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Trying to do the Math: AC vs. -DFE?
08-29-2011, 09:44 PM
Post: #21
RE: Trying to do the Math: AC vs. -DFE?
(08-29-2011 04:44 PM)Hammerskjold Wrote:  Granted this is SP, and I used the benefit of save\reload a couple of times for Diablo himself. Hey I'm pretty rusty.

I got killed by Plaguewrath just because I was too cocky to take a step back... You're not gonna hear any comments from me Wink
Why is it ALWAYS at the stairs? Took me all of my allotted playtime to recover from that. grrrr
Weirdest part was: I was naked and wearing only 2 Rings of the Dark (yes, equipped before I went down) and those critters were at least 8 tiles away from the stairs during my first item recovery attempt. I didn't move an inch when I came down the stairs. Somehow they sensed me... I was just about to switch Search on so I could TK my stuff when they mobed me. Right on the spot where you land. That's when things got @%&@!! interesting.

Quote:Though there was a fairly annoying thing where I rolled a Warlord of Blood level instead of Lachdanan, so the stairs was locked and I could not find the Steel Tome to unlock it anywhere. Thankfully I did have a low level Warp spell, using +magic adders to counter Veil of Steel -mana. (Regular battlegear loadout I was running -9 mana.)

ooooh, luv him! Warlord of Blood is pretty much the only thing I miss about SP. I started skipping Lachdanan after the nth time. How many Veils of Steel can you wear?
Na-Krul will be easy if you can take Diablo. One Firewall in front of his door and he never even comes out. VERY rogue-friendly Wink His friends are tough though... Thankfully there are a lot of doors in the Crypt. I wouldn’t know how to manage otherwise.

Quote:re: name change and graphics change, beyond my skills. Hopefully someone with more skills and knowledge in that part can help you out.

Guess I'll check some moding forums....
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08-29-2011, 11:16 PM
Post: #22
RE: Trying to do the Math: AC vs. -DFE?
(08-29-2011 02:39 PM)lyyn Wrote:  - is it possible to change a char name without logging on to b.net (still playing HF:Fixed)
- is it possible to change the graphics of the armor type you are wearing? Not the actual picture in the inventory, but your appearance when you wear it?

Something like a character editor can probably change character names, or you could check modding websites to see if they have info about hex editing save data.

Changing the graphic of worn armor, IIRC, involves changing a flag on the base type to display light, medium, or heavy.

-Lem
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08-30-2011, 08:43 AM
Post: #23
RE: Trying to do the Math: AC vs. -DFE?
(08-29-2011 11:16 PM)LemmingofGlory Wrote:  Something like a character editor can probably change character names, or you could check modding websites to see if they have info about hex editing save data.

HA! You're right, it worked, thanks.
The one I was using to catalogue my stuff had the “change name permanently” option and I had tried that a while back, but it didn't work. It changed the name, but as soon as you left/rejoined a game the char had her old name right back.
Turns out, all I had to do was shop around for one that does what it says it can...
Right now I'm repressing the urge to start fiddling around with test chars and comparing “before” and “after” files to map out what goes where. Dissecting things IS fun, but I'm afraid that turning my perspective on Diablo from a “Game” to a “Piece of Software” will take the fun out of gameplay for me.


Changing the graphics seems to be a bit trickier. If I change only the graphic to FPM, it changes right back as soon as I leave the armour lying around and pick it up again. If I also change the base type, it morphs into a new item.
Probably should mention that we are talking about the Demonspike Coat. I found one ( two in 30 min actually Smile ) and like using it. In HF:Fixed it has exactly the same stats as in classic Diablo. The only difference is that it is Studded Leather and I enjoy the way a rogue looks in heavy armour.
What's interesting is, that it didn't morph randomly. It morphed into Demon Plate; name, unique graphic, stats and all – the only unique FPM in HF:Fixed. So now I'm wondering whether there is some kind of internal list of uniques and any item flagged as unique is treated according to whatever position on that list it matches best? Just a wild speculation...

BTW: I had no idea how cool a Demon Plate Armor looks! I REALLY have to find one of those!
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08-30-2011, 06:47 PM
Post: #24
RE: Trying to do the Math: AC vs. -DFE?
(08-30-2011 08:43 AM)lyyn Wrote:  Changing the graphics seems to be a bit trickier. If I change only the graphic to FPM, it changes right back as soon as I leave the armour lying around and pick it up again. If I also change the base type, it morphs into a new item.

Right. Changing a base type will definitely cause morphing. I was saying to change the flag that indicates whether the base type displays as light/medium/heavy when equipped. So, you'd be editing the base type data.

Quote:Probably should mention that we are talking about the Demonspike Coat. I found one ( two in 30 min actually Smile ) and like using it. In HF:Fixed it has exactly the same stats as in classic Diablo. The only difference is that it is Studded Leather and I enjoy the way a rogue looks in heavy armour.

The issue with DSC in HF is that there were 3 unique FPM, each of which had the same qlvl! Armor of Gloom and Demonspike Coat could not be found in multiplayer Hellfire. In singleplayer, the game remembers which uniques it has dropped (in that game), so it'd have to drop the first unique FPM in the unique item list before it could drop the second. So whichever of those plates is third in the unique item list, finding it requires playing a game where three unique FPM drop.

With HF:F, it was important to move these uniques around so they wouldn't interfere with each other. Armor of Gloom became qlvl 30 Gothic Plate, Demon Plate Armor remained qlvl 25 Full Plate, and Demonspike Coat became qlvl 25 Studded Leather. Making DSC "Studded Leather" was a solution that sacrificed DSC's "heavy armor" looks in favor of (1) allowing more sweet armors to drop in Hell (2) DSC becoming a worthwhile Monk armor (3) Gladiator's Bane no longer shows up from Hell bosses.

Quote:So now I'm wondering whether there is some kind of internal list of uniques and any item flagged as unique is treated according to whatever position on that list it matches best? Just a wild speculation...

Right. afaik it'll try to match a "unique" item to the closest thing it knows.

-Lem
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08-31-2011, 08:49 AM
Post: #25
RE: Trying to do the Math: AC vs. -DFE?
(08-30-2011 06:47 PM)LemmingofGlory Wrote:  Right. afaik it'll try to match a "unique" item to the closest thing it knows.

So unless I change the unique flag, it won't be stable, no matter what else I do?
Ah, well... in that case... light armor looks fine too...

Thanks for clearing that up Smile
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09-01-2011, 03:34 AM
Post: #26
RE: Trying to do the Math: AC vs. -DFE?
(08-31-2011 08:49 AM)lyyn Wrote:  So unless I change the unique flag, it won't be stable, no matter what else I do?
Ah, well... in that case... light armor looks fine too...

I'm saying that if you want Demonspike Coat to equip with the "heavy armor" look in HF:F, you'll need to change Studded Leather so that it looks like "heavy armor" when equipped. I don't think that would cause morphing, since it's not manipulating ilvls or qlvls.

-Lem
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09-01-2011, 04:48 PM
Post: #27
RE: Trying to do the Math: AC vs. -DFE?
(09-01-2011 03:34 AM)LemmingofGlory Wrote:  I'm saying that if you want Demonspike Coat to equip with the "heavy armor" look in HF:F, you'll need to change Studded Leather so that it looks like "heavy armor" when equipped. I don't think that would cause morphing, since it's not manipulating ilvls or qlvls.

Studded Leather? As in “change the whole base type so that ALL Studded Leather equippes as heavy armor”? Basically making my own personal mod?

Yeah, this is where I'm out of my depth.
But like I said; light armor looks ok too, and if I want a cooler look, I'll just have to go and find myself one of those great looking Demon Plates.

Actually, I couldn’t help myself and tried to google the kind of information/internals I would need. I found some tools for mod-making but only dead links to the information they are based on.
Guess I'm a decade to late...

Thanks for helping Smile
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09-01-2011, 07:48 PM
Post: #28
RE: Trying to do the Math: AC vs. -DFE?
(09-01-2011 04:48 PM)lyyn Wrote:  Studded Leather? As in “change the whole base type so that ALL Studded Leather equippes as heavy armor”? Basically making my own personal mod?

Yeah, you'd be either modifying the exe or making a dat and running it.

Quote:Actually, I couldn’t help myself and tried to google the kind of information/internals I would need. I found some tools for mod-making but only dead links to the information they are based on.

I don't remember all of the resources that I used, but I think Zamal and Zenda's information was the most helpful for Hellfire data. I don't know if they still have up all of their modmaking resources.

-Lem
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09-05-2011, 06:51 PM
Post: #29
RE: Trying to do the Math: AC vs. -DFE?
(09-01-2011 07:48 PM)LemmingofGlory Wrote:  I don't remember all of the resources that I used, but I think Zamal and Zenda's information was the most helpful for Hellfire data. I don't know if they still have up all of their modmaking resources.

Yay! They still do! At least they still had enough for me to solve my little problem.
The names helped me find all I needed
It worked, no morphing & better look Smile
I'll admit, that it's a bit overkill just because I prefer the heavy armour look, but fun anyway...
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09-07-2011, 04:16 PM
Post: #30
Wirtistopheles
please excuse me for bugging you, it's just that you seem to be the right guy to ask for this.
When I was looking for infos on moding – which is your fault anyway Tongue – I came across Wirtistopheles.
It looks like a lot of fun, so I'd love to try it. Sadly my Google-fu failed me and I can't find the files I need.
I would greatly appreciate any help like still active links, files, terms to google for...

thanks & lg,
lyyn
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09-09-2011, 05:41 PM
Post: #31
RE: Trying to do the Math: AC vs. -DFE?
I remember playing that when I was "helping" Lemming beta test Hellfire-Fixed. I bet it is lost on his old computer which probably got fried when he allowed the "Antique Popsicle" to melt into the motherboard. Ah, the "unbearable lemmingness of Lemming" (credit for this phrase goes to Hammerskjold) Smile
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09-09-2011, 07:43 PM
Post: #32
RE: Trying to do the Math: AC vs. -DFE?
(09-09-2011 05:41 PM)Thenryb Wrote:  I remember playing that when I was "helping" Lemming beta test Hellfire-Fixed. I bet it is lost on his old computer which probably got fried when he allowed the "Antique Popsicle" to melt into the motherboard. Ah, the "unbearable lemmingness of Lemming" (credit for this phrase goes to Hammerskjold) Smile

:pruuust:
(=somewhere between ROTFL and :snorting:, kind of uncomfortable when I'm just trying to drink tea but worth it Wink )

alright, I take that back... I'm in no position to snigger. I can't count the number of keyboards I have ruined in similar ways.

Anyway, thanks for that phrase Smile
I was just about to edit my post anyway to say that I found the files (YAY Wayback Machine!). I just played it and it's FUN.
I did feel a little bad after killing Wirt though... he kind of grew on me. Yesterday I bought a Godly Cap from him. Utterly useless, of course, but there was no way I could pass that by.

What I noticed: After killing Wirt, I just kept going on and went down the stairs to hell. I didn't think you're “supposed” to do that, since the entrance in town was blocked and I half expected the game to crash at every new level, but it actually worked. New monsters and new “Diablo”!
I KNEW it! There IS a secret Cow Level Wink
In spite of this great conspiracy to keep that secret level … well... secret, and in spite of all the web sites denying the truth... it exists... Muahhaha
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09-10-2011, 03:15 AM
Post: #33
RE: Trying to do the Math: AC vs. -DFE?
(09-09-2011 07:43 PM)lyyn Wrote:  :pruuust:
(=somewhere between ROTFL and :snorting:, kind of uncomfortable when I'm just trying to drink tea but worth it Wink )

"the unbearable lemmingness of Lemming" is pretty on-the-nose. Until two weeks ago, I'd completely forgotten about "Wirtistopheles", and now I kinda wanna play it - almost as if I hadn't before.

Quote:What I noticed: After killing Wirt, I just kept going on and went down the stairs to hell. I didn't think you're “supposed” to do that, since the entrance in town was blocked and I half expected the game to crash at every new level, but it actually worked. New monsters and new “Diablo”! I KNEW it! There IS a secret Cow Level Wink

And I completely forgot I did that. I do remember it being an easter egg, but I don't recall if it was ever brought to light.

As it happens, Thenryb is correct. All my modmaking notes and files are completely lost as of, say, 2005. I still have the harddrive; I've been meaning to try and recover data from it, but I don't actually know if it's possible. And being busy/lazy, I've not looked into it. I should, I should, I should...

-Lem
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09-10-2011, 02:56 PM
Post: #34
RE: Trying to do the Math: AC vs. -DFE?
(09-09-2011 05:41 PM)Thenryb Wrote:  I remember playing that when I was "helping" Lemming beta test Hellfire-Fixed. I bet it is lost on his old computer which probably got fried when he allowed the "Antique Popsicle" to melt into the motherboard. Ah, the "unbearable lemmingness of Lemming" (credit for this phrase goes to Hammerskjold) Smile

Wow those brought back memories, thanks Thenryb. I think I remember playing possibly an early version of Wirtistopheles as well, but unfortunately I don't know if I have the files either. The computer it was on is kinda on it's last legs as well.

Maybe it's me getting older\grumpier, but I tried playing D1 classic again. I got as far as clvl 20 Rogue (offline multi) before I just couldn't do it anymore, I'm too spoiled by HF jog in town feature.

Speaking of HF:F again though, do any of you guys know if the other MS bug was fixed? The one where higher level MShield would actually decrease the 33% Damage Reduction? IIRC this was never fixed in the official sierra 1.01 version.

I got 2 bards to 'field test' it but unfortunately my results are too unreliable.
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09-10-2011, 05:37 PM (This post was last modified: 09-10-2011 05:51 PM by lyyn.)
Post: #35
RE: Trying to do the Math: AC vs. -DFE?
(09-10-2011 03:15 AM)LemmingofGlory Wrote:  And I completely forgot I did that. I do remember it being an easter egg, but I don't recall if it was ever brought to light.

Oops. I thought I was spilling some already very old and outdated beans there. My apologies if this was still news to someone.
My only excuse is, that I was having a lot of fun, so my mouth, ahem, fingers, just ran off. Sorry. That kind of stuff tends to happen to me Blush. Well, that, and my own looong trail of ruined hardware.
I'm not exactly superstitious but sometimes I'm half convinced that I can cause a hard drive to fail by my mere presence. One drive I lost has some irreplaceable personal videos on it, so I actually looked into services offering data recovery. The problem is that nobody uses them, unless they really really want/need their data recovered. So, of course, they charge outrageous fees targeted at companys, not consumers. I'm still hoping that it will get more reasonably priced over time.

(09-10-2011 02:56 PM)Hammerskjold Wrote:  Maybe it's me getting older\grumpier, but I tried playing D1 classic again. I got as far as clvl 20 Rogue (offline multi) before I just couldn't do it anymore, I'm too spoiled by HF jog in town feature.

Well, then we both seem to be old grouches Tongue, because lack of jog and - almost more importantly – Search, makes going back to CD annoying for me too.
Besides... No Wirtistopheles to kill... Naaah...
Speaking of which; since nobody seems to have the files:
http://web.archive.org/web/2007101113412...g/wirt.zip

(09-10-2011 02:56 PM)Hammerskjold Wrote:  Speaking of HF:F again though, do any of you guys know if the other MS bug was fixed? The one where higher level MShield would actually decrease the 33% Damage Reduction?

I've been asking myself the same question.
The readme only says “Two MS-related bugs fixed”. Did your tests indicate anything? Yes, I know, disclaimer.. unreliable... but still; did your results lean in one direction? Or did unreliable mean inconclusive?

Edit:
On second thought, inconclusive is ok too. It might mean that at least the damage doesn't increase. I hit a lot of Enchanted Shrines so while MS functioning as it should would be nice, I would happily settle for "stays constant"
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09-10-2011, 06:31 PM
Post: #36
RE: Trying to do the Math: AC vs. -DFE?
(09-10-2011 05:37 PM)lyyn Wrote:  Oops. I thought I was spilling some already very old and outdated beans there. My apologies if this was still news to someone.

Actually, I hoped that it would eventually be discovered and people might say, "Oh snap, a cow level!" and it'd drum up interest in what is probably most commonly viewed as weird mod. But who doesn't want to kill Wirt?

Quote:The readme only says “Two MS-related bugs fixed”. Did your tests indicate anything? Yes, I know, disclaimer.. unreliable... but still; did your results lean in one direction? Or did unreliable mean inconclusive?

Heh. They would have most likely been fixes provided by Z&Z or by Kp629. So if Z&Z have MS bug fixes listed, it's probably one of those. Otherwise, I'd definitely have to check my notes... on that old harddrive.

-Lem
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09-10-2011, 10:35 PM
Post: #37
RE: Trying to do the Math: AC vs. -DFE?
(09-10-2011 06:31 PM)LemmingofGlory Wrote:  I hoped that it would eventually be discovered and people might say, "Oh snap, a cow level!" and it'd drum up interest in what is probably most commonly viewed as weird mod. But who doesn't want to kill Wirt?

It seems “eventually” you were right Smile
Hear that sound? That's me trying to drum....
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09-11-2011, 09:15 AM
Post: #38
RE: Trying to do the Math: AC vs. -DFE?
(09-10-2011 05:37 PM)lyyn Wrote:  I've been asking myself the same question.
The readme only says “Two MS-related bugs fixed”. Did your tests indicate anything? Yes, I know, disclaimer.. unreliable... but still; did your results lean in one direction? Or did unreliable mean inconclusive?

Kinda both I guess. By that I mean I don't have the modding\testing tools to say, set a monster damage to 10-10, to make it more consistent and easier to see. And I don't have the time or the interest to do a 'statismagician' approved tests in the hundreds and thousands. Not that this is one of those cases where it needs hundreds of tests I think anyway.

The 2 bards I have are very similar, both same clvl. One has MS at slvl 14 (12 natural, 14 with Thinking Cap), one at slvl 1. (I think the magic number for the bug was slvl 7 and above.) Both informally tested at normal and hell mode. And after some more playing around, it does seem to be fixed at least to my own eye.

I couldn't say with absolute 100% certainty, but if there is any differences it seems to be very small. As in literally, 1 point of damage difference, and that could very well be due to damage variables and not the slvl MS bug.

But from my own very informal finding, it does seem to be fixed.

On mods, Z&Z's The Dark is also quite good from what I hear. I had it somewhere in the old comp, but I never made it past church level due to time constraints. But The Dark and HFF is IMO the top 2 reason to buy a Hellfire disc.

Though if I had the skill to mod HF\D1, the first thing I would try to do is change the Warrior's swing to built in Speed\haste. The Sorceror has the fastest cast speed, Rogues fastest bow speed, yet most Warriors need a to hit+ weapon and speed\haste weapon, or preferably a to hit+speed in the same weapon. The poor guy needs a break in the gear dependence department IMO.

But I'm just kvetching out loud. At least in HF finding a Shirotachi is doable.
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09-11-2011, 10:57 AM
Post: #39
RE: Trying to do the Math: AC vs. -DFE?
(09-10-2011 02:56 PM)Hammerskjold Wrote:  Speaking of HF:F again though, do any of you guys know if the other MS bug was fixed? The one where higher level MShield would actually decrease the 33% Damage Reduction? IIRC this was never fixed in the official sierra 1.01 version.

I got 2 bards to 'field test' it but unfortunately my results are too unreliable.

Now I am reminded about Blizzard's backwards bug bashing. Let's "fix" mana shield by making it even more powerful at high levels... brilliant! Although they were probably justified in that choice. The way they "fixed" monster HP on higher difficulties was such a wasted opportunity it is a crime. The listed HP would have been far more balanced than the actual ones they kept. Actually Hellfire got that one right, didn't it? No fallen ones running around in hell difficulty with 20 hp?
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09-11-2011, 02:11 PM (This post was last modified: 09-11-2011 04:40 PM by Hammerskjold.)
Post: #40
RE: Trying to do the Math: AC vs. -DFE?
(09-11-2011 10:57 AM)Nystul Wrote:  Now I am reminded about Blizzard's backwards bug bashing. Let's "fix" mana shield by making it even more powerful at high levels... brilliant! Although they were probably justified in that choice. The way they "fixed" monster HP on higher difficulties was such a wasted opportunity it is a crime. The listed HP would have been far more balanced than the actual ones they kept. Actually Hellfire got that one right, didn't it? No fallen ones running around in hell difficulty with 20 hp?

That one I'm not sure. Even if it was though, iirc the AC wraparound bug was still there. While this was kinda fun at times, ie you can use a plain speed\haste weapon to hit almost anything. It became ridicilous.

And I'm a guy who thinks a lowered itemz\to hit dependence on Warriors are a good thing. But this was just too much.

edited addition: In vanilla, unfixed HF this was true. HF:F uses the corrected monster HP values, and no more AC wraparound bug.
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