GC's Blog about wanting threat stats to matter for tanks.

[shoju]

Hey hey Lurkers.

This past week, Ghostcrawler posted a blog about the devs looking for a way to make threat stats matter for tanks. Now, I've been a part of the discussions on the official forums, and the one on Maintankadin, .

I haven't seen a lot of Lurker types in these discussions, and I'm hoping to have an interesting conversation with Lurkers (tanks and not tanks welcome) about the idea.

I have posted several of my ideas places, and after posting my most "complete" idea on MT, it appears that others (including Charsi from Bolty's guild, Critical Mass), have very similar ideas.

I don't want to make a discussion solely about the idea that some have been throwing around, I hope to hear from others as well about what their ideas would be. I'm posting my most complete opinion, just to have a reference of it, for any conversation we would have.

Hit and or Expertise tied to making a defensive cooldown work is IMO, TERRIBLE.

The amount of QQ that it would lead to, the amount of hit that we are drowning it, it's awful. I posted in a thread on the Tanking boards US side that I think that they are going to need to focus on 1 stat or the other for tanks. not both. Needing to use both stats in some combination for anything on a tank is just too much.

I want threat to matter. Vengeance is grossly overdone. Tying a stat like.... Expertise, to Vengeance, and scaling vengeance based off that would be fine.

The reason I prefer Expertise to Hit? The cap. If you Tie something to hit rating, then you have a definitive cap to work towards, and it becomes just another type of "unhittable" mechanic. Outside of a brief stretch in Early ICC have never been even remotely close to the hard cap on Expertise, and really I was only close at that point because of a sincere lack of luck in acquiring tanking upgrades + Glyph of SoT.

Tying Expertise in, would mean that there wouldn't be a hard and fast cap the way there is with mastery, or with hit. You are essentially able to allow the "bonus" to grow, and we won't be able to cap it, at least not until we are staring Hard Mode Deathwing in the face in full on ilvl596 heroic gear with perfect itemization, and reforging.

I like that they are trying to find a way to make it more interesting, I just don't like the analogy GC used. Needing hit / expertise to make my defenses work appropriately is garbage.

[Lissa]

Hey hey Lurkers.

This past week, Ghostcrawler posted a blog about the devs looking for a way to make threat stats matter for tanks. Now, I've been a part of the discussions on the official forums, and the one on Maintankadin, .

I haven't seen a lot of Lurker types in these discussions, and I'm hoping to have an interesting conversation with Lurkers (tanks and not tanks welcome) about the idea.

I have posted several of my ideas places, and after posting my most "complete" idea on MT, it appears that others (including Charsi from Bolty's guild, Critical Mass), have very similar ideas.

I don't want to make a discussion solely about the idea that some have been throwing around, I hope to hear from others as well about what their ideas would be. I'm posting my most complete opinion, just to have a reference of it, for any conversation we would have.

Hit and or Expertise tied to making a defensive cooldown work is IMO, TERRIBLE.

The amount of QQ that it would lead to, the amount of hit that we are drowning it, it's awful. I posted in a thread on the Tanking boards US side that I think that they are going to need to focus on 1 stat or the other for tanks. not both. Needing to use both stats in some combination for anything on a tank is just too much.

I want threat to matter. Vengeance is grossly overdone. Tying a stat like.... Expertise, to Vengeance, and scaling vengeance based off that would be fine.

The reason I prefer Expertise to Hit? The cap. If you Tie something to hit rating, then you have a definitive cap to work towards, and it becomes just another type of "unhittable" mechanic. Outside of a brief stretch in Early ICC have never been even remotely close to the hard cap on Expertise, and really I was only close at that point because of a sincere lack of luck in acquiring tanking upgrades + Glyph of SoT.

Tying Expertise in, would mean that there wouldn't be a hard and fast cap the way there is with mastery, or with hit. You are essentially able to allow the "bonus" to grow, and we won't be able to cap it, at least not until we are staring Hard Mode Deathwing in the face in full on ilvl596 heroic gear with perfect itemization, and reforging.

I like that they are trying to find a way to make it more interesting, I just don't like the analogy GC used. Needing hit / expertise to make my defenses work appropriately is garbage.

IMO, it's too easy to hold aggro right now if you know what you're doing. Right now, there is no trying to balance stats, it's just mainly stack mastery no matter what type of tank you are and then get some defensive stats after that. If you look around right now, neither hit nor expertise is really valued (even Mr Robot has told me to reforge away from expertise and hit). As I see it, your defensive and offensive stats should be more balanced for a tank, threat needs to matter, so an in opertune miss string (be it through parry/dodge of the boss or outright miss by the tank) has got to matter and right now it doesn't.

[Concillian]

I understand both viewpoints, but tend to side on defensive > offensive.

Tanks are about taking the hits, and they are going to want to gear around that.

Maybe at the min / max level hit and expertise are garbage and to be avoided, but I see the opposite problem.
Mastery is too good right now.
Tanking gear is mastery gear + reforge. It almost doesn't even matter what the other stat is. Some classses are considering items that are not using their primary stat because mastery is better (AGI ring with mastery, for example).
First and foremost, STR needs to be better for the shield classes. It's pretty decent for DKs right now, but the shield tanks need parry from STR increased. Mastery needs to be nerfed to compensate and bring it on a more equal level with parry and dodge rating.
Vengeance needs to scale, but I don't think it should be capped based on stamina. Cap it based on STR. Thus there is still an option to gem for threat. Parry scaling better with STR means gemming STR is not 100% wasted.

This averages out the differences between avoidance types. Mastery is more equal to dodge / parry.
Also threat stats get better. You have STR as a 1/2 snap threat / 1/2 parry option in addition to expertise and hit.

I don't really like expertise and hit being designed as the #1 threat stats. It just seems counter to my tank thinking. However, the game is too far dedicated to it to change at this point. It would require ridiculously crazy talents (a bunch of stupid X always hits type talents), amazing tank DPS scaling or a complete re-design to remove this, so it's just going to be like that.

[Lissa]

I understand both viewpoints, but tend to side on defensive > offensive.

Tanks are about taking the hits, and they are going to want to gear around that.

Maybe at the min / max level hit and expertise are garbage and to be avoided, but I see the opposite problem.
Mastery is too good right now.
Tanking gear is mastery gear + reforge. It almost doesn't even matter what the other stat is. Some classses are considering items that are not using their primary stat because mastery is better (AGI ring with mastery, for example).
First and foremost, STR needs to be better for the shield classes. It's pretty decent for DKs right now, but the shield tanks need parry from STR increased. Mastery needs to be nerfed to compensate and bring it on a more equal level with parry and dodge rating.
Vengeance needs to scale, but I don't think it should be capped based on stamina. Cap it based on STR. Thus there is still an option to gem for threat. Parry scaling better with STR means gemming STR is not 100% wasted.

This averages out the differences between avoidance types. Mastery is more equal to dodge / parry.
Also threat stats get better. You have STR as a 1/2 snap threat / 1/2 parry option in addition to expertise and hit.

I don't really like expertise and hit being designed as the #1 threat stats. It just seems counter to my tank thinking. However, the game is too far dedicated to it to change at this point. It would require ridiculously crazy talents (a bunch of stupid X always hits type talents), amazing tank DPS scaling or a complete re-design to remove this, so it's just going to be like that.

Go with Agi has to do with the conversion of Agi to straight Dodge (not Dodge Rating, but Dodge). This means for Paladins at 85, around 330 Agi = 0.7% Dodge (not sure what the conversion is on other classes). So as such, I know Paladins are looking for Agi rings, necks, weapons, and trinkets.

IMO, threat from various abilities is too high which is why neither Hit nor Expertise are valued. I know if I'm tanking against an equally geared DPS, there is no way they can catch me in threat unless the pRNG screws me.

[shoju]

I have more to add to this, but I want to let something sit out there. Last night, Tanking Halfus, I was #2 on DPS / Damage done on the encounter. Why? Because I was the halfus tank, so I was on him the whole fight, and he gets a bonus damage taken per drake. (we killed two) I pulled in over 24k DPS on the fight in a threat spec, with my normal tank gearing (the only difference between what I have on right now on the armory, and what I was wearing is bracers).

For mastery to be fixed to be more like dodge and parry, it would need to be changed so that for shield tanks a blocked hit is more than 30/40%. Mastery is king right now. I personally enjoy having a block mechanic that doesn't suck. I know it is too good, but it feels good to see that massive amount of block and know that it has a noticable impact on my TTL.

For me, the easiest solution is to just cut mastery in half, and see where it needs to move from there. Cutting it in half would probably mean good / great tanks can do what they have always done, and be just fine, while tanks who aren't "top notch" will need some threat stats. I know that is an overly simplistic solution, but that is the jist of the idea. Find a spot where Vengeance is enough for the creme de la creme tanks to cover there needs, and adjust to that. Once you have that, then everyone else can "choose" how much threat they need.

Hit rating is such a "meh" stat for me. How in the world can I miss the 50 foot tall freak of nature that I'm beating on? Seriously? He is right there. I can smell his B.O.! How can I miss him? That is a rant for another time though. Not landing an attack because the boss dodges/parries, that is more interesting than my character not being able to hit something bigger than the broad side of a barn.

[Concillian]

Hit rating is such a "meh" stat for me. How in the world can I miss the 50 foot tall freak of nature that I'm beating on? Seriously? He is right there.

Meh, this is the same kind of thing as you being able to actually carry around a dragon in your backpack. He has magic stuff just like you do, that magic stuff blurs the lines of what is real and not real and that makes it difficult to figure out what's really real and where he is really standing.

My thought on cutting back mastery was that adding parry scaling to STR would help make up for it. dodge would need something then though.

Should also aid PvP, where I remember rogue AGI / dodge scaling being way ahead of warrior STR / parry scaling to the point that beginning of expansion warriors > rogues, but end of expansion rogues > warriors primarily due to the gear-flation. Perhaps the DR was enough to correct this, as I haven't seriously PvPed in a long while.

[shoju]

I know, it is suspension of reality type stuff, it is just a silly concept.

I'm curious to see how things change with 4.2. I believe that they will need to do something. BiS Mastery based gear can already put a shield tank at block cap.

[Lissa]

I have more to add to this, but I want to let something sit out there. Last night, Tanking Halfus, I was #2 on DPS / Damage done on the encounter. Why? Because I was the halfus tank, so I was on him the whole fight, and he gets a bonus damage taken per drake. (we killed two) I pulled in over 24k DPS on the fight in a threat spec, with my normal tank gearing (the only difference between what I have on right now on the armory, and what I was wearing is bracers).

If you came in second in overall DPS on Halfus, that is something wrong with your DPSers, not something wrong with your damage output in a threat spec/gear. When we do Halfus on SR in the early Avarice group, all of our well geared DPS (those that have been raiding for the last couple months) are typically 30k+. Either you're pulling one drake at a time and killing it (which you should be able to handle multiple drakes at once unless you just started raiding BoT/BWD) or your DPS aren't doing something right.

For mastery to be fixed to be more like dodge and parry, it would need to be changed so that for shield tanks a blocked hit is more than 30/40%. Mastery is king right now. I personally enjoy having a block mechanic that doesn't suck. I know it is too good, but it feels good to see that massive amount of block and know that it has a noticable impact on my TTL.

Problem with that is how Mastery works for the Shield Tanks vs. the Non-shield Tanks. Having mastery decay would put limitations on DKs and Druids since they don't have the mitigation that a shield brings (for Pallies, they get additional DR equal to decimalized Block * 0.3, so 40% block would give a rough additional DR of 12% which is gigantic compared to the 6% DKs get from having no blood runes up and what Druids get since Warriors and Pallies are already in the high 50% range for DR while DKs and Druids are in the low to mid 50% range before the DR from Block is figured in).

For me, the easiest solution is to just cut mastery in half, and see where it needs to move from there. Cutting it in half would probably mean good / great tanks can do what they have always done, and be just fine, while tanks who aren't "top notch" will need some threat stats. I know that is an overly simplistic solution, but that is the jist of the idea. Find a spot where Vengeance is enough for the creme de la creme tanks to cover there needs, and adjust to that. Once you have that, then everyone else can "choose" how much threat they need.

Maybe cut the bonus per mastery for shield tanks, but DKs and Druids need the bonus they get from Mastery. The blood shield and savage defense make up for the difference in DR that Shield tanks get from Mastery by allowing DKs and Druid to not drop in health as quickly due to the absorbtion these two effects bring.

Hit rating is such a "meh" stat for me. How in the world can I miss the 50 foot tall freak of nature that I'm beating on? Seriously? He is right there. I can smell his B.O.! How can I miss him? That is a rant for another time though. Not landing an attack because the boss dodges/parries, that is more interesting than my character not being able to hit something bigger than the broad side of a barn.

Just because you can hit something because it's huge, doesn't mean that you can find and hit its weak spot. Think of it this way, just because you can hit a brick wall with your baseball doesn't mean that you're going to be able to hit that brick wall with said baseball and bring it down. Hit is there to find that weak spot.

[shoju]

If you came in second in overall DPS on Halfus, that is something wrong with your DPSers, not something wrong with your damage output in a threat spec/gear. When we do Halfus on SR in the early Avarice group, all of our well geared DPS (those that have been raiding for the last couple months) are typically 30k+. Either you're pulling one drake at a time and killing it (which you should be able to handle multiple drakes at once unless you just started raiding BoT/BWD) or your DPS aren't doing something right.

Everyone else was 18k+ for the fight. Pull both drakes, Kill 1, taunt and kill 2 from the halfus tank, then move to boss. the only people on Halfus from get go is one interrupter + tank. Rest of the DPS joins after 2nd drake is dead

Problem with that is how Mastery works for the Shield Tanks vs. the Non-shield Tanks. Having mastery decay would put limitations on DKs and Druids since they don't have the mitigation that a shield brings (for Pallies, they get additional DR equal to decimalized Block * 0.3, so 40% block would give a rough additional DR of 12% which is gigantic compared to the 6% DKs get from having no blood runes up and what Druids get since Warriors and Pallies are already in the high 50% range for DR while DKs and Druids are in the low to mid 50% range before the DR from Block is figured in).

I agree wholeheartedly. What I mean is, If you reduce the amount of times that a Shield tank blocks, each block should mean more, Because, unlike Druids and Dk's our mastery only effects melee damage, while BLood Shield (and I think Savage defense, but I could be wrong because I don't play a druid) effects both magic and melee.

Maybe cut the bonus per mastery for shield tanks, but DKs and Druids need the bonus they get from Mastery. The blood shield and savage defense make up for the difference in DR that Shield tanks get from Mastery by allowing DKs and Druid to not drop in health as quickly due to the absorbtion these two effects bring.

That's what I meant. Specifically speaking of paladins, since I can't comment on warriors just yet, as my warrior tank is still 74.

Just because you can hit something because it's huge, doesn't mean that you can find and hit its weak spot. Think of it this way, just because you can hit a brick wall with your baseball doesn't mean that you're going to be able to hit that brick wall with said baseball and bring it down. Hit is there to find that weak spot.

Yeah, I just really don't care for hit rating at all. I much prefer dodge / parry mechanics to miss mechanics personally. It seems more "interactive" than just "miss", and we already have glancing/block mechanics on bosses that serve the "weak spot" type of thought.

[Durabull]

I'm a long time lurker but first time poster here, but just wanted to chime in my opinion here, because this is something that I am greatly concerned about. I run a 9/13 25 man raiding guild with a secondary 3/13 weekend/casual group, and we have very good tanks and dps. Our dps frequently rank in the top 50 on world of logs for dps output. Having tanked for all of BC and Wrath, getting many server first including H Lich King etc, and doing a lot of tanking in cata, but going dps after the first couple weeks of cata, I have the benefit of being on both ends of the spectrum - dps and tank.

How I feel about tanking is basically this: The more gear you acquire, in general, the less you get hit, and when you do get hit, you get hit for smaller amounts. What this leads to is less vengeance. Unfortunately, less vengeance means less threat, getting hit less means less rage (if you are a warrior like myself) and here we are back at square one, rage/vengeance starvation, exactly where we were in wrath and BC with simple rage starvation. So you have dps, who have doubled or tripled their output since the start of the expansion, and tanks who have either stayed the same or dropped slightly with their gear scaling. Unfortunately, many of the heroic raid bosses DO hit extremely hard and thus maximum avoidance and mastery is required to down some of these difficult fights. So the problem comes in when your dps have doubled or tripled their dps output, but tanks have actually scaled down a bit on their threat with the addition of better gear.

I have always felt that tanks should be rewarded for having better gear with better threat, not the other way around. There are a few solutions to this, one of which would be to give tanking gear a threat modifier stat and have that modifier increase based on something else, possibly mastery since that is valuable for any type of tank and basically every tank stacks it. So as a tank acquires better gear and gets more mastery, his/her threat also increases. There is also some value to giving tanks a bit of baked in expertise and hit. Not cap necessarily, but enough that, should they choose to go all out mastery/avoidance/stam, they aren't "whiffing" every other hit.

Now on to the 2nd part of this, which is dps threat management. One thing really bugs me, and that is that there are 2 classes that have absolutely no threat reduction, while others can either drop threat completely or significantly reduce it, or have baked in threat reduction in their talents. Those 2 classes are warriors and Balance druids. Basically, I am a very highly geared fury warrior, sitting in 4 piece heroic t11 with many other heroic pieces, currently totally ilvl 368. During cooldowns, I push 50-60k dps. When not in cooldowns, roughly 20-24k. Overall, I average roughly 28k dps on fights that I have 100% uptime on the boss. So if I was a hunter or a warlock, I would be ok with that amount of burst dps, since I could feign death or soul shatter, or a mage with invis and images etc, but I'm not. I retain that threat for the entire fight unless I die. It is extremely frustrating when you are competing and trying to rank on fights, but you are limited by your tanks threat, and you know that your tanks are pushing as hard as they possibly can to keep up, but are limited by being well geared and the system in place.

So with wrath and cata, blizz has sort of "homogenized" the classes. This is a bit sad, but it's also a good thing because it brings us closer and closer to balance. The one glaring thing that they have not homogenized that really needs to be rectified is the threat dumps available to each class (or lack thereof).


The botom line, or the TL;DR, is that tank threat needs to be less about the amount of damage they take and more about the tanks skill and gear level (and it needs to INCREASE with gear, not decrease). Granted, you will always have terrible tanks and terrible dps, it's part of the game. I see dps in pugs pushing literally only 5-10k, while I am pulling 25-35k. To me that seems a little bit absurd, however I am glad that Blizzard has made a game where skill, research, and class knowledge still matters greatly. I just wish that applied more to tanks than it currently does.