Back to Rogue :) Anybody have an opinion about Snobs and Lightning Walls?

[lyyn]

Back where I belong, only this time I'm playing her as an Elitist.

So far it feels more powerful than restricting, but that's ok. I don't like those awkward early stages anyway.
It's always:
- I'll just warp back to the stairs and th... no I won't.
- No problem, let me just tk that and… *aarg* no I won't
- Why don't I stonecurse that… NOPE!
An my least favourite:
- WHY do I need three arrows for one stupid Skeleton? Sheesh..

I'm guessing I'm going to pay for the ease with which I sailed through church on later levels when resistance is an issue and I can't just slap on some jewels, or use +magic items to learn spells – looking forward to finding out

Speaking of Magic: Anybody have an opinion about Snobs and Lightning Walls?

Items so far:
first birthday: Eaglehorn (it had to be a bow obviously. Windforce does more damage, but who can afford the upkeep at lower levels, plus the knockback gets old real fast.
fifth birthday: Royal Circlet – my mage finally found one, YAY. Again the obvious choice for a rogue
tenth birthday: Scavenger Carapace (I know, I know... but I don't HAVE a Demonspike Coat
My next in line are an identified Götterdämmerung and a Nightscape – I'm kind of nervous right now that I have no means of item recovery yet
Drops in the game:
Gnarled Root – I think it's my tenth or so. Useful because of +magic.
Black Razor – meh

Since Hellfire does have unique amulets I don't even have to make an exception for those. That's a good thing from a role playing point of view, but it probably makes it more difficult regarding resistance and +stats... - again: the fun is in finding out


EDIT: äähhhh... of course the presents were the other way around.. ahem

[Nystul]

Just out of curiosity, how did you manage the strength and dexterity requirements for Eaglehorn with a new character?

I think there was kind of an unofficial tradition amongst the elitists to get "birthday presents" that were more or less in line with the level of the character and the areas the character is in. For example, for the level 5 gift someone might only consider items that are close to or lower than qlvl 5, or items that can be found in normal/church. Perhaps they might choose a Thinking Cap or Constricting Ring, or Wisdom's Wrap, or the Cudgel. This way the game maintains more of a sense of challenge throughout.

[lyyn]

Hi Nystul,

Just out of curiosity, how did you manage the strength and dexterity requirements for Eaglehorn with a new character?

I didn't...

I started out the way I described, which forced me to kick my way through the first church level. Perfectly doable but tedious...I finished that level, realized my mistake and started over with Royal Circlet as my first gift. This still meant I hat to kick my way though level 1 twice to get Eaglehorn + the necessary Str but it was fast and easy wearing the Royal Circlet.

I think there was kind of an unofficial tradition amongst the elitists to get "birthday presents" that were more or less in line with the level of the character and the areas the character is in. For example, for the level 5 gift someone might only consider items that are close to or lower than qlvl 5, or items that can be found in normal/church. Perhaps they might choose a Thinking Cap or Constricting Ring, or Wisdom's Wrap, or the Cudgel.

There is? NOW you tell me! ooops... didn't know.
Well, half true, I read that in IronSnob Rules, but I thought since I'm not doing IM... Oh well, I guess that costs me the{SNOB} behind my name. I somehow feel defrocked

This way the game maintains more of a sense of challenge throughout.

I felt plenty challenged when I fell to Deathspit... TWICE... (still can't #%&$§# believe it). Problem was, I couldn't use the perfectly fine Coil Of The Dark I had found earlier to get my stuff back. I really don't understand why they are considered cursed, I always do a little jig when I find them.
That, btw, forced my hand on the Lightning Wall issue. It was all I had since I couldn't just pick up another bow and all other spells at my disposal were expressly forbidden.
I get that Fire Wall isn't possible because Flame Wave is “nobler” (feels pretentious, writing that) but there is no lightning based equivalent to Flame Wave, is there?

[LemmingofGlory]

There is? NOW you tell me! ooops... didn't know.
Well, half true, I read that in IronSnob Rules, but I thought since I'm not doing IM... Oh well, I guess that costs me the{SNOB} behind my name. I somehow feel defrocked

Nystul's suggestion also promotes the use of uniques you might not normally use, and that's fun in and of itself. (Staff of Shadows, anyone?) Another thought is that with a SNOB it's easy to know the setup you ultimately want to use, so if you actually leave those uniques to be found by your character, you can have a greater sense of joy when the SNOB finally finds them.

...but there is no lightning based equivalent to Flame Wave, is there?

Lightning Wall and Nova seem to be the Elitist's lightning spells of choice.

-Lem

[lyyn]

Always works: Trying everything at least once DOES always have it's rewards!

I went back, started over and it just RAINED uniques down on me.
Gleamsong, Blackoak, Mangler... and of course the inevitable Gnarled Root – I really could build one or two nice drinking games around this one.
Also gave me the opportunity to see some effects I didn't know before, such as Flambeau and Sparking Mail cancel each other out.. huh.. who knew. Had to make a pretty harrowing escape before I figured that one out
But here is the best part – aside from getting sweet revenge on Deathspit – a Helm of Spirits(!) from a garden variety Overlord, on Normal lvl 6. I thought that wasn't possible!

BTW: I'm getting a lot of fun tips, help, answers here, but I just realized that it is all past tense.
“...I used to...”
“...there was a tradition..."
“...back when I was playing...”
I get that the game is old, but If nobody actually plays any more then how is this forum still active? It's not exactly rush hour here, but I AM getting great answers.
Doesn't anybody still play?

[--Pete]

Hi,

... If nobody actually plays any more then how is this forum still active?

Some people still play D1. Others play other games discussed on this site (like WoW), but will look at a post that shows up in the D1 forum. Many of us will answer if we know (and remember). Overall, Lurkers are very nice people

--Pete

[lyyn]

Overall, Lurkers are very nice people

So I noticed
Still, hearing some war stories would be fun.

But I'll take what I can get and settle for telling mine

Here is a recurring one:
Here I am, standing in front of a door, firing at a mob on the other side. The situation is well under control until...
…my char decides to run headlong into the room.
This is killing me. Really, it is.
It always happens the same way: I'm holding the shift key and firing. At the start, the mob is big, so there is always one bad guy or another in focus. When the mob is thinned out and no one is in a straight line to the door anymore, the focus is lost. That is when, sometimes, my rogue runs into the remaining mob.
Against, say, Goat Archers this is survivable, against Poison Spitters, not so much...
Had it only happened once, I would have shrugged it off and thought I was clumsy enough to let go of the shift key. But this is happening twice or so per game. It isn't a Hellfire issue, because it happens in Diablo too.
I have tried to link this to me moving the mouse to focus on a new target, or maybe just to the amount of time that the shift key is pressed, but since it only happens once in while, I can't really pinpoint it to one cause. Plus, right after that happens, I'm usually REALLY busy and not contemplating some technical issue

Has this ever happened to anybody else? Or do I just need a new keyboard?

[--Pete]

Hi,

If you really aren't letting go of the shift key, then it sounds like a hardware (keyboard) problem to me. However, you might try playing without the shift key and practice selecting your targets. Fellow players, especially warriors, will appreciate not having to find a Butt Plate of Absorption.

--Pete

[lyyn]

If you really aren't letting go of the shift key, then it sounds like a hardware (keyboard) problem to me. However, you might try playing without the shift key and practice selecting your targets. Fellow players, especially warriors, will appreciate not having to find a Butt Plate of Absorption

Hi Pete,

true, maybe not...
But just try and visualize the possible graphics for that. It might be worth it :-P

Actually I don't know the first thing about coop tactics, never tried that, although I'm guessing “The butt of your partner is NOT a Snow Witch” is a good general principle

No shift key: won't that slow down my firing rate?

lg,
lyyn

[Galbraith]

Hi,

If you really aren't letting go of the shift key, then it sounds like a hardware (keyboard) problem to me. However, you might try playing without the shift key and practice selecting your targets. Fellow players, especially warriors, will appreciate not having to find a Butt Plate of Absorption.

--Pete

Yes, it seems so. I got the same problem with wireless keyboard. First I thought that it loses signal, but checked that there is a rule:

If the key is pressed for more (you can have other time cap for your keyboard) than 20 seconds, and no other signal from keyboard (not mouse) is transmitted (like pressing another key), the signal is stopped transmitting.

You can check, if you got that by simple example like: run notepad then press and hold some key i.e. "a" and wait for 20 seconds or more. When "a" character is stopped typing, then you are no lucky with your keyboard manufacturer.

I didn't find a remedy for that, and probably there isn’t. If you got the same problem as I, change keyboard or be very careful and remember to hold off a shift and press it again before 20 seconds elapse.

Another possibility is that you just losing signal (if wireless)... try then switch to new battery or put your radio receiver closer, even several centimeters closer could help.

Also gave me the opportunity to see some effects I didn't know before, such as Flambeau and Sparking Mail cancel each other out.. huh.. who knew. Had to make a pretty harrowing escape before I figured that one out

damn, I need to check that Hellfire stuff someday!

But here is the best part – aside from getting sweet revenge on Deathspit – a Helm of Spirits(!) from a garden variety Overlord, on Normal lvl 6. I thought that wasn't possible!

I always though that too, are you 100% sure, it was normal?

No shift key: won't that slow down my firing rate?

Why it should do so? In vanilla D1 it won't then probably HF shall be no exception?

[lyyn]

I didn't find a remedy for that, and probably there isn’t. If you got the same problem as I, change keyboard or be very careful and remember to hold off a shift and press it again before 20 seconds elapse.

#$&!!#… I'll have to go back to wire-bound ...thanks for the clarification.

damn, I need to check that Hellfire stuff someday!

Yep! You do.
Didn't even mention the best part yet: I found the new unique that replaced the Gladiator's Ring. I had to stop playing because I was laughing so hard. VERY appropriate...

I always though that too, are you 100% sure, it was normal?

Totally sure: I was about level 16-17 then and just replaying Normal/Cats because I didn't want to move on before I had learned Heal. (Still couldn't beg, steal, find or buy that book.. I’m 26 now, go figure...)
IIRC, in HF:Fixed the “dropability” of some uniques – rings especially, not that it did me any good so far – was modified. Maybe that's the reason?

Why it should do so? In vanilla D1 it won't then probably HF shall be no exception?

ok, I was unclear there: Not the rate my bow *can* fire, more like the rate *I* can fire:
What I usually do, if I have a secure position (choke point/door or just enough distance) is just fire into a mob until everything stops moving. Given enough damage, normally nothing, or at least not enough, breaks through to (ugh) hit me because they get stunned in my line of fire. If I hold the shift key, I stand my ground and don't accidentally move away from the position I want/need to hold AND I don't have to interrupt my rapid fire, because I can acquire a target while shooting. So my bow and rapid firing is also – sort of – my shield.
I'm just not sure what to replace that tactic with.
I'm ESPECIALLY not sure that not using the shift key won't lead to me running into even more mobs.

lg,
lyyn

EDIT:
“mob” is of course a relative term.
Outside of Church/Cats) my comfort zone is
3 BK (not near me)
or
3 Lava Maws (preferably very near me)
or
4 horned demons (not charging)
or
1 witch (I never realized how much magic HURTS without resists)
or
6 Overlords (they're slow...)
or
any conceivable number of anything behind a choke point/still offscreen

and -of course- 1 Diablo

[Hammerskjold]

For me at least, I definitely favour the shift fire method vs direct target click. For the exact same reasons you outlined.

I don't remember where I learned it exactly. It could very well be from hanging around too many "Variant Scum" players.
(Variant Scum used as a term of endearment.)


But anyway I personally liked this method over direct targeting most of the time. It shoots arrows in straight and predictable lines.

A rough and bad ascii diagram:

X= your rouge coloured rogue
o= the tile area, you can even mark it with dropping coins

o o o
o X o
o o o

So the idea is to click only on those immediate area to move, and shift fire click in the same immediate area. IIRC the benefit is your arrows also flies in a straighter path, and again IIRC. Projectiles that flies in this cardinal direction path travels straighter. And once again IIRC, due to tech issues projectiles that flies kinda askew and not at a cardinal direction straight, don't always hit. (Setting aside for a second your Chance to Hit % and DEX etc etc)

I still use direct targetting method, but it's usually for stragglers or something.

TL;DR:

95% of the time my mouse cursor is only moving at those close cardinal area, both for movement and shift click to fire. 5% is direct target method.

I personally like it because I feel I'm more in control of the arrows paths and I don't have to scramble around with my cursor as much. YMMV.

ps. This was done with wired keyboard mice though. I'm too old skool and stubborn for wireless keyboard and mice.

pps. Disregard if you already know this method and it's more of a technical issue with your wireless setup.

[lyyn]

I still use direct targeting method, but it's usually for stragglers or something.

That, plus when I'm playing with only one hand because I'm way below my level or feeling lazy or both... until it gets me killed of course

I use your method in straight lines when I want to be sure I don't run into any surprises offscreen in the direction I intend to go next. Works nicely: when the ouches stop there is more often than not very little left I can't handle. (hate those niches though...)
Never tried it in a 360 deg manner. I am WAY to chicken for that

lg,
lyyn

ps:

X= your rouge coloured rogue

don't tell me I actually made that mistake somewhere *blushes*

[Hammerskjold]

Never tried it in a 360 deg manner. I am WAY to chicken for that

I tend towards being efficient, and by that I mean what can I do to be more efficiently lazy. And for me at least, the close tile cardinal method suits me to a T. Mostly because I'm fairly lazy and I don't like moving the cursor around too much.

Since this is HF however, there is one bow that throws a curveball to my preferred method. The Gnatsting. I found with that bow I usually find my cursor to be moving near the edge of the screen, vs close to the character sprite.

Fired with the cursor close to the character IIRC produces a wide but near useless spread. With the cursor further away the bow produces a tighter grouping.

So on one hand, I have to be less lazy if I'm using Gnatsting, and that's bad.

But on the other, Gnatsting + high enough Rogue clvl = Arrow Shotgun of Awesomeness.

don't tell me I actually made that mistake somewhere *blushes*

Nah. You spelled it correctly which is why I'm reminded of that common mistake. Golf clap for blush and rouge pun though.

[lyyn]

But on the other, Gnatsting + high enough Rogue clvl = Arrow Shotgun of Awesomeness

Is it? I have one but I have never used it. Good enough for Normal/Hell? What clvl?

I have GOT to experiment ....

Golf clap for blush and rouge pun though.

Yep... had me there...

EDIT: Speaking of firing a bow... With Balrog types, that dance around so much, I sometimes find it quicker to just hold one line of fire and let them run into it instead of aiming at them while they're doing that jogging thing. Of course I'm wide open for other suggestions!?

[Nystul]

I like to hold shift and shoot down the row of floor tiles next to a wall. To take it a step further, retreat around a corner 5 steps or so and shoot down that line. If you have enough damage to stun you can often knock the enemies back around the corner. The balrog can dance in circles all he wants in that other room, but to get to you he has to go around the corner into your line of fire. It also helps against vipers because they can't charge until they get around the corner. But the position won't hold if you wake up too many enemies.

With regards to coop, I'd rather having a rogue always shooting down the same wall than a rogue who is shooting at moving monsters. Diablo has a dirty little secret when it comes to that. Monster isn't always the same place on my screen as it is on yours.

[lyyn]

I like to hold shift and shoot down the row of floor tiles next to a wall. To take it a step further, retreat around a corner 5 steps or so and shoot down that line. If you have enough damage to stun you can often knock the enemies back around the corner. The balrog can dance in circles all he wants in that other room, but to get to you he has to go around the corner into your line of fire.

Exactly what I mean!
Depending on the Evil Type I vary the distance to the corner.
Lava Maws – very close, don't want them to start spitting.
BK – further, they're slow enough that I can often pick them off before I have to retreat.
With Witches I sometimes have the feeling, that if they don't round the corner fully, I can see/hit them without them reacting to me. Physics tell me, it can't be, but I like it

Don't get me wrong: I DO aim at the monsters, at least when they are in my sight and I'm not just sweepng a dark passage or doing crowd control. It's just, that I try to position myself in a straight line to them first and if I can get them to come to me, ideally around a corner, it's so much easier.
I find Monsters that don't give chase a lot more difficult. They can't be lured into my arrow stream, so if I'm magically challenged, like right now, I end up rushing them

But the position won't hold if you wake up too many enemies.

Yikes! Hate it when that happens and I don't have much ground covered on that level yet.
Shoot the first 1-3, run, shoot some more, run, repeat... is basically the only tactic I know in that situation.
Which is why I LOVE having already cleared a second corner as a fall-back... preferably a third...
I usually try to walk on eggshells before I don't have at least one defensible position or enough room to evade/maneuver.

With regards to coop, I'd rather having a rogue always shooting down the same wall than a rogue who is shooting at moving monsters. Diablo has a dirty little secret when it comes to that. Monster isn't always the same place on my screen as it is on yours.

???
It isn't? How do you coordinate?

[--Pete]

Hi,

Diablo has a dirty little secret when it comes to that. Monster isn't always the same place on my screen as it is on yours.

???
It isn't? How do you coordinate?

As best you can. Magi and I often played side by side. We often compared screens and mobs were often in quite different positions on the two computers. However, it really wasn't all that bad, since what you hit with your ranged attacks was determined on your computer.

And any rogue who targets moving mobs in a coop game should be ostracized.

--Pete

[Hammerskjold]

Is it? I have one but I have never used it. Good enough for Normal/Hell? What clvl?

I have GOT to experiment ....

I don't have the exact numbers and breakpoints off hand, I'm sure it's in J's guide. Just from what I remember roughly, clvl 40 is enough to stun in H\Hell using just a plain bow, iirc assuming maxed DEX with no other affix (Dex, All, damage + etc) adders. Lower if you have Dex+ or All+ gear and or damage+ bow, but this can vary from what gear you find so IMO it's not worth being super specific.

But if you have enough for stun damage in Norm\Hell, then you can certainly see how Gnatsting handles for you.

One important caveat, you can't rapidfire the bow if you want the burst arrow iirc. If you do, it will only act as a single arrow bow. Probably a sanity check, Gnatsting is already pretty powerful as it is. If you can live with it's relatively slower firing rate, it really feels like you're going in with a medieval shotgun.

EDIT: Speaking of firing a bow... With Balrog types, that dance around so much, I sometimes find it quicker to just hold one line of fire and let them run into it instead of aiming at them while they're doing that jogging thing. Of course I'm wide open for other suggestions!?

Taking count of all the other good suggestion\infos already offered, I think that's probably close to all of it. That's what I remember doing with most of those balrogs too, as well as retreat\kiting\stringing\etc. Easier to just shoot a line of arrows and letting them run into the stream of arrows vs individually targetting them.

Knockback bows is another alternative. Iirc there was some issue in co-op MP with that, but if you're not co-op'ing that ain't a problem.

[LennyLen]

#$&!!#… I'll have to go back to wire-bound ...thanks for the clarification.

It can still happen with wired keyboards as well.