Bio-electricity

[Taem]

So I was thinking about our marvelous bodies the other day, and came to realize that for a very small amount of food (half a fist), our bodies are capable of converting the nutrients from that into hours and hours of physical labor through muscle contortions. Furthermore, those nutrients allow the body to heat itself, and run a mild electrical current to keep the pistons firing. Additionally, our waste can be used as fertilizer and methane gas. If someone were to find a way to create a non-living bio-engineered "thing" that requires a few drops of water and some sprinkling of fish food and in return outputs "x" amount of hours of physical labor or computing, well I see a real future in that! What is common solar power-to-AC-conversion loss rates? Like 65-70% or more? With bio-electricity, we're talking about a conversion gain, not loss! Think about it, people have put people through terrible tribulations, yet despite meager amount of food and water, human are capable of intense physical labor. Let me put this another way: ex. 1-lb of food = 6-8 hours of physical labor. In this example, the fusion our body does with food outputs incredible energy from such a small amount. I wonder how much energy is the food equal too (sunlight, growth, harvesting). If our example was fed grain or fish food, something that could be grown over time without much oversight, then the cost to produce as opposed to the gain would be out-marginalized by a tremendous amount, meaning very little put in for a huge gain! This could be the holy grail of endless power!

[kandrathe]

This could be the holy grail of endless power!

Why reinvent the wheel? You want a machine complicated enough to be able to do useful "work", but not so complicated that it consciously comprehends its meager existence as your slave.

[--Pete]

Hi,

There are more efficient ways of turning solar power to usable energy.

--Pete

[Rhydderch Hael]

You do realize, of course, that you're getting excited over exactly what the 'villain' of The Matrix was doing to the human race. No?

[Taem]

You do realize, of course, that you're getting excited over exactly what the 'villain' of The Matrix was doing to the human race. No?

No. I'm not talking about enslaving sentient beings here, I'm talking about growing non-living, bio-engineered "things" that can do either one of two things:

1A) Provide electricity to us using our own bodies process of turning food into energy, then converting this energy into electricity. The problem with that is there is no known way of extracting the energy the body makes from food except through the minimal amounts of heat and electricity our bodies produce. But if you can push a car up a hill, where is this latent energy coming from? From within. Our bodies generate it. Surely there is a way to harness that latent energy?!?

2A) Produce non-living muscles that do nothing more than contract all day long, causing pistons/turbines to move generating electricity. Now if we could figure out how to grow muscles, well first off we could grow them the size of turbines, but this would also be much easier to mass produce and create than #1. We wouldn't need to dam waters any longer, or wait for wind to blow... we could use these bio-engineered things to do the grunt work for us and produce the electricity themselves all day long.

1&2-B) As bio-engineering improves, computers could start using microchips and a processor that uses bio-chemical storage for near-infinite storage, but I'm not sure if using that would speed up or slow down modern electrical components.

---

2B) We could start growing meat and let animals roam free again. I am a meat eater, but I'll be first to admit that we are depleting the worlds stock of fish and game from our massive hunger for meat. Growing our meat instead could change the world for the better, for the animals injected with hormones and steroids, for us, and for the environment.

[--Pete]

Hi,

We could start growing meat and let animals roam free again.

The reason animals don't roam free is not that we eat them. It's that we've taken over almost all their environment for our farms and cities and ski slopes and golf courses. Once again, the problem is the uncurbed expansion of humanity and the solution is a return to a much smaller population.

As for the rest, thermodynamics tells us that energy cannot be created and that in converting energy from one form to another there are always some losses. All biological activity ultimately traces back to solar energy. Photosynthesis driven by sunlight supplies the basis for all the energy in the biosphere. Photosynthesis is about 1% efficient in converting sunlight. Solar cells are 6% and more efficient. So, even if the remaining steps of your idea are 100% efficient (and that isn't even theoretically possible) your system would deliver 1/6th or less electrical energy as would an equivalent area of solar cells.

The mechanical idea is equally flawed for similar reasons. Rather than go into detail, I'll just give you this link: http://mb-soft.com/public2/humaneff.html

--Pete

[Taem]

Hi,

It was a very interesting article with many valid points... for HUMANS, however there are many problems in there in regards to what I'm talking about, which I guess you just aren't understanding what I'm saying yet, so I'll try again by referencing that site you linked:

First, the equations that site gives are based on feeding an entire body with a complete cardo-vascular system, many organs, a way of heating itself via metabolism (probably the biggest energy loss there), a brain... you get the picture. I'm NOT talking about that, I'm talking about a GIANT MUSCLE that is fed air (imagine adding TURBO to your car engine), and circulates artificial fluid to feed it the nutrients it requires to keep doing what it's doing. Everyone who has tried their hand in working out knows that you only stop your reps to catch your breath and re-oxygenate your muscles, else they can't continue to perform, even though they still have the "capability" to do so. Oxygen is free, so it does not have to be factored into the equation other than keeping the giant muscle constantly moving without having to ever stop.

Second, that site is comparing human bio-energy to thermal energy, and while the concept of turning "something" into energy may be a constant, the way of achieving that is dissimilar in that we don't have any known way of extracting just the energy the human body can produce (i.e. moving a car up a hill and building a house in one day with just one bowl of oatmeal and a ham and cheese sandwich) in an efficient way other than thermal conversions, which are greatly lacking. There is no known way. I'm talking about a device, I don't know, maybe a mechanical metabolism, that ingests food and outputs productivity. I don't care about heating or cooling the body or powering a brain; think Cylon here, not thermal conversion rates!

I hope that makes it clearer?

[kandrathe]

I hope that makes it clearer?

There is work being done in robotics on electro-active polymers to simulate muscles. Or, the latest buzz is on Superelastic Carbon Nanotube Aerogel Muscles.

Once actuated (or put into motion) in a certain direction, these new artificial muscles can elongate 10 times more than natural muscles and at rates 1,000 times higher than a natural muscle. In another direction, when densified, they can generate thirty times the force of a natural muscle having the same cross-sectional area. While natural muscles can contract at about 20 percent per second, the new artificial muscles can contract at about 30,000 percent per second.

These artificial muscles are carbon nanotube aerogel sheets made by a novel solid-state process developed at UT Dallas. Sometimes called frozen smoke, aerogel is a low-density solid-state material derived from a gel in which the liquid component of the gel has been replaced with gas. Aerogels are comprised mostly of air. The starting material is an array of vertically aligned carbon nanotubes manufactured under a chemical heat process. Because of the special arrangement of these nanotube arrays, which are called forests because they look like a bamboo forest, the carbon nanotubes can be pulled into sheets at speeds of up two meters per second. The sheets have such low density that an ounce would cover an acre.

When scientists apply a voltage to the carbon nanotube aerogel sheets, the nanotubes repulse, or push away from one another, which in effect works the muscle. These transparent sheets have strange properties that are important for muscle operation. While having about the density of air, in one direction, they have higher specific strength (strength/density) than a steel plate. When stretched in another direction, they provide rubber-like stretchability, but by a mechanism quite different than for ordinary rubber. Because of their nanoscale and microscale structure, they amplify a percent stretch in the nanotube orientation direction to a percent 15 times larger than the percent they contract laterally.

What we need is to better understand the matrices that determine how stem cell tissues grow, so we can regrow limbs, eyes, nerves or your biomechanical automata. And, knowing that we could design an optimized circulatory system that removed lactic acid, and provided perfect nutrient and oxygen levels.

But, really you are more in the realm of Terminator/Blade Runner type technology. Although, morally, it's nothing that the god of bio-mechanics wouldn't let you into heaven for.

P.S. As an afterthought, perhaps other creatures have better structures for the workhorses for which you are looking, like ants for example.

P.S.S. You should look into the functionality of Mitochondria, and Chloroplasts. For plants and animals, it starts there. But... Pete is right. If we can use solar cells with a higher efficiency than cells, that is a better solution. At least while the sun shines. If you use the sun to accumulate biomass which you feed to an organism that produces work, or energy, then it started with the sun again to make the food (or, fuel -- complex hydrocarbons, where hydrogen is bound to CO2 via carbon sequestration). That might be a solution for motive power when the sun is not available. This is why before the widespread use of automobiles we used horses as our work horses. They eat pasture and hay, and some grain, and convert it into motive power, heat and manure 24/7. So, more things to think about would be that a bio-mechanical device is "always on", it will need some system of cellular regeneration, and it produces wastes that need to be filtered out and purged somehow.

P.S.S.S. Aye. A record for afterthoughts... But, it really comes down to hydrogen. The biological and man's history of fuels comes down to energy density, where hydrogen (liquid esp.) is the winner. MIT recently announces a breakthrough in the solar hydrogen storage area.

[Hammerskjold]

...I'm talking about a device, I don't know, maybe a mechanical metabolism, that ingests food and outputs productivity.

I kinda understand what you're trying to say. There is some applications where a bio\mecha hybrid machine can have advantages.

Either in a hazardous environment where regular machines could not operate, or an environment where service interval is in the decades, not months or years. Most likely both.

But at this point, the tech and understanding is probably not quite up there yet. And this bio machine will have to have some compelling advantages over ye olde steel gears. Because otherwise it's straying too close to a Rube Goldberg in terms of efficiency.

I do however, see the application for an alternative energy and health fitness combo. It sounds like a jokey premise, but my dream cottage aka remote zombie hideaway fort would have solar, wind, and some sort of human assisted power gen. Could be as 'simple' as a stationary bike \ treadmill hooked up to generator\battery system.

Seriously, I hate most forms of exercises. But if pedalling for 30 min means I banked 30* min of electricity, well I'd be more inclined to pedal. (And at least I'm improving my cardio in case I have to run from zombies.)

* Rough analogy, and please, for anyone itching to bring out that strawmen of how am I going to run my cottage on pedalling alone, bla bla bla. It is a supplement, and it's not like I'm trying to light up the Eiffel tower. This cottage will have to be designed with super efficiency in mind. The 300 gigawatt anti zombie laser cannon turret can wait at this point.

I don't care about heating or cooling the body or powering a brain; think Cylon here, not thermal conversion rates!

Then you will have a problem, because metabolism is kinda related to heating and cooling. I'm no biotician, but even just a glance at our own bodies and other animal bodies you'll notice it's kind of a big deal.

Even a hypothetical 'simple' muscle fiber pulley system with no brain, will have to deal with operational temperature range. (This is even assuming a 'simple' biological fuel intake system aka digestion is magically factored into the equation, for argument sake.)

What is the metabolism of this bio machine. Will this bio machine be cold blooded or hot blooded? Will it get a fever if it's too hot, or literally cook? Will it get freezer burn or get frostbite if it's too cold? Or just slow down to a crawl and maybe go into hibernate mode? What about things like infections and aging.

If it's a hybrid system, how easy is it to repair and service? Will it have the advantages of both systems? Or the worst of both?

I don't want to sound like a prick, but the things you described is not as simple as it seems. Biological systems of even 'simple' organisms can be complex.

The last I read about bio-mimicry and robotics the direction was less mammallian, and more insectoid. And ya'll know what that means.

http://transformers.wikia.com/wiki/Insecticon_(G1)

We must stop these mad scientists before they doom us all!!111

pps. Kandrathe and me seemed to have a rare mind meld moment there at least with insects and robots.

[LavCat]

This cottage will have to be designed with super efficiency in mind. The 300 gigawatt anti zombie laser cannon turret can wait at this point.

I keep a toilet tank cover in my entrance way...just in case.

[Taem]

I don't want to sound like a prick, but the things you described is not as simple as it seems.

Oh, I knew that when I made my initial post. We don't have the technology yet to do any of the things I proposed. This is merely a thought along the lines of theory-based inquisition. I was watching some shows such as Nova, The Universe, and Mythbusters and hypothesizing on our bodies "potential" and "latent" energy, and the theory that energy cannot be destroyed. Based on what we know of energy, with what our bodies are capable of - using Pete's own website, a small amount of food is capable of providing us with internal body heat, higher brain functions, blood flow, t-cells, a mild electrical current, etc. - all in our "resting state", and our muscles allow us to perform much more physical labor in a working state. The energy our bodies get from a small amount of food using our metabolic process is huge! My thought process was that the energy is there - it cannot be destroyed, so there has to be a way to convert it to a usable energy. I was merely positing possible ways to harness this energy - with technology still out of reach - without the use of a living host (i.e. animal or human).

In regards to the metabolism heating/cooling... I don't think reptiles use their metabolisms this way, so I think your incorrect. Sickness and disease would be a concern if such technology came to be, but I'd imagine the process wouldn't be much different than how they inject antibiotics into livestock now once every couple months to keep them from getting sick. Anyways, just a passing thought with huge possibilities, but way, way out of reach still.

[kandrathe]

I was merely positing possible ways to harness this energy - with technology still out of reach - without the use of a living host (i.e. animal or human).

We do harness this energy. Such as, Alcohol.

sunlight → plants → sugars + yeasts + water → C2H5OH

C12H22O11 (sucrose) + H2O + invertase → 2 x C6H12O6

C6H12O6 (fructose/glucose) + Zymase → 2 x C2H5OH + 2 x CO2

I think what you are after is a way for machines to metabolize and use energy, and it really doesn't matter what form that energy takes.

Sun → energy → work + potential energy storage (for excess)

For mammals, the potential is stored as lipids, and has an energy density near to coal. Glucose is the active fuel of our cells, and so our bodies regulate a nearly constant supply to keep us running.

Then, when energy levels get low enough another system kicks in;

potential energy → energy → work

In essence then, a simple model would be a solar cell, a battery, a motorized water pump, and a storage tank. When work needs to be done (storage tank is low) a switch turns on the the pump until the tank is filled, meanwhile another system keeps the battery fully charged due to solar power.

I think you are imagining just more complicated versions of that simple closed loop model of energy capture, and energy consumption.

[Hammerskjold]

In regards to the metabolism heating/cooling... I don't think reptiles use their metabolisms this way, so I think your incorrect.

Maybe I was imprecise and we got our wires crossed. I was talking more about this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basal_metabolic_rate

But since you mentioned reptiles, that's a good example of why when you say 'I don't care about heating or cooling the body...', you kinda have to.

Most reptiles are affected by the ambient temperature. If this muscle machine can only function well in say 21-23 degrees celsius. Well from a practical point of view that's a goldbrick of a machine. There better be some compelling advantages it offers over what we have with conventional machines.

You seem to be focused on the 'work' part. No offense, but let's say the tech and knowledge became possible literally tomorrow. Not cheaply or common, but we cracked the mystery.

Things like organ transplant and medicine in general will be the first to benefit. And absolutely things like safe lab grown protein for food. (Take that PETA!!11) Maybe specialized energy storage, organic based memory is probably too random and volatile (nyuk nyuk) but for the sake of argument let's put down more research on it. Maybe it could have a benefit in Alzheimers research. Most of the things you and others already listed basically.

But it would likely not replace Honda generators anytime soon. At least not the way you described it.

Even if it came down in price and availability, conventional machines still have a lot of advantages in most cases.

Sickness and disease would be a concern if such technology came to be, but I'd imagine the process wouldn't be much different than how they inject antibiotics into livestock now once every couple months to keep them from getting sick.

This was another reason why people switched to horseless carriage. Setting aside that I really doubt most people want to mess with more antibiotics, especially with the dangers of overuse etc.

Conventional machines also needs repair and maintenance. But you could put most machines into storage condition, drain the oil\fuel etc. This bio machine, if it was the equivalent of a horse for example. Will still need food, care, and possibly medicine even if it's just sitting in the barn. (Just modern efficiency wise. Horses are awesome in many other ways.) And I'm following your example of no complex brain machine, maybe just a very simple system.

For simple brutal efficiency, this bio machine will likely cost more money$. So unless it was either so cheap that it's almost disposable\recyclable, or have some incredible advantage or so specialized, it's a no go.

Again, it's mostly your focus that I'm questioning. I would absolutely love a bio machine like a tank of algae that converts my household waste into say liquid fuel. (I can have my choice between diesel, or alcohol based, just choose the appropriate algae packs.) But a bio machine to do 'work' the way you've described it so far, is way too inefficient for most things.

Unless I misread your posts, it sounds like you want to make John Henry muscles, so that it could operate a steam hammer. Or a muscle power a piston to turn a generator to power the steam hammer. While that may make an awesome display of 'SCIENCE!', it's not very practical or efficient in most cases.

[Taem]

I think what you are after is a way for machines to metabolize and use energy, and it really doesn't matter what form that energy takes.

I think you are imagining just more complicated versions of that simple closed loop model of energy capture, and energy consumption.

Yes on the first part, and on the second part, there is a very good chance you are correct. And as Hammerskjold pointed out in his latest post, the payoff would not be worth the benefit, at least not until this type of machine was so commonplace that it was dirt cheap to produce. And once we got there, who knows, but that won't happen in our lifetimes.

[kandrathe]

And once we got there, who knows, but that won't happen in our lifetimes.

I wouldn't bet on it.

There is quite a bit of applied science potential in the hopper due to the past twenty years of research in materials sciences, biology/biochemistry, physics, etc. Revolutionary changes are afoot in applied research just from what I've looked at in molecular biology, not to mention the others.

I guess the gist of what I'm implying is that the "invention" has been made by nature, and we must merely copy it. There is room for improvement, but for all that is going on in us, we are a pretty well honed design. The MIT article that I linked to above made their solar to hydrogen "break though" by better understanding chloroplasts. The solar panel article I linked to above mentioned affordable 30% efficient gallium arsenide cells available now. Sunshine is inconveniently variable, both daily and seasonally. Life needed a way to capture the energy, and efficiently store it in a form that we could sip on through the dark times. Hence, we have sugar, carbohydrates, and lipids. I'm not sure we need to reinvent the wheel here either. There is a good reason our design is based on hydrocarbons.

Then, to the consumption side. You are looking for a way to efficiently consume the energy from its stored state providing useful work. You are looking for a structure that requires minimal maintenance, has a long mean time between failures, or one that self repairs. These are not requirements out of the realm of possible for today's sciences.

[Taem]

So it would appear artifiicial meat is on the horizon: LINK

In regards to what I have been talking about all along, this meat requires no blood, and if the muscles could be provoked to spasm on their own without outside stimuli, their contractions could operate a device (think wind-up flash-light here, but something even more effecient) producing electricity. The cost? Producing the muscle and keeping it fed. The output? Unknown at this point, but once this technology is perfected, the amount of energy produced could one day eclipse the nutrient input requried to produce the muscle, thus a potentially perfect endless energy device that, when it dies, can be used to feed the masses; a perfect circle. It could even start off (cost wise) as a food source that has the added benefit of producing it's own energy! I a little surprised you guys are still struggling to see my vision here, lol. Or perhaps I'm just looking through rose covered glasses?

*Sorry, wrote this quick - at work - and msWord is disabled, so I haven't spell-checked it. I though the LL had a spell-checker.

[kandrathe]

It could even start off (cost wise) as a food source that has the added benefit of producing it's own energy!

Billy Preston said it; "Nothin' from nothin' leaves nothin'".

You gotta have something, if you want to eat the meat.

I a little surprised you guys are still struggling to see my vision here, lol. Or perhaps I'm just looking through rose covered glasses?

The article is interesting in a "new flavor of yogurt" type of way, but no one is suggesting creating artificial cannibalistic Popeye's, that run treadmills to solve our energy shortage. More like "The Matrix" and their single-celled protein and amino acid colloid that has a very unappealing consistency and flavor of Tasty Wheat.

Not even a cabal of scientists meeting in Sweden is going to find a meat that violates the laws of the conservation of energy. To make the muscles, you will require more energy than could be produced by the muscles as they consume themselves. The source of this energy is solar (the sun supplied the energy to grow the ingredients in the nutrient agar used to grow the proteins.)

The reason we do transform energy from one form to another is to make it edible (for ourselves or our animals) or portable, to pump into our gas guzzling automobiles. But, then it would be more viable to create an algae that uses the sun to combine carbons directly with water to produce oil (carbon sequestration process).

[Taem]

It could even start off (cost wise) as a food source that has the added benefit of producing it's own energy!

Billy Preston said it; "Nothin' from nothin' leaves nothin'".

You gotta have something, if you want to eat the meat.

I a little surprised you guys are still struggling to see my vision here, lol. Or perhaps I'm just looking through rose covered glasses?

The article is interesting in a "new flavor of yogurt" type of way, but no one is suggesting creating artificial cannibalistic Popeye's, that run treadmills to solve our energy shortage. More like "The Matrix" and their single-celled protein and amino acid colloid that has a very unappealing consistency and flavor of Tasty Wheat.

Not even a cabal of scientists meeting in Sweden is going to find a meat that violates the laws of the conservation of energy. To make the muscles, you will require more energy than could be produced by the muscles as they consume themselves. The source of this energy is solar (the sun supplied the energy to grow the ingredients in the nutrient agar used to grow the proteins.)

The reason we do transform energy from one form to another is to make it edible (for ourselves or our animals) or portable, to pump into our gas guzzling automobiles. But, then it would be more viable to create an algae that uses the sun to combine carbons directly with water to produce oil (carbon sequestration process).

Ok, I think I'm finally starting to understand what you and Pete have been saying all along: solar energy is the best because essentially, it is the source for everything else, so why not go straight to the source and cut out the middle-man (i.e. reduced effeciency)? I'm following you... finally, lol!

In regards to the meat, the article said the flavor can be whatever type of meat you choose. It even mentions creating rare meats, such as Panda burgers and so forth. And if the muscles are exercised, I believe the texture should be close to the real thing! As for how they create it, I'm willing to bet soon, they will fill a 1/2' size flat swimming pool with the stuff and "grow" it. I wouldn't mind trying some grown wooly-mamoth steak myself! Coming to a restaurant near you!

[kandrathe]

In regards to the meat, the article said the flavor can be whatever type of meat you choose. It even mentions creating rare meats, such as Panda burgers and so forth. And if the muscles are exercised, I believe the texture should be close to the real thing! As for how they create it, I'm willing to bet soon, they will fill a 1/2' size flat swimming pool with the stuff and "grow" it. I wouldn't mind trying some grown wooly-mamoth steak myself! Coming to a restaurant near you!

I guess if you hate tofu. Isn't that what they always say about tofu, you can shape it and make it "taste" like whatever you like.

"If you don't eat yer congealed protein mash, you can't have any pudding. How can you have any pudding if you don't eat yer congealed protein mash?"

You will need to change your handle or risk being an anachronism.