School spies on kids through student laptops

[roguebanshee]

http://www.boingboing.net/2010/02/17/schoo...ed-student.html

According to the filings in Blake J Robbins v Lower Merion School District (PA) et al, the laptops issued to high-school students in the well-heeled Philly suburb have webcams that can be covertly activated by the schools' administrators, who have used this facility to spy on students and even their families.

I'm not sure I can think of anything that would validate the ability to covertly record what happens in a kids room.

[--Pete]

Hi,

I'm not sure I can think of anything that would validate the ability to covertly record what happens in a kids room.

So, there's a follow up that admits to the spyware but denies that it was used. Bah.

The thing that really irritates me is that a school system is issuing laptops to students. There are schools in this country that don't have *basic* supplies. Laptops are not a basic supply.

As to privacy, the expectation of privacy is getting poorer and poorer as more technology capable of spying is disseminated. Of course, it's not the technology, it's how it's used that is at fault. Still, people need to figure out how to protect themselves. If a school district is capable of doing this, just think of what smart people can do.

--Pete

[Delc]

The thing that really irritates me is that a school system is issuing laptops to students. There are schools in this country that don't have *basic* supplies. Laptops are not a basic supply.

Maybe I'm jaded, but that part didn't shock me at all. Wealthy districts have a hard time dreaming up ways to spend the money they have. There is one near where I grew up that had a covered practice field for the football team. The moral of the story is to have the foresight to not be born poor.

[kandrathe]

So, there's a follow up that admits to the spyware but denies that it was used. Bah.

Other than the 42 times they admit for attempting to find lost or stolen ones. I priced out what I believe to be a better solution. It's a third party organization with a law enforcement background, and you don't have to worry about (true or false) charges of your admins peeping via the webcam.

[ShadowHM]

The thing that really irritates me is that a school system is issuing laptops to students. There are schools in this country that don't have *basic* supplies. Laptops are not a basic supply.

I am with Delc on this one: I am not at all surprised that a 'well-off' school board has the wherewithal to purchase laptops for their students. I know a young lady whose parents are springing for the private high school because the public system where they live is utterly dreadful. And she gets a laptop out of it. Beware of being born poor; there is no exit. :(

The question of privacy is another one altogether. I mourn the loss if it. My children have far lower expectations of privacy than I do. However, as one of them pointed out when I remonstrated with him over the information he allows to be available: there is so much information out there that unless someone REALLY wants to look, you are safe. And if someone is that motivated, then they can find out about you regardless of what you try to keep private.

[--Pete]

Hi,

I am with Delc on this one: I am not at all surprised that a 'well-off' school board has the wherewithal to purchase laptops for their students. I know a young lady whose parents are springing for the private high school because the public system where they live is utterly dreadful. And she gets a laptop out of it. Beware of being born poor; there is no exit. :(

Oh, I'm not surprised, just irritated. In Maple Valley, the local school district tried to pass an eight million dollar levy to build a performing arts theater for its high school. I cast my nay vote along with the rest of those opposed to spending more and more for less and less. I support education. Until that levy came up, I would vote for anything the schools asked for without even really thinking about it -- just as a matter of principle. Since then, I've looked at school requests with a jaundiced eye and have voted against most of them. I'd gladly pay more for education, but only if it were more evenly available and of a higher quality.

The question of privacy is another one altogether. I mourn the loss if it. My children have far lower expectations of privacy than I do. However, as one of them pointed out when I remonstrated with him over the information he allows to be available: there is so much information out there that unless someone REALLY wants to look, you are safe. And if someone is that motivated, then they can find out about you regardless of what you try to keep private.

All true. In addition, except for what could be used to steal my identity or property, I frankly don't care what anyone knows about me. I have little to hide (nothing I can think of, offhand).

--Pete

[roguebanshee]

and you don't have to worry about (true or false) charges of your admins peeping via the webcam.

Which is really the most troublesome issue here. Accidentially catching one of the kids in various states of undress could lead to a child pornography case. What would be even worse was if a child pornography ring got access to the controls to the webcameras.

[Vandiablo]

Remote-activated webcams are public knowledge. Or should be.

I believe the school has every right to use them on their property.

If you are ever "issued" a laptop from anyone, be it for work or education, you should have no expectation of privacy from those that issued it to you.

That said, of course, the school has an obligation to its students to notify them they should have no expectation of privacy. I wouldn't be surprised if that is part of a form student must sign to get the computer. If it isn't, it should be.

Even if you tell students they should no expectation of privacy, some will still do stupid and/or illegal things. If a student performs illegal acts on a school computer, is the school liable? Probably. That's why I am not sympathetic to students here.

We don't let our kids surf privately. Whatever they do on the Internet has to be POS-approved.

With the current technology, if you are naked in front of your webcam, you shouldn't be surprised that someone is watching. (Well, in MY case, I would be.) A piece of tape does wonders, as does the "shutdown" command.

If a school admin is "trolling" looking for visual titillation, that's another thing. The school should have guidelines to control this.

-Van

[Sir_Die_alot]

Remote-activated webcams are public knowledge. Or should be.

I believe the school has every right to use them on their property.

If you are ever "issued" a laptop from anyone, be it for work or education, you should have no expectation of privacy from those that issued it to you.

That said, of course, the school has an obligation to its students to notify them they should have no expectation of privacy. I wouldn't be surprised if that is part of a form student must sign to get the computer. If it isn't, it should be.

Even if you tell students they should no expectation of privacy, some will still do stupid and/or illegal things. If a student performs illegal acts on a school computer, is the school liable? Probably. That's why I am not sympathetic to students here.

We don't let our kids surf privately. Whatever they do on the Internet has to be POS-approved.

With the current technology, if you are naked in front of your webcam, you shouldn't be surprised that someone is watching. (Well, in MY case, I would be.) A piece of tape does wonders, as does the "shutdown" command.

If a school admin is "trolling" looking for visual titillation, that's another thing. The school should have guidelines to control this.

-Van

I think there is a big difference between software that tracks your habits when using the computer that does not belong to you and what is effectively a spy camera.

Edit: I'll take that a bit further. Do we really want wings of the government, even if it's just "education", policing what goes on inside our homes? I don't. I hope they make a very serious example of whoever thought this was a bright idea and everyone who signed off on it.

[Vandiablo]

I finally have seen a more balanced article on this.

I think there is a big difference between software that tracks your habits when using the computer that does not belong to you and what is effectively a spy camera.

One of my points is that ALL laptops running Windows with webcams these days are already spy cameras. If the laptop user doesn't realize this, then they should learn it quick.

I am thinking that this is not necessarily a case where someone is casting a wide net for things the school district would not approve of.

(CNN article) Doug Young, a spokesman for the Lower Merion School District, said the district would only remotely access a laptop if it were reported to be lost, stolen or missing.

Young said if there were such a report, the district first would have to request access from its technology and security department and receive authorization. Then it would use the built-in security feature to take over the laptop and see whatever was in the webcam's field of vision, potentially allowing it to track down the missing computer.

Young said parents and students were not explicitly told about this built-in security feature.

To receive the laptop, the family had to sign an "acceptable-use" agreement. To take the laptop home, the family also would have to buy insurance for the computer.

In an "acceptable-use" agreement, the families are made aware of the school's ability to "monitor" the hardware, he said, but it stops short of explicitly explaining the security feature. He termed that a mistake.

okay, so back to you...

(Sir_Die_alot) Edit: I'll take that a bit further. Do we really want wings of the government, even if it's just "education", policing what goes on inside our homes? I don't. I hope they make a very serious example of whoever thought this was a bright idea and everyone who signed off on it.

Well, the hysteria that this has brought on will certainly make the local politicians sever some heads, but what should be done is to inform the parents and students better of what is expected of the laptop users, and enforced limits on who/what/why the remote webcams are used.

Keep in mind that a lot of what is reported here starts with "the suit alleges that". For instance, "the suit alleges that school officials admitted to spying", which doesn't necessarily mean they said anything of the sort. They may have just said that they have used the remote webcam (to, say, recover a missing laptop) and then the suit calls it "spying."

And maybe the "improper behavior" just means violation of the "acceptable-use" which probably precludes viewing or sending porn. Look at this:

engaging in "improper behavior" in his home and it was captured in an image via the webcam.

So "it was captured" the suit alleges. Doesn't mean that the school district captured it. Kid could have made a indecent photo of himself and posted it somewhere, maybe another kid's facebook thingie or whatever.

I think too many people are hyperventilating without knowing the facts of the case.

I have a feeling that it was probably more that he was being an ahole in a chatroom with other students and they took his picture to prevent the "it was somebody else typing" defense. I would bet that this had already gone on for some time before they did this.

So there's MY rampant speculation without knowing the facts :lol:

For what it's worth, it also appears that the laptops are issued only to those who ask for them, not to all students. And to take the laptop home, the family has to pay insurance for the computer. So, if this is an evil plan to spy on all students, it seems like a pretty weak one to me.

Tell the kids: Use the laptop in a library or in the kitchen. Keep it out of your bedroom.

-Van

[ShadowHM]

In addition, except for what could be used to steal my identity or property, I frankly don't care what anyone knows about me. I have little to hide (nothing I can think of, offhand).

--Pete

I have been thinking about this statement. You are not the first to say this to me. And, while I applaud the sentiment, I can't agree. I do care what people know about me, because it can and always will colour their perceptions of me and mine.

First, there are plenty of places in my life tht are duct taped together, so to speak. I want to chose who gets to see that. I have many layers of friends and acquaintances and I want to retain the right to choose who gets what information about me.

Now it is entirely possible that some of the activities of my mis-spent youth have helped inculcate that feeling. The friend who played bridge with me on Tuesdays didn't need to know about the LSD or marijuana on the weekend. Had she known, I would have lost the pleasure of her company for that weekly bridge game. She would have been sure I was incompetent, at the very least. I would no longer have been judged on the merits of my play or my demeanor while playing. People are like that.

Additionally, I am also scarred by the presence of a few self-serving folks who have been part of my life. Just as in that classic warning: anything you say or do will be held against you. More than that, it will be held against someone you care about. I have learned, via the school of hard knocks, to be very very careful about what information is available to such people.

So while I salute your cavalier attitude, I certainly can't share it. The world is full of people who judge quickly and completely on small bits of information. It is human nature.

[LavCat]

Hi,
So, there's a follow up that admits to the spyware but denies that it was used. Bah.

The thing that really irritates me is that a school system is issuing laptops to students. There are schools in this country that don't have *basic* supplies. Laptops are not a basic supply.

As to privacy, the expectation of privacy is getting poorer and poorer as more technology capable of spying is disseminated. Of course, it's not the technology, it's how it's used that is at fault. Still, people need to figure out how to protect themselves. If a school district is capable of doing this, just think of what smart people can do.

--Pete

I used to live in Lower Merion and went to grade school (not high school) there, though I did know a high school teacher. Lower Merion was and probably still is one of the most affluent districts in the country. If the tax payers are OK with the expenditure, I am certainly in favor of the school -- any school -- giving whatever advantage to the students that it can. By contrast when I was in high school, students were not allowed to use calculators because not every student had one. Much better in my opinion to ensure every student has one. Students somewhere in the world, competing for the same jobs or college slots, will have a laptop/calculator.

Of course when I was fourteen I took an FCC Commercial Radiotelephone exam. Not only was everyone else in the Philadelphia Customs Building (where the FCC offices were) much older than I was, everyone else taking the test was using a slide rule. I was furious because the instructions said nothing could be brought into the test room. I had a government issued pencil, with which I was trying to solve log problems. I passed the test and got my license.

But as to the main issue, which is privacy: if guilty of breaking any laws, I hope someone goes to jail. This was not an issue of a security camera in a public space. I wonder if 1984 is in the school curriculum?

[--Pete]

Hi,

I have been thinking about this statement. You are not the first to say this to me. And, while I applaud the sentiment, I can't agree. I do care what people know about me, because it can and always will colour their perceptions of me and mine.

. . .

So while I salute your cavalier attitude, I certainly can't share it. The world is full of people who judge quickly and completely on small bits of information. It is human nature.

While I completely agree with what you've said, it is the final implication that I do not accept. I agree, what people think of you *is* based on what they know of you. Where I disagree is that what people think of you matters. When I started turning gray, my mother suggested that I dye my hair, my response was, "Why should I bother, I already have a wife and a job." :whistling:

I'm an irritating, arrogant, opinionated, sob and I know it. If that doesn't put a person off, then that's a pretty tolerant person and little that I've done in the past would matter. I'm not proud of everything I've done, but I can (and have) lived with the shame of my failings. And the statute of limitations covers the rest. :D

--Pete

[--Pete]

Hi,

If the tax payers are OK with the expenditure, I am certainly in favor of the school -- any school -- giving whatever advantage to the students that it can.

There are three issues here. The first is one of equity. I guess that it is a matter of how big a group you feel loyalty to, that you feel you belong to. If your 'kith and kin' only extends to your immediate neighborhood, then your attitude is understandable. If you embrace your country as a whole, then the fact that many inner city schools don't have basic supplies while some suburban schools give their students computers should bother you. And if you feel yourself to be a true member of humanity (I occasionally do) then the issue grows even bigger.

The second issue is one of boundaries. Where should the line be drawn? For instance, driving an automobile is a useful, indeed in some places an essential, skill. Should the school system be responsible for driver training? Should they supply instructors and vehicles? Should they give each student his or her own car? Even as a loan while they're learning to drive? What should the school system provide and what should the parents provide? And, from a social justice standpoint, doesn't it make sense that the school system should provide less and the parents more in the affluent areas? Most rich kids don't go to school hungry.

The third issue is whether giving kids technology is really to their advantage. A bit more on that below, but I'm pretty sure that teaching them how to think should take precedence over teaching them how to surf the net.

By contrast when I was in high school, students were not allowed to use calculators because not every student had one. Much better in my opinion to ensure every student has one. Students somewhere in the world, competing for the same jobs or college slots, will have a laptop/calculator.

During the time calculators were coming into use, I was a TA at GaTech and then WSU. One of the things I noticed was that it was almost impossible to get the calculator users to make estimates of what the answer should be. Mistakes like hitting + when they meant to hit X would be overlooked, and a final answer that was off by orders of magnitude was accepted. The new GIGO: garbage in, gospel out (thanks, Stan Kelly-Bootle). Whatever the holy machine says must be true. Those using their heads were much less likely to do things like that.

In general, I think it may be better to teach people how to use their heads, at least at first, than to give them crutches. Sure, while doing elementary school math, using a calculator makes it easy. But if the need ever comes up to do real mathematics, involving derivations, proofs, etc., the need to stop every few seconds to punch "2 X 2 =" will seriously hamper the logical flow.

Perhaps extensive exposure to technology will improve their training, but I doubt it will enhanced their education.

. . . everyone else taking the test was using a slide rule.

Humm, some kids had calculators but people were still using slide rules -- makes it about the early seventies? I was able to get my first calculator around '75 when I was in grad school. I remember lusting after the HP35 as an undergraduate -- I actually got to hold one, once:)

I passed the test and got my license.

Well, very belated congratulations. ;)

--Pete

[Kevin]

Much better in my opinion to ensure every student has one. Students somewhere in the world, competing for the same jobs or college slots, will have a laptop/calculator.

I have to comment on this. Calculators in math classes are stupid stupid stupid stupid. Calculators in physics, engineering, chemistry classes are a good idea.

What's the difference there? Math is the principal, it's the foundation and if teachers have competency they teach you how to do it without ever needing a calculator.

Now, when you are applying math to actual problems and the numbers matter, teach the person how to use the calculator/computer to do so and they should understand readily WHY they are doing what they are doing because they learned the math behind it. But for the concepts of math itself, all the way through differential equations and linear algebra (all the farther I got with it) you don't need a calculator to master it. In fact I firmly believe a calculator will hinder learning or if problems are crafted such that the numbers are brutal, then that's poor teaching.

But yes I wouldn't want someone doing physics problems that have any real application without one because that is the reality of solving those problems now and it's less valuable to have a contrived nice numbers problem than to have a real world problem that won't always have nice numbers, but they are there to learn physics, not math.

I think the distinction matters.

Now having the math class teach how to use the calculator/program I can deal with, to an extent. It would me that calculator is rarely ever out, and should never be allowed a test still. I still think that is better taught in the domain of whatever the application of the language of mathematics is for, but I understand the practicalities that would want it taught in the math class.

[--Pete]

Hi,

Calculators in math classes are stupid stupid stupid stupid.

Yep.

Calculators in physics, engineering, chemistry classes are a good idea.

Depends. I had a graduate adviser that told me to "Estimate the answer using your physical intuition, then actually calculate it. Use the result to improve your physical intuition." The ability to do rough calculations in my head made it possible to follow his advice, which in turn often lead to good ideas or helped me to avoid bad ones. I doubt this would have happened had I used calculators throughout my school years.

Also, it depends on the calculator you allow. I have an HP48GX. It pretty much has the whole sophomore college physics curriculum built in. Learning to solve problems is little more than learning which package to use and what constants to enter. This may lead to good grades, but it hardly leads to understanding the underlying concepts.

When actually using those fields, then a calculator or a computer should be used. Preferably three times. By three different people. Who don't like each other. That's how you keep bridges from collapsing.;)

--Pete

[Kevin]

Depends. I had a graduate adviser that told me to "Estimate the answer using your physical intuition, then actually calculate it. Use the result to improve your physical intuition." The ability to do rough calculations in my head made it possible to follow his advice, which in turn often lead to good ideas or helped me to avoid bad ones. I doubt this would have happened had I used calculators throughout my school years.

I agree with this as well, teach the thinking, teach the estimation and sanity checks. But I do think one of the failings of our education system is too many synthetic problems for the sake of easier teaching. You need to not only teach the knowledge but how to apply it is as well. I don't think calculators should be allowed for everything in those disciplines, but I do think it's good to do some problems, where real world numbers just get ugly because that is what they do, and then you can allow the software to handle that work for you. The trick on that is the balance. But hopefully if the basic math is taught correctly they have a fair bit of the skill set needed for the critical thinking parts anyway.

[--Pete]

Hi,

But I do think one of the failings of our education system is too many synthetic problems for the sake of easier teaching. You need to not only teach the knowledge but how to apply it is as well.

I'm with you there. I also think that too much emphasis is put on problem solving and too little in understanding in many technical fields. One question like, "Explain the properties of Maxwell equations that led to the special theory of relativity and how that theory resolved the problem. Extra credit for discussing earlier partial solutions and their failings." is worth fifty "Events A and B (blah, blah) in a reference frame moving (blah blah)." for testing and fostering an understanding.

I don't think calculators should be allowed for everything in those disciplines, but I do think it's good to do some problems, where real world numbers just get ugly because that is what they do, and then you can allow the software to handle that work for you.

Years ago I read in a book whose name and author I no longer remember: "Once you've designed the road, you can use a bulldozer to push the dirt around. Once you've solved the problem, you can use the computer to push the numbers around." In the BC (Before Calculators) days of my youth, we learned to just carry the numbers through, or assign them to a parameter. First, we solved the problem, then we did the arithmetic. It didn't matter if the numbers were made up to be easy or a real world mess except at that last step.

Of course, if you're talking about problems that are not solvable analytically (high pressure fluid dynamics comes to my mind -- but then again, that was my field), then the use of computer codes is valuable. Still, it is good to understand both what those codes do and how they do it or you might just be back to the GIGO problem. And crash a package on Mars.

The trick on that is the balance.

Indeed, it usually is.:)

--Pete

[ShadowHM]

Hi,
While I completely agree with what you've said, it is the final implication that I do not accept. I agree, what people think of you *is* based on what they know of you. Where I disagree is that what people think of you matters.

You must live on a much smaller island than I do. :P

[--Pete]

Hi,

You must live on a much smaller island than I do. :P

Tiny, indeed. :w00t:

--Pete