[split] Stormrage Lurker Guild Discussion - Formerly known as Cat Beta

[Frag]

PS If you reply with another post containing the word "fuck", I will put you on my ignore list. And I will petition for you to be booted, if not from the guild, from the fora. If you can't be civil, be quiet.

I've been regularly visiting this thread all day, don't see any signs of an edit, and the only f-word on this page I see so far is yours. Also, threats, even of correct action, should be avoided whenever possible as they are the opposite of civil.

What are we missing that you saw?

~Frag

[Treesh]

PS If you reply with another post containing the word "fuck", I will put you on my ignore list. And I will petition for you to be booted, if not from the guild, from the fora. If you can't be civil, be quiet.

I've been regularly visiting this thread all day, don't see any signs of an edit, and the only f-word on this page I see so far is yours. Also, threats, even of correct action, should be avoided whenever possible as they are the opposite of civil.

What are we missing that you saw?

~Frag

It wasn't in this thread, but there was one a while ago in one of the guild forums, iirc. I'll see if I can dig it up.

Edit: Can't find it now. Must have been edited or else I'm remembering wrong. =D

[--Pete]

Hi,

What are we missing that you saw?

His reply to one of my earlier attempts to bring sanity to this mess. On a forum that you, probably, and I cannot visit.

--Pete

[Mavfin]

This seems like a case where Lav said something that irritated Tal, and Mav chimed in where it wasn't

1.) wanted
2.) needed

I felt that it wasn't the place for what Tal said, and I made a comment, and Tal replied that we should get the thread on-topic, I agreed with him, and that should have been the end of it.

i.e. I didn't like his post, same as you didn't like mine. Do I have less right to say anything than you? No. Do we really need to drag all this out in the public forum? No, not really. I vote we lock or delete this entire derail and be done with it, as it serves no purpose.

[Bun-Bun]

I hate to see this bickering within a group of people who have so much more in common than they have differences. I guess it's human nature to stress the divisive issues and ignore the unifying ones.

I don't think there is any fault to be assigned to anyone. No one has gone out to insult or disrespect anyone else. Different people have different opinions, and the modern 'philosophy' is to polarize and demonize. I would have hoped that the Lurker ideal was a bit higher than that. Perhaps it is, and a few folk just lost track for a moment.

Perhaps what is happening is inevitable. I'm only familiar with one other case, AoH years ago when EQ (IIRC) came out. A feud started between those who felt the EQ AoH players (many of whom had never even seen the website) were the 'true' AoH and those who thought only the people who actually participated in the guild were the true AoH. When the dust settled, many of each, and some in the middle (myself included) were gone.

I think you're greatly overestimating any frictions currently present, at least inasmuch as they affect how any of us plays WoW.

Perhaps it is the nature of the beast, perhaps it is a change in the people, but there was a time when you could spot a Lurker because s/he was doing strange things, trying strange tactics, and playing with strange builds, all out of curiosity. Now, there is no noticeable difference between a Lurker and any other player. That's not bad, that's not good, it's just changed. Some regret the change. I do. But the way others play has no bearing on how I play. And that seems to have been lost in the fury.

There are a raft of game design decisions that make Diablo-style variants much more difficult in WoW, for reasons of gameplay and time availability. And there are still a some of us that try strange things.
Much of my exploration has been with alts, which recent design changes have mitigated against.

I'll have to disagree with your statement that you can't see the difference in Lurkers. There is a degree of integrity and relaxed play in Lurkers that is sadly lacking in much of the WoW playerbase. Perhaps that's not the axis of change you were going for, but I must protest the generalization.

I will not venture a guess why Bolty started all this so long ago in D1 days. But I will say that it has always been a refuge from the inevitable bickering of guild fora. When the Lurkers guilds were set up during the WoW beta, I did not voice my objection because I thought they would have been temporary. Had I been around when the game went gold, I would have been worried about Lurker guilds, for the guilds and the site were overlapping entities, neither containing the other. And it was that precise situation which caused the problem long ago in AoH and is causing the same problem here.

I think it was clear fairly early on that the guilds are not the site and the site is not the guilds. I'm still not convinced there's a problem here.

I have no solution to offer other than tolerance for how others play and respect for those who were once (and may again be) your friends.

I'll try.

[Kevin]

I felt that it wasn't the place for what Tal said, and I made a comment, and Tal replied that we should get the thread on-topic, I agreed with him, and that should have been the end of it.

i.e. I didn't like his post, same as you didn't like mine. Do I have less right to say anything than you? No. Do we really need to drag all this out in the public forum? No, not really. I vote we lock or delete this entire derail and be done with it, as it serves no purpose.

I love your selective memory. I really do.

The forum and the guilds have been divorced for some time now, really. None of the admins or old admins have their mains in a Lurker guild anymore. Just alts, if any at all. <shrug>

That was your first post after the derail. Where are you saying it should be back on topic? Where are you saying that it wasn't the appropriate place for Tal's comment?

No you are taking a pot shot "None of the admins or old admins have their mains in a Lurker guild anymore." Which reads to pretty much everyone "The guilds suck, so the admins left".


So why public? Because this game is more than just a game. There are a lot of personal relationships involved here.

I'm jumping in on this specific point because your response to Shoju does not match up with what I saw in the thread. What Shoju saw is what I saw. You chimed in, your first response to what happened with Tal and LavCat, with what could very easily be taken as a snide comment and based on Tal's next response, was taken that way. How did you help the situation with your FIRST post, what I have quoted above? Do you really think that was the way to say what Lav and Tal said weren't in the appropriate place?

Was the thread already derailed? Sure. Has Lav said the same thing to Tal before in public threads? Yes. Should Lav be stating that publicly? Debatable, because the games played by people are a big part of what keeps the forums a place people come to. How things happen in game matter to how people interact with each other. Lav should be able to voice opinion. Open discussion on how members of the forums would like the guilds to be run is healthy. I know that several people that are now somewhat regular posters on these forums came to the forums through the game. So I don't see the guilds not supporting the forums.

[--Pete]

Hi,

First, thank you for a civil and rational reply. If we can keep it at this level, then perhaps all is good.

I think you're greatly overestimating any frictions currently present, at least inasmuch as they affect how any of us plays WoW.

All the more reason not to let passion turn this into a feud -- from either side.

And there are still a some of us that try strange things.

I'm sure there are. And I'm sincere in asking; as part of on line guild activities? Is there any organized craziness like, for instance, the Seven Samurai group in D2? If so, then my apologies. I can only base my observations on what I read here and what I see (and occasionally hear) while online.

I'll have to disagree with your statement that you can't see the difference in Lurkers. There is a degree of integrity and relaxed play in Lurkers that is sadly lacking in much of the WoW playerbase. Perhaps that's not the axis of change you were going for, but I must protest the generalization.

I'm sorry you took it that way, but in the context it was said, I'll still stand by it. When I've inspected players, I find that the Lurkers are by and large just like anybody else in terms of gear and build. From the events scheduled here on the fora, from the few reports on those events, and from the general discussions, I find that they are also just like everyone else in their goals and desires. I fully agree that the Lurkers I've interacted with are good people. That has not changed. But I think my context made it clear that I did not mean that.

I think it was clear fairly early on that the guilds are not the site and the site is not the guilds. I'm still not convinced there's a problem here.

Yeah. That was the case with AoH, too. Indeed, since the powers that be in EQ wouldn't accept 'angels' or 'hell' in a guild game (I thought it was an MMO, but apparently it was Sunday school), even the names of the two were different. Advocates of Honor, IIRC.

I don't think there should be a problem here. But either there is one, or a lot of people have way too much time on their hands. Is a Lurker an active member of an in-game guild who never shows up in the fora (other than to sign up for raids) or is it an active poster on the fora who doesn't even play the game or some hybrid of the two? Personally, I think that question is stupid, because Lurkers is big enough to be all of those. And 'no true Lurker' would dis another player for any legit playing style.

Thanks for taking the pledge.

--Pete

[Bolty]

Hykim the Diplomat, indeed.

There are a raft of game design decisions that make Diablo-style variants much more difficult in WoW, for reasons of gameplay and time availability. And there are still a some of us that try strange things.

This is really the heart of the matter, in my opinion, and Bun as usual gets to the core of the situation.

World of Warcraft is a fundamentally different game than the Diablo series (thus far), and those differences are what drive our actions in the game, and by extension, this forum. It's been a long time since Diablo II has been released, and there have been some games out since that were similar in design, but didn't quite capture Diablo gameplay the way we were used to. Torchlight is most definitely the closest it gets, but it lacked the critical multiplayer component that was so essential to bring us all together in the first place.

When World of Warcraft was released over 5 years ago (holy crap), I agonized for a long time about the incorporation of guild structures on the Lurkers. Simply put, I recognized that those of us who had known each other for years wanted to play together, but part of me also realized that a guild relationship wasn't going to work completely in a Lurker environment. What happened over the next few years was indicative of that - those who preferred the guild arrangement with their fellow Lurkers stuck around, and those who didn't moved on. It's a shame that this presented such ill will in some cases, but for all the cases of hurt feelings, there were many others that were an amicable parting of ways. Diablo didn't have guilds; it didn't require a select group of people to get together at specific times to accomplish very hyper-specific goals. It was this big toy box that came with 1,000 buttons and you got to push whichever ones you wanted whenever you wanted to have a good time. WoW doesn't work that way. So you take this big bunch of players who are used to the Diablo system and dump them into WoW, and hey! Guess what? It didn't work for everyone.

That doesn't make WoW bad. It doesn't make the Lurkers bad. I had always assumed WoW was this temporary thing anyway; maybe 2 years, 3 tops, until Diablo III was out and we could all get together on that again and start up the whole biz - strategizing, griping about bugs, trying strange builds and combinations; the whole nine yards.

Watch Blizzard design Diablo III with raid bosses and screw it all up. Who knows. Here we all are, about a decade since Diablo II, without anything other than WoW to really latch on to as a group since then. As a result, WoW has changed us, thusly changing the site, and changing our dynamic.

I guess I can sum this all up with "I can't wait for Diablo III." Or something as cool/interesting for us to sink our teeth into.

[Bun-Bun]

And there are still a some of us that try strange things.

I'm sure there are. And I'm sincere in asking; as part of on line guild activities? Is there any organized craziness like, for instance, the Seven Samurai group in D2? If so, then my apologies. I can only base my observations on what I read here and what I see (and occasionally hear) while online.

Alas, there are no such things. Between splitting the people inclined to such things across servers and the time consumed with the raid goals of much of the guildies, the critical mass to do things like that isn't there. Add to that the obstacles WoW's design places in front of any ad-hoc group, and it's darned near impossible.

If I may pontificate on the game deisgn for a bit: the three tiers of WoW content all have hurdles to "organized craziness". Soloing is largely quest driven, which is once and done; hard to keep a group synchronized with that. Five-mans need four or five people with specific specialization demands; if three people are available, it's a nonstarter, and if six show up someone's left out. D2 was much more flexible with scaling content and no requirement for a tank-healer-dps trinity. Raids, of course, require even more people and lockouts complicate things further.

All of that can be overcome, but the higher bar has, IMHO, driven people back to the intended designed activities, or to other games.

When I've inspected players, I find that the Lurkers are by and large just like anybody else in terms of gear and build. From the events scheduled here on the fora, from the few reports on those events, and from the general discussions, I find that they are also just like everyone else in their goals and desires.

Granted. There's very little wiggle room in the talent structure. If you change points around, there's no way to get a different play experience; you just don't do as well. When the world was young, and we all walked to Scholo in the snow, uphill both ways, you could spread your talents around the three trees and do something interesting. I had a tri-tree 'lock, and I didn't feel like a druid if I didn't put a few points in feral so I could tank on a whim. Nowadays though, it is the express intent of Blizzard that everyone goes deep in one tree, and specialize in one function. And if you're not deep in your functional tree, there's not enough in the other trees to make up for the lack in your designated area.

As for gear, the badge system creates much of the homogenization. Add to that the limited variety in overall gear, and you've got clones. At most levels of the game, there's usually one Best Thing, and since repetitive content is the rule for most of the life of an expansion, an awful lot of people wind up with that Thing.

In terms of goals and desires, that's a reasonable statement. The guild has been focused on providing end-game raiding opportunities for its members for years now. That focus has tended to weed out those who weren't as interested in that; conversely people who wanted more a more hardcore approach have moved on as well. I'm not saying this is good, bad or indifferent; I am saying that is a hard challenge to be all things to everyone.

Which is all really a longwinded way of agreeing with you, with the proviso that the game provides a limited palette of choices in many regards, and a set of choices was made many years ago that drew us to this end. I think many current <Lurkers> would relish some organized craziness if it were easier to fit into the game. I would.

[Tal]

Hi,
PS If you reply with another post containing the word "f***", I will put you on my ignore list. And I will petition for you to be booted, if not from the guild, from the fora. If you can't be civil, be quiet.

Hi Pete - That was in a private forum with a select group base who don't mind R rated language. As Zyn has used such language sparingly on the public forums I ask that you recognize that and not drag that into the public forum.

It is also abundantly clear that you don't care for Zyn. I would ask you (as I have already asked him) to try to co-exist. You don't have to like each other - you don't even have to read each other's posts - but you do have to get along with each other. At least publicly.

I'm sorry that you haven't seen some of the variant scum activities that Lurkers have taken part in. We've done all paladin raids in classic, an all druid raid in TBC and I've taken part in an assault on a horde town armed with pitchforks and torches.

Now on to the purpose of this thread. I moved the posts out because I was tired of the incessant sniping from Lavcat about a decision I made in 2005. Two thousand and five. For those of you keeping score at home that was five years ago. And, frankly, I'm tired of it. I make the best decisions I can with the information at hand and the best interests of what the majority of the guild wants in mind. I stand by those decisions. Have I made mistakes. You bet I have. Best I can do is to learn from them and try to avoid making them again. I'm only human.

I've gotten quite a few PMs from Mav explaining his decision to leave the guild and the server. I still don't understand his reasons - and frankly at this point I'm not trying real hard TO understand. I like Mav. I respect him and I wish him the best in whatever he does. But I'm not going to angst over decisions he made in regards to where the enjoyment is in this game for him. I have to worry about my enjoyment and the guild's health.

In closing - I'm not opposed to talking about Lurker culture and whether it is still alive and well in the Lurkers on Stormrage. I AM opposed to having snide remarks made about my ability to lead the Lurkers on Stormrage. It's disrespectful to me and the Lurkers who voted for me to take on the reins.

I've faced a lot of drama in this game and have tried at every turn to treat everyone fairly and equally. I've tried at every turn to make sure that EVERY Lurker has the opportunity to solo, to pvp, to explore, to raid 10 mans or to do 25 mans. And I will continue to do so as long as the Lurkers on Stormrage will have me.

-Tal

[--Pete]

Hi,

If I may pontificate on the game deisgn for a bit: the three tiers of WoW content all have hurdles to "organized craziness". Soloing is largely quest driven, which is once and done; hard to keep a group synchronized with that. Five-mans need four or five people with specific specialization demands; if three people are available, it's a nonstarter, and if six show up someone's left out. D2 was much more flexible with scaling content and no requirement for a tank-healer-dps trinity. Raids, of course, require even more people and lockouts complicate things further.

There's very little wiggle room in the talent structure. If you change points around, there's no way to get a different play experience; you just don't do as well. . . . Nowadays though, it is the express intent of Blizzard that everyone goes deep in one tree, and specialize in one function. And if you're not deep in your functional tree, there's not enough in the other trees to make up for the lack in your designated area.

As for gear, the badge system creates much of the homogenization. Add to that the limited variety in overall gear, and you've got clones. At most levels of the game, there's usually one Best Thing, and since repetitive content is the rule for most of the life of an expansion, an awful lot of people wind up with that Thing.

Which is all really a longwinded way of agreeing with you, with the proviso that the game provides a limited palette of choices in many regards, and a set of choices was made many years ago that drew us to this end. I think many current <Lurkers> would relish some organized craziness if it were easier to fit into the game. I would.

I fully appreciate all these points. That is a part of the reason that I say there is no fault in the matter. Just a difference of preference and playing style. I'll accept that, if you want to see the end content, you'll need to optimize your character, your play style, and your group. However, there were many play styles (dare I say variants?) that could scarce complete normal in D1 or D2. It's a matter of focus. If the focus is to 'beat the game' as fast as possible, then min-maxing is the way to go. Right from the start, where the race is chosen to maximize the potential of the class to be played. If the focus is to play around with the game, then maybe high end content will never be seen. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. In the beta, I played the game a fair bit, and that was fun. I also climbed a lot of mountains, just 'cause they were there and I could, and that was fun. I'd hate to be in the position of having to pick one over the other for myself, much less for others.

When the world was young, and we all walked to Scholo in the snow, uphill both ways, . . .

You forgot barefoot and over the rocks.

And, yes, may DIII get here soon, and may it be the worthy successor to I and II. (Hi, Bolty)

--Pete

[--Pete]

Hi,

As Zyn has used such language sparingly on the public forums I ask that you recognize that and not drag that into the public forum.

Since he chose to use that language the last time he replied to me, I felt I was justified.

It is also abundantly clear that you don't care for Zyn.

Actually, I'm totally neutral when it comes to Zyn except for what has happened in these two threads. Indeed, I think I tried to as helpful as possible to him when he was interested in banking, but I might be confusing him with someone else.

EDIT: I do know that he was the only Lurker on SR who asked me to find specific items in the AH and that I looked for (and often bought) those items right up till I started shutting that operation down. If you are referring to my questioning who Narthius was (one of Zyn's avatars) because he was regularly withdrawing 1000 g from the GB, I did that precisely because I could not determine that it was Zyn. I believe the player's note had something like Zynii. Once the situation was cleared up, I not only dropped all objections, but as I said above, started helping him get the mats he needed at a better price when possible.

I'm sorry that you haven't seen some of the variant scum activities that Lurkers have taken part in. We've done all paladin raids in classic, an all druid raid in TBC and I've taken part in an assault on a horde town armed with pitchforks and torches.

As I said, I only know what I see here and on line. If any of this has happened in the last couple of years, I've missed it.

Now on to the purpose of this thread. I moved the posts out because I was tired of the incessant sniping from Lavcat about a decision I made in 2005. Two thousand and five. For those of you keeping score at home that was five years ago. And, frankly, I'm tired of it.

"Exactly what a Lurkers guild should not be like, in my opinion. But I know my view has long been in the minority."

That is a snipe? And a snipe about your decision? Looks like a simple statement of opinion. An opinion that I think I share -- we should recruit for good people, not good players. A good person, willing to try, can become an adequate player. A great player, if he's a disruptive person, is going to be a pain forever.

I have to worry about my enjoyment and the guild's health.

Yes, you do. And you've done a wonderful job with the guild's health. I'm not so sure about your enjoyment, and I fear I might have had a negative influence in that. For that, I'm truly sorry.

I AM opposed to having snide remarks made about my ability to lead the Lurkers on Stormrage. It's disrespectful to me and the Lurkers who voted for me to take on the reins.

As am I. If I ever see such a post, you can bet I'll set my flamethrower to vaporize. But in this case, I think you've overreacted to a relatively benign post because of your history with the poster. I understand. I've done it, all too often. But, please, take a step back and think about it. Had I made that comment (and I could very well have made it), what would your reaction have been. I've never disrespected you, I've never questioned your leadership, I've always had the highest admiration for how you herd these cats. Would you still have taken offense, split it off, and made a big deal about it if I'd been the poster?

And I will continue to do so as long as the Lurkers on Stormrage will have me.

And I hope that it is as long as there are Lurkers on Stormrage. There are many good people in the guild, but I can't think of one who would be a better GM. But is that what this is really about.

Take care, remember: illegitimi non carborandum.

--Pete

[Jester]

Exactly what a Lurkers guild should not be like, in my opinion. But I know my view has long been in the minority.

I know this isn't really any of my business, since I haven't even got a guilded SR character, but I am interested in any discussion of what a "Lurkers guild should [not] be like". I've pondered that question myself, of course.

What is being said here? That the guild is too exclusive? Not exclusive enough? Too mainstream? Not mainstream enough? I'm afraid I don't know people and events well enough to figure it out from this thread.

-Jester

[Mavfin]

I love your selective memory. I really do.

I thought you and I had already covered everything in PMs, but, I guess one more shot at me is fine.

The forum and the guilds have been divorced for some time now, really. None of the admins or old admins have their mains in a Lurker guild anymore. Just alts, if any at all. <shrug>

That was your first post after the derail. Where are you saying it should be back on topic? Where are you saying that it wasn't the appropriate place for Tal's comment?

Actually, looking back, I can see where I made an error in who I replied to. Tal's post did seem out of place to me, but I didn't actually say that till he had replied to me. And, my first post makes no sense *as a reply to him*. It does make sense as a reply to Lavcat, as in "What's on the forum doesn't really determine/influence what happens in the guild(s), and hasn't for some time." Of course, the way I wrote it, and how I replied to things actually didn't reflect what I was thinking. I saw Lav's post, Tal's reply to him, and that popped into my head, as above. Except I didn't reply to Lavcat, I replied to Tal. Again, that was my error, and I see now what you're talking about.

Fair enough, and I'll drop it from here. If you read my comment as a reply to Lavcat, as I *should have* posted it, I feel it makes more sense, but, I didn't get it that way, and the whole chain starts from there.

Mea Culpa, I guess. If anyone wishes to chastise me further, my PM box isn't out of space yet.

Life goes on, and people's lives change. What once was, isn't, and that's not unusual.

[LavCat]

Exactly what a Lurkers guild should not be like, in my opinion. But I know my view has long been in the minority.

I know this isn't really any of my business, since I haven't even got a guilded SR character, but I am interested in any discussion of what a "Lurkers guild should [not] be like". I've pondered that question myself, of course.

What is being said here? That the guild is too exclusive? Not exclusive enough? Too mainstream? Not mainstream enough? I'm afraid I don't know people and events well enough to figure it out from this thread.

-Jester

Since you ask, there is a sticky just above this thread, which was formulated as a result of the unfortunate public difference of opinion to which Tal alludes. Yes, it has been close to six years ago, but I am still sad.

[Tal]

Hi,

Now on to the purpose of this thread. I moved the posts out because I was tired of the incessant sniping from Lavcat about a decision I made in 2005. Two thousand and five. For those of you keeping score at home that was five years ago. And, frankly, I'm tired of it.

"Exactly what a Lurkers guild should not be like, in my opinion. But I know my view has long been in the minority."

That is a snipe? And a snipe about your decision? Looks like a simple statement of opinion. An opinion that I think I share -- we should recruit for good people, not good players. A good person, willing to try, can become an adequate player. A great player, if he's a disruptive person, is going to be a pain forever.

Crusader's context is missing from the thread. Crus was complaining about the use of gearscore and the lack of organized selection process by guilds in regards to recruiting for raiding. I gave my opinion on how I would handle it had the Lurkers ever recruited for raiding

It's sad really because I happen to agree with Lav - if I were recruiting just to fill the ranks of the Lurkers on Stormrage then those wouldn't be the criteria I would use. But as I had already said in that thread and repeatedly - the Lurkers on Stormrage don't recruit. We've added people based solely on the fact that they're good people. And we do ask them to make an account here so I can give them access to the Stormrage boards.

I AM opposed to having snide remarks made about my ability to lead the Lurkers on Stormrage. It's disrespectful to me and the Lurkers who voted for me to take on the reins.

As am I. If I ever see such a post, you can bet I'll set my flamethrower to vaporize. But in this case, I think you've overreacted to a relatively benign post because of your history with the poster. I understand. I've done it, all too often. But, please, take a step back and think about it. Had I made that comment (and I could very well have made it), what would your reaction have been. I've never disrespected you, I've never questioned your leadership, I've always had the highest admiration for how you herd these cats. Would you still have taken offense, split it off, and made a big deal about it if I'd been the poster?

It wasn't the comment that upset me Pete. As you can see from my comments above Lav and I both feel that what I said wasn't the way to recruit for the Lurkers as they are now. What upset me was that over the course of five years Lav has popped up to give me grief about the way I lead on Stormrage. Despite not having a character in Lurkers in the intervening years. She has no experience in how I lead. She's not there.

If you were in the same position as Lav, no character in the guild and had taken potshots at my leadership over the course of five years I might have gotten upset at you too.

[LochnarITB]

Wait! Isn't this whole discussion moot? It was my understanding that Bun is our new overlord leader. At least that's what he said when he demanded last week's dues!

[Tal]

There has been a coup

[Bun-Bun]

There has been a coup

I have elected to use a front-man to forward my evil schemes.

[Crusader]

Off topic posts split off. Have at me.

I seem to remember you having an unhealthy obsession with Jack-o-lanterns?

That's all I got, sorry.

Not just Jack-o-lanterns... I remember some Halloween pictures yeaaars ago... The guy seems to spend as much time preparing for Halloween as a squirrel does for winter!

(for you city people, that's a lot of time... :p )

Ok, here's snipe! I recall a book I'm still waiting for that seems stuck in limbo. I still have your Librarian's Guide Tal, and I'm waiting for more still! :p