamentally broken about the ME3 ending. There are many issues that we may take with it, but surprise endings and disappointing narratives are all part of the game (both the proverbial game and the actual one), which is something a consumer needs to accept should he/she choose to buy a video game or any other piece of a**.

[Jester]

Well actually, the relationship between some fans and EA/BioWare has become so poisoned, that there are some legal actions ongoing, blaming the company for false advertisement. (up to a formal complaint with the FTC)

Right. We'll see how far that goes. Let me know when they get somewhere - until then, a complaint is just that, a complaint. Anyone can litigate about anything they like. The test is whether it has any legal standing, which this quite obviously doesn't.

And rumor goes, Amazon is actually taking the game back and giving out refunds based on that claim. Which actually isn't too far off, as basically everyone from BioWare ever quoted before release promised the *exact* opposite from what we actually got with this ending...

Is there any substance to this rumour? Because it seems awfully convenient, if true.

Here's a pretty comprehensive list of all the false promises. In hindsight, all the diametrically opposed statements, compared to the facts, would be hilarious, if the whole affair wasn't so sad.

http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/...x/10204263

Is this meant to be taken seriously in court? If saying your movie/art/book/game/music is good/epic/interesting when it's not is grounds for legal redress, then let me be the first to suggest the drawing and quartering of George Lucas. But I'm not getting my ten bucks back from The Phantom Menace, and the rule is still that I got what I paid for, even if I didn't like it.

-Jester