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Rogue Coop 101?
08-16-2011, 02:52 PM
Post: #1
Rogue Coop 101?
(08-15-2011 08:27 PM)Nystul Wrote:  With regards to coop, I'd rather having a rogue always shooting down the same wall than a rogue who is shooting at moving monsters. Diablo has a dirty little secret when it comes to that. Monster isn't always the same place on my screen as it is on yours.

(08-15-2011 11:02 PM)--Pete Wrote:  We often compared screens and mobs were often in quite different positions on the two computers. However, it really wasn't all that bad, since what you hit with your ranged attacks was determined on your computer.

And any rogue who targets moving mobs in a coop game should be ostracized. Wink

(08-16-2011 12:52 AM)Hammerskjold Wrote:  Iirc there was some issue in co-op MP with that, but if you're not co-op'ing that ain't a problem

OK, my curiosity is piqued, I’m officially confused but interested.
I need Rogue Coop 101.

I get the part where shooting your partner is a bad idea (although I'm sure that depends on the circumstances Wink ), but no monsters? No mob that is trying to kill me?
What/How DOES a rogue shoot in coop? And when?

So far I gather that sticking to a prearranged line/area of fire helps. And I guess no rapid fire otherwise?
I also see, that if I sweep a corridor, my partner should probably be behind me Wink
What happens if we are attacked by more than 2 monsters? Ambushed?

How much arranging tactics goes on beforehand? Are there any agreed on rules of thumb, or is it purely a matter of personal style and player mix?
If so, how did you even get through the pre-game stuff before Skype?


lg,
lyyn
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08-16-2011, 04:30 PM
Post: #2
RE: Rogue Coop 101?
I try to use present tense for you. Tongue

For a typical game there is no discussion of tactics. Usually you are playing in an area where each character would be able to survive solo, so you just need to avoid screwing each other up. The best coop partners are reliable and rather predictable. If you stay on one side of your partners and focus your fire on the enemies on your side, you shouldn't be hitting your partners very often (unless they are idiots). If you shoot diagonally across the corridor at enemies on the other side, the warrior gets hit by arrows when he engages the enemy or it engages him. Stonecurse comes in handy if there are too many enemies or someone gets in trouble. It's pretty much just common sense playing.

The big exception in my experience is Ironman games. Those are a lot more rigid with tactically preplanned battles.
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08-16-2011, 04:51 PM
Post: #3
RE: Rogue Coop 101?
(08-16-2011 04:30 PM)Nystul Wrote:  I try to use present tense for you. Tongue

[...] It's pretty much just common sense playing.


Tongue


Yep, that DOES sound like common sense.
*whew* For a moment there I was getting the impression, that there was some kind of black science to it.
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08-17-2011, 01:15 AM
Post: #4
RE: Rogue Coop 101?
It helps if you are in the same room so you can hear the poor warrior's cries of "Ow ow ow OW OW!" There were three of us who played together (rogue, warrior, mage) and we liked to thin critters out through doorways. Even having me stand on the left of the door, the warrior in the middle and the mage on the right, the game didn't always have us in those positions on everyone's screens. We liked to work as a team rather than individuals who were just working towards a common goal, but the goofy positioning errors sometimes made that difficult to do. =) At least we were all friends so my stray arrows didn't get me into too much trouble. Although, if I'm already in position and firing a specific direction, the warrior does have to learn to STAY OUT OF MY LINE OF FIRE. The other times were my fault though and lazy play. =)

Intolerant monkey.
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08-17-2011, 01:53 PM
Post: #5
RE: Rogue Coop 101?
(08-17-2011 01:15 AM)Treesh Wrote:  It helps if you are in the same room so you can hear the poor warrior's cries of "Ow ow ow OW OW!" There were three of us who played together (rogue, warrior, mage) and we liked to thin critters out through doorways. Even having me stand on the left of the door, the warrior in the middle and the mage on the right, the game didn't always have us in those positions on everyone's screens. We liked to work as a team rather than individuals who were just working towards a common goal, but the goofy positioning errors sometimes made that difficult to do. =) At least we were all friends so my stray arrows didn't get me into too much trouble. Although, if I'm already in position and firing a specific direction, the warrior does have to learn to STAY OUT OF MY LINE OF FIRE. The other times were my fault though and lazy play. =)


a-HA, so they DO deserve it once in a while Wink

But first displaced Monsters... and now the partners are showing up all willy-nilly on different spots for each player?
Maybe I was too hasty in my “ok, sounds reasonable” post above.
Which brings me back to one of the original questions: How DO you coordinate? Or am I getting an overly dramatic impression here and this is a fluke which only happens few and far between?
Does it only happen on Battlenet? Or does it happen with IPX / direct /... too?

Up until now, I had zero interest in playing online. Actually, that’s only half the truth. Worse: Pretty much most of what I read here and on other sites made me VERY wary of venturing out there. Sounds like a sure way to catch a lot of grief and/or aggravation. Both of which I don't need. I play to unwind if I can catch an hour or two, not to get riled up.

BUT, you guys got me at my most vulnerable point:
Now I'm too curious not to go...
Hearing and asking about something just doesn’t cut it.

But don't be surprised if I come back tomorrow bitching and whining Wink

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lyyn
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08-17-2011, 08:52 PM
Post: #6
RE: Rogue Coop 101?
(08-17-2011 01:53 PM)lyyn Wrote:  But first displaced Monsters... and now the partners are showing up all willy-nilly on different spots for each player?

Normally, a player character's position is pretty well synchronised. Only when someone teleports or moves into a location that's occupied by a monster on other screens, their position may be off a tile, and it's immediately corrected when they take another step. A mismatch in monster positions is much more common, but it can be countered as Nystul described: use shift to shoot along walls, and don't hold your cursor over a monster when doing so.

Let me try to explain how that works. If you shoot while pointing directly at a monster (even while using shift), that action will be communicated as a shot from your position towards the monster's position. If that monster happens to be somewhere else for others (moving or not), those others will see your arrows fly to their location of that monster, which might well be in a different direction. So, since you don't really know where your arrows fly on their screen, you might be hitting someone you don't want to hit, without knowing. However, if you shoot without having a monster at your cursor (using shift), the shot will be communicated as going towards a specific dungeon location, given in coordinates. This way, the arrows will fly the same for anyone in the game. This will also make it easier for your coop partner to stay out of your line of fire, since they will now be able to tell where your arrows will go, just by knowing where you are. When all players in a game understand this mechanism, it's not uncommon to finish games without any friendly fire at all.

For example, going by this knowledge, for my coop partners and me a typical setup against non-overwhelming odds is something like the following:

/ wall
+ tile
M Monster
W Warrior
R Rogue
x cursor position

///////////////////////////////////
MMM++++++++W+++++++++++
MM+++++++++++++++xR+++++ <- best Rogue spot against crowds
M+++++++++++++++++++++++
+++++++++++++x++++++++++
++++++++++++++R+++++++++ <- best Rogue spot against single monsters
++++++++++++++++++++++++

Another great benefit of this 'non-aiming' fire is that works very well with knockback on your bow: since you're not targetting, there is no need to re-aquire a target.

(08-17-2011 01:53 PM)lyyn Wrote:  How DO you coordinate?

By knowing what the other(s) will do. Once you make a habit of using a setup like above, there is no longer much need for communication. The warrior knows he must get to the wall and stay there, the rogue knows where to stand and how to shoot. We only tend to discuss tactics in-game for dangerous (boss-) packs, when we know in advance about their whereabouts. Even then, it usually comes down to picking a spot and type of setup to use (the one above is good against melee, but not so against ranged attackers, for example).
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08-17-2011, 11:01 PM
Post: #7
RE: Rogue Coop 101?
(08-17-2011 01:53 PM)lyyn Wrote:  Up until now, I had zero interest in playing online. Actually, that’s only half the truth. Worse: Pretty much most of what I read here and on other sites made me VERY wary of venturing out there. Sounds like a sure way to catch a lot of grief and/or aggravation. Both of which I don't need. I play to unwind if I can catch an hour or two, not to get riled up.

I've played quite a bit in public games before making the jump onto to something more organized, and at least from my own experience.
I've probably met only 5 (at most) players that I'd be willing to play with again. That's out of my whole time playing in public.

IMO this isn't necessarily b.net's fault alone. Personally I subscribe more to the human nature aspect as well.

In any case if you want to save yourself the aggravation of trying to find pearls among the swath of swines that is public B.net. You might be better off trying to setting up something in the "Meet and Greet" thread here.

There may still be some D1 'Variant Scum' over at the Realms Beyond Diablo forum. I personally played some great games with people like Layil, ThenryB, and AoM a long time ago.

There was a few (emphasis on few) players that was playing D1 over at the Amazon Basin, in the D2 section. Though the D2 section is understandably, filled with D2 LoD players. And the upcoming D3.

So again, your best bet might be trying to set up something here.

http://www.lurkerlounge.com/forums/thread-10691.html

ps. There was, or still is technically the DSF Community forum. http://thedsfcommunity.yuku.com/directory
Which was the continuation of the discontinued by blizzard Diablo Strategy Forum. It was created and maintained by a dedicated team of D1 fans. Unfortunately it seems deserted at this time. Fortunately, some of those players and fans basically migrated here.

/..and that will bring us back! To do! Do! Do, Do! Doe! A Deer! A female Deer!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvph0eSb-Hg
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08-17-2011, 11:28 PM
Post: #8
RE: Rogue Coop 101?
(08-17-2011 01:53 PM)lyyn Wrote:  But first displaced Monsters... and now the partners are showing up all willy-nilly on different spots for each player?
Maybe I was too hasty in my “ok, sounds reasonable” post above.
Which brings me back to one of the original questions: How DO you coordinate? Or am I getting an overly dramatic impression here and this is a fluke which only happens few and far between?
Does it only happen on Battlenet? Or does it happen with IPX / direct /... too?

I didn't play D1 on Bnet, only LAN games, so it's not just a Bnet issue. And no, it wasn't terribly often, although it happened more frequently with the three of us playing rather than just two. Pretty much stick to firing in a specific direction instead of actually aiming at critters and that will take care of the worst of the issues.

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08-18-2011, 08:11 AM
Post: #9
RE: Rogue Coop 101?
(08-17-2011 01:53 PM)lyyn Wrote:  Up until now, I had zero interest in playing online. Actually, that’s only half the truth. Worse: Pretty much most of what I read here and on other sites made me VERY wary of venturing out there. Sounds like a sure way to catch a lot of grief and/or aggravation. Both of which I don't need. I play to unwind if I can catch an hour or two, not to get riled up.

The online experience with people you can trust is quite worthwhile in my opinion. It is quite pleasing to progress through the levels using teamwork to cover each other's weaknesses (especially if your team is using some odd equipment setups to make things challenging).

Like others have mentioned earlier, once all team members have a "meeting of the minds", there is very little need to communicate. Hotkeys f9 through to f12 have pre defined messages that you can use to quickly notify team members. There is a little text document in the diablo directory where you can change the content of these messages.

If you are looking to find decent people to play with on bnet, you can visit this site. Of course it goes without saying that you should get to know the people before deciding to play with them. Keep in mind that this site condones the use of 3rd party programs such as "scanners" and "item savers" (You can ask many knowledgable lurkers here about those subjects).

http://freshmeat-blog.de.tl/
and the forum http://freshmeat.freeforums.org/portal.php

To keep things shorts, its is possible to derive some enjoyment from public games (as long as you don't use a character with good gear). However, more often than not you will have to put a little effort into finding out if they are trustworthy. Even if they are friendly enough, I have entered enough public games to know that its rare to come by good teamwork.

In the USwest gateway, channel diablo usa-1, you will often see a bot which allows you to search for public games. However you will need to message the bot owner in order to get permission to use the function. I sometimes explore public games simply to observe the behaviour of other players. I guess I'm just a very curious guy (or have a deathwish).
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08-18-2011, 10:25 AM (This post was last modified: 08-18-2011 10:27 AM by lyyn.)
Post: #10
RE: Rogue Coop 101?
Well, went online. It was pretty much a non event. I jumped around gateways/channels and didn't find a public game. I only found one active chat, eavesdropped a bit, regretted I understood the language, and enjoyed a nice quiet church game by myself.

Next, I'm going to lurk around in the channels / forums you suggested and start a new, better prepared try soon.
Thanks for all the links and tips. I'm not quoting each one, but I will try them Smile, I'll keep you posted.

(08-18-2011 08:11 AM)maht1 Wrote:  Keep in mind that this site condones the use of 3rd party programs such as "scanners" and "item savers" (You can ask many knowledgeable lurkers here about those subjects).

ok, I know that now I'm really in for it, but... so do I, for muling at least.
Everybody seems to have his thing/variant that keeps (kept Tongue ) them interested. Me? I collect. You can call it the “hunter and gatherer” or the “museum” style Wink. I developed this ambition to have one of everything in the game and quickly realized that there is no other viable way of keeping and cataloguing stuff. At least none that I know of... educate me?
I DON'T use trainers to cheat, change my stats, or duplicate items, with 2 exceptions.
- I tried to change a too stupid name once... didn't work anyway.
- When I feel like playing the Crypt, I import the cathedral map. NOBODY who designs a dungeon like the Hive gets to force me to actually play it. (Green environment with a yellow map? Alien/Insect feeling in a gothic game? Sheesh. Doesn't anybody actually play this before they decide “ok, let's start selling it”?)

There... that's my confession... have at it *ducks*

(08-17-2011 08:52 PM)Zenda Wrote:  the one above is good against melee, but not so against ranged attackers, for example

Actually my rogue only knows two tactics against ranged attackers if they are activated and not killed by sweeping the dark (I'm always happy when I find Deathspits corpse without ever having laid eyes on him). Luring them to her (preferable) and rushing (if I have the resists or they won't budge). Well, those and casting 15 guardians (aren’t they great?) but not all my chars have that option...
Are there alternatives?

(08-17-2011 11:01 PM)Hammerskjold Wrote:  I've played quite a bit in public games before making the jump onto to something more organized, and at least from my own experience.
I've probably met only 5 (at most) players that I'd be willing to play with again. That's out of my whole time playing in public.

IMO this isn't necessarily b.net's fault alone. Personally I subscribe more to the human nature aspect as well.

I just love meeting a fellow optimist Wink
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08-18-2011, 12:42 PM
Post: #11
RE: Rogue Coop 101?
(08-18-2011 08:11 AM)maht1 Wrote:  Like others have mentioned earlier, once all team members have a "meeting of the minds", there is very little need to communicate. Hotkeys f9 through to f12 have pre defined messages that you can use to quickly notify team members. There is a little text document in the diablo directory where you can change the content of these messages.

That reminds me of my favorite custom message hotkey: "Diablo v1.07". I'd use it to convince annoying spammers in pubbie games that pressing v was the fastest way to spam other players. The number of times it worked made it worthwhile.

-Lem
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08-18-2011, 01:15 PM
Post: #12
RE: Rogue Coop 101?
(08-18-2011 10:25 AM)lyyn Wrote:  Well, went online. It was pretty much a non event. I jumped around gateways/channels and didn't find a public game. I only found one active chat, eavesdropped a bit, regretted I understood the language, and enjoyed a nice quiet church game by myself.

Next, I'm going to lurk around in the channels / forums you suggested and start a new, better prepared try soon.
Thanks for all the links and tips. I'm not quoting each one, but I will try them Smile, I'll keep you posted.

(08-18-2011 08:11 AM)maht1 Wrote:  Keep in mind that this site condones the use of 3rd party programs such as "scanners" and "item savers" (You can ask many knowledgeable lurkers here about those subjects).

ok, I know that now I'm really in for it, but... so do I, for muling at least.
Everybody seems to have his thing/variant that keeps (kept Tongue ) them interested. Me? I collect. You can call it the “hunter and gatherer” or the “museum” style Wink. I developed this ambition to have one of everything in the game and quickly realized that there is no other viable way of keeping and cataloguing stuff. At least none that I know of... educate me?
I DON'T use trainers to cheat, change my stats, or duplicate items, with 2 exceptions.
- I tried to change a too stupid name once... didn't work anyway.
- When I feel like playing the Crypt, I import the cathedral map. NOBODY who designs a dungeon like the Hive gets to force me to actually play it. (Green environment with a yellow map? Alien/Insect feeling in a gothic game? Sheesh. Doesn't anybody actually play this before they decide “ok, let's start selling it”?)

There... that's my confession... have at it *ducks*

[/quote]

I have nothing against those who use trainers, scanners, other random 3rd party program etc. The same for anyone who chooses to use the duplication bug or some other questionable thing that can be used in the game. Rather than use fuzzy terms such as "legit", I say that people simply play by rules that they have justified. For me, I simply observe how a person justifies the way they play diablo and choose whether I play or not play with them, and to what extent.

So you use an "item saver" to store items away. I know a few friends who do the same thing. You have justified it because creating multitudes of mules is not very good for cataloguing the items in an efficient manner. I realise that it is annoying that you can't transfer items between your characters unless you have a friend who will keep a game open.

For me, I cannot justify such a tool mainly because the normal means to make the transfer is through coop play (another reason to play online). There are questionable uses such as muling an item away when you are playing solo and have no room to carry it on the character. Even loading an item into a game without having to leave the game first does not seem right to me.

A similar example is using a game search bot to show the full game listing. If you were to attempt this through non 3rd party means you would need a maximum of 12 characters each with specific lvl ranges. It is a very tedious way of getting the full listing if you were to attempt this, not to mention having like 8/10 of your multiplayer save slots taken up by dedicated game searcher characters.

In the item saver case, you could argue you would sooner or later coop with someone and have had the option to do mule items, hence the item saver makes the process more smoother. In the search bot case, you could argue you would sooner or later have made characters in those level ranges, and that you can join the games even if they dont show up. I probably have skipped some details, but in short I have justified to myself use of the game searching bot but not item savers.

I have never played hellfire, so i do not know how the crypt is structured. From diablo I know that each dungeon section has a unique layout. More often than not the layout has ramifications on the strategies or tactics that you use when clearing it out. Just compare the church and caves, it is quite obvious.

If the crypt is structured significantly different from the church (graphics not withstanding), then you may be making it easier or harder than the dungeon was actually intended. However, since hellfire is only single player it doesn't really matter so much.

Just of interest, your description of the crypt makes it sound like the nesting place in the movie "Aliens" (one of my favorite movies btw). Greenish environment with an alien/insectish feeling? Looks like the perfect place to get ambushed by xenomorphs. If the dungeon had the same feel as in the movie, I reckon it would be pretty cool. However, I will probably be disappointed once i see a screenshot.
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08-18-2011, 02:07 PM (This post was last modified: 08-18-2011 02:25 PM by lyyn.)
Post: #13
RE: Rogue Coop 101?
(08-18-2011 01:15 PM)maht1 Wrote:  Just of interest, your description of the crypt makes it sound like the nesting place in the movie "Aliens" (one of my favorite movies btw). Greenish environment with an alien/insectish feeling? Looks like the perfect place to get ambushed by xenomorphs. If the dungeon had the same feel as in the movie, I reckon it would be pretty cool. However, I will probably be disappointed once i see a screenshot.

Interested?

Voila: The Hive (difficulty is supposed to be like Caves, the map-layout defiantly is, but my personal feeling: a little easier)

- s. att.

I am an Alien fan myself, but in Diablo?

The problem is, you have to play 4 levels of this to get the Cathedral Map.

Only (afaik?) with that Map can you open up 4 VERY cool levels of Crypt (kind of like Hell with Na-Krull as boss on Level 4 in his own Chamber, it has tough monsters but again to me it feels a little easier because of a church-like layout).

This is an exception to all other sections that you can enter independently given the right character level.


(08-18-2011 01:15 PM)maht1 Wrote:  In the item saver case, you could argue you would sooner or later coop with someone and have had the option to do mule items, hence the item saver makes the process more smoother. In the search bot case, you could argue you would sooner or later have made characters in those level ranges, and that you can join the games even if they dont show up. I probably have skipped some details, but in short I have justified to myself use of the game searching bot but not item savers.

Actually I do use mules. They carry whatever excess gear the char is saving / not using. Also I find them just standing around an additional safety measure against item loss through crash.
The Saver is just for collecting. I DO differentiate between active and non active (=available) gear.
On a related note: Just found my first Drake Jewel ever (yay). Not that anybody is going to use it. The older chars don't want it and the younger ones aren’t getting it, but speaking as a collector: YAY Smile

lg,
lyyn

PS: search bot?


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08-18-2011, 11:43 PM
Post: #14
RE: Rogue Coop 101?
(08-18-2011 10:25 AM)lyyn Wrote:  - When I feel like playing the Crypt, I import the cathedral map. NOBODY who designs a dungeon like the Hive gets to force me to actually play it. (Green environment with a yellow map? Alien/Insect feeling in a gothic game? Sheesh. Doesn't anybody actually play this before they decide “ok, let's start selling it”?)

If your Hellfire characters are multiplayer, I think you should be able to click on the Crypt and enter it even if it appears closed. And I concur that the Hive is aesthetically poorly designed. It feels more like a Duke 3D level than a Diablo level.

-Lem
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08-19-2011, 12:44 AM
Post: #15
RE: Rogue Coop 101?
(08-18-2011 10:25 AM)lyyn Wrote:  Well, went online. It was pretty much a non event. I jumped around gateways/channels and didn't find a public game. I only found one active chat, eavesdropped a bit, regretted I understood the language, and enjoyed a nice quiet church game by myself.

Yeah unfortunately D1 is ancient by video game standard. And this medium and industry doesn't really appreciate longevity. There's exception, but in general this is the rule I've seen. (Without this becoming a dead horse beating, I'm not talking about companies making new products etc.)

re: item savers\backups.

I'm personally in the camp that it's not the program, but how you use it kind of deal.

Quote:- When I feel like playing the Crypt, I import the cathedral map. NOBODY who designs a dungeon like the Hive gets to force me to actually play it. (Green environment with a yellow map? Alien/Insect feeling in a gothic game? Sheesh. Doesn't anybody actually play this before they decide “ok, let's start selling it”?)

OMG! I am so reporting you to the legit police!!11
I keed I keed. The Hive level is IMO, pretty close to universally hated.
It sticks out in such a bad way.

And yes, many people had the same suspicion as you about the lack of play testing before it was shuffled out the door.

IIRC I still did play the Hive level occasionally, but I hated that I was forced to do so if I want access to the Crypt.

I think LoG is right though that in multi (I think same in multi-offline) it's treated just like the rest of the level to clvl barrier. That is if your clvl meets the height requirement, you're allowed entry.
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08-19-2011, 12:59 AM
Post: #16
RE: Rogue Coop 101?
(08-19-2011 12:44 AM)Hammerskjold Wrote:  I think LoG is right though that in multi (I think same in multi-offline) it's treated just like the rest of the level to clvl barrier. That is if your clvl meets the height requirement, you're allowed entry.

Yup, off-line multi is still multi. I'm not sure that the Crypt has a clvl barrier; the game may assume if you're there, you've finished Hive. On this my memory is more hazy.

-Lem
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08-19-2011, 01:48 AM
Post: #17
RE: Rogue Coop 101?
(08-19-2011 12:59 AM)LemmingofGlory Wrote:  Yup, off-line multi is still multi. I'm not sure that the Crypt has a clvl barrier; the game may assume if you're there, you've finished Hive. On this my memory is more hazy.

-Lem


Hmm, I think I might have spoken too soon on that one too. Now that I think about it, it maybe just wishful thinking on my part. I do have conflicting memory of going to the Hive and just harvesting the crypt map.

Yep, it's been too long. D1 also had adamantium ice skates of transportational quickness right? For your boots slot? I know for sure I have that somewheres around here...
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08-19-2011, 07:51 AM
Post: #18
RE: Rogue Coop 101?
YAY! You're right, it WORKED!
There is a little spot on the lower left where the Crypt opens.
Why didn't I just ask in the first place?

Now if I can find some time in the evening, Mrs. Leoric and I really need to talk...


BTW: Nope, no clvl barrier.
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08-19-2011, 08:28 AM
Post: #19
RE: Rogue Coop 101?
(08-19-2011 07:51 AM)lyyn Wrote:  BTW: Nope, no clvl barrier.

That's even better to know then. Some of my memories on the game are getting foggy.
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08-19-2011, 08:52 AM
Post: #20
RE: Rogue Coop 101?
(08-19-2011 08:28 AM)Hammerskjold Wrote:  
(08-19-2011 07:51 AM)lyyn Wrote:  BTW: Nope, no clvl barrier.

That's even better to know then. Some of my memories on the game are getting foggy.

OTOH it IS ~Hell, so the clvl barrier is kind of built in and self-enforcing.
You can imagine how fast I turned around Wink

Just had a stair death yesterday, NO need for a repeat.
Had to spend all my money for firewall scrolls to recover from that one Sad
Acid Beasts AND Illusion Weavers with some little screeching thing thrown in for good measure... brrr...
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