Bioware Goes To Hell.

[Kevin]

My main point was that it isnt' that bad if you leave it in context.

The point of GF is that you seem to like Blizzard products, and I seem to recall that you purchased War3 as well (may have you confused with something else). So, if that is the case you obviously aren't as bothered by it as you say you are since GF was making poorly worded remarks before War3 came out.



I would like to know how you think they should have handled it? Do you think they should just bend over backwards and fawn all over the place? I realize the value of customer service, and I realize that others see the comments of Derker as much harsher than I do (I really don't think he was that rude when you look at the rest of the context). I do hope that the customers that really find the ads or the comments a problem vote with their dollars. Bitching about things on web boards really doesn't have much of an impact.

[Kevin]

I did say most people, not all. I do find some of GF's stuff inflammatory either way. But you got that (hence the :P ).


Oooops, I had a typo and it said must, not most, but I think most people understood that. :)

[Kevin]

I don't see that difference as being that key. As you said, they both represent the company wether they say they do or not. Of course as I said in another reply, I don't think Derek's comments were really that rude. Some of them I thought were clearly meant as sarcasm. He could have said the same things and been more polite about it, yes. He even probably should have, but he is a person. As I said the only real response that you can have that will have any effect is to get the money to stop going to the company if you truly have an issue with it.

Most companies don't really care about their customers. They care just enough to continue making profit. The only company that I have really actively boycotted because the rude and horrible treatment of customers, and in this case employees and contractors, is Wal-Mart. They are a very very unscrupulus company the things they perpetrate are shocking at times. It isn't just one employee tired of pointless bitching and being a bit less polite than he should.

But I think both of our points have been made. I just don't see the behavior as all that rude, but I am very tolerant and not all that sensative.

[Roland]

My main point was that it isnt' that bad if you leave it in context.

The point of GF is that you seem to like Blizzard products, and I seem to recall that you purchased War3 as well (may have you confused with something else).  So, if that is the case you obviously aren't as bothered by it as you say you are since GF was making poorly worded remarks before War3 came out.



I would like to know how you think they should have handled it?  Do you think they should just bend over backwards and fawn all over the place?  I realize the value of customer service, and I realize that others see the comments of Derker as much harsher than I do (I really don't think he was that rude when you look at the rest of the context).  I do hope that the customers that really find the ads or the comments a problem vote with their dollars.  Bitching about things on web boards really doesn't have much of an impact.

They are mutually exclusive. They have nothing to do with one another. As you seemed to have missed my point in my above reply, let me restate it:

Geoff Frazier is not in any way connected to the development team for any Blizzard game. As such, his commentary holds no bearing on the thoughts / actions of the development team, and as such has no real direct impact or connection to any Blizzard games. He's a webmaster, plain and simple. The fact that he's an outspoken jerk at times, and a self-proclaimed PR man of Blizzard says nothing for their games.

Do I agree with his choice to be so brash? No. Do I agree with Blizzard's apparant tolerance for it? No. But, it can be said they have other things to worry about than policing their webmaster. The difference, for the last time, is that Derek French IS A DEVELOPER OF THE GAME. He is DIRECTLY involved with the games, and is going out of his way to post on the forums. Instead of being thrilled that he is doing this, I am instead revolted due to his abrasive nature. The very fact that he is a part of the development team speaks volumes against the company as a whole for the sole reason that he is directly involved with the game-making process.

I understand completely your point with Geoff Frazier. My point is that they have nothing to do with one another. Sorry.

As for how I think he should have handled it, how about with politeness? Class? A little dignity? How about saying, quite simply, "We're sorry that you feel so intruded upon with the inclusion of the ads. We released the new splash screen for the expansion early to give you a taste of it. If you feel it is that much of an issue, make a note of it and send your comments to the following address (yes, they have an e-mail contact for complaints)." How f-ing hard is that? That's ALL he had to say, and all he SHOULD have said. But instead he sinks to the level of your average B.Net lamer and lashes out at his customer base? Poor business tactics, poor personal skills, poor judgement, and poor personality overall. If it weren't for the fact that this guy is on the Development Team, I'd ignore him like I do GF when he gets abrasive. But he's not just some Joe Shmoe. He works directly with the making of the game, and as such, I don't want to have anything to do with him. It's as simple as that.

Ironic that you, along with others, feel I am making a big deal out of this, when you're making a bigger deal out of my complaint with his attitude. I'm really getting sick and tired of repeating myself, and having to defend my position. I'm sorry if I'm coming across as rude or short-tempered, but everywhere this has come up in discussion, it seems someone has to throw a flame of some sort my way, belittling me for my viewpoint. Now tell me, why is that? And isn't that FURTHERING my point about how he reacted?

Again, I'm not personally aiming this at you. But I really am getting sick of people turning this around on me. I posted this to see what others thought, and because I thought it was an issue others might take interest in. Nothing more. I did not post it with the intent of starting huge, worthless debates over my personal opinion. I'm sorry, but you can't just nitpick my OPINION without having damn good backing to it, which frankly no one has showed other than "it's not as bad when taken in context", which I admit is true to a point, but even so, it was still poor manners, nonetheless.

To be blunt: Why am I being criticized simply because I don't want to buy games developed by someone who thinks he's better than his customers?

[Roland]

I don't see that difference as being that key.  As you said, they both represent the company wether they say they do or not.  Of course as I said in another reply, I don't think Derek's comments were really that rude.  Some of them I thought were clearly meant as sarcasm.  He could have said the same things and been more polite about it, yes.  He even probably should have, but he is a person.  As I said the only real response that you can have that will have any effect is to get the money to stop going to the company if you truly have an issue with it.

Most companies don't really care about their customers.  They care just enough to continue making profit.  The only company that I have really actively boycotted because the rude and horrible treatment of customers, and in this case employees and contractors, is Wal-Mart.  They are a very very unscrupulus company the things they perpetrate are shocking at times.  It isn't just one employee tired of pointless bitching and being a bit less polite than he should.

But I think both of our points have been made.  I just don't see the behavior as all that rude, but I am very tolerant and not all that sensative.

You don't see it as being all that key. I see it as being key, because it's a distinction I chose to make. That is not to say I'm letting Geoff off the hook. I'm not. I merely differentiate the two because one is directly involved with the games, while one is not. That's the only difference, but it's enough to cause me to close my wallet to one, while keeping it open (or the possibility, anyway) to the other. I don't feel that Geoff should be allowed to be as abrasive as he is, but I've never bothered to take issue with it directly because, frankly, it's not worth my time. What makes this different is the very fact that a game developer is choosing to step on his customers. Old news? Maybe. Doesn't mean I have to like it or tolerate it.

You say he could have, and should have been more polite. So we agree. Then why are we sitting here debating? The fact that "he's a person" has NO relevance to allowing him to be a jerk. I admit, his comments are not as harsh as GF, and in all truthfulness they aren't THAT bad. Nonetheless, a line has to be drawn somewhere, and frankly, his attitude strikes me as one I would not like. I can see him making comments much worse than this, if he's in the mood for it, and frankly, I don't want to be shelling my money out to this guy if that's the kind of treatment I can expect. What if someone raised a LEGITIMATE complaint and he reacted the same way? Would you still be defending him?

I haven't really actively boycotted a company before, either, because like you, I am very tolerant. However, disrespect is NOT something I tolerate, ever. Money talks and bull#$%& walks, as they say. Things like this make it just that much easier to avoid getting games from Bioware. Does that mean I'll never buy another game from them? No. I'm not a fanatic, and they haven't burned me enough to make me do that. But, as I said originally, it WILL make me evaluate the choice of buying vs. not buying much more than I normally would.

As for companies I actively avoid, CompUSA and Best Buy are at the top of my list. Why? Horrible business practices and even worse customer service. Do I NEVER shop at either of these places? No. I do on a rare occasion shop at CompUSA, if I have to. I haven't bought anything from Best Buy in years, though, and don't intend to. And I will actively seek out other stores before going to CompUSA. Certain fast food places around here I avoid like the plague, due to poor customer service and/or poor quality of food. Same deal. Do I boycott the whole company? No, just the individual locations. Hence why I haven't fully boycotted Blizzard. They've given me plenty of reasons to be disgruntled, but admittedly not enough to flat-out boycott them. I did in fact buy Warcraft III, despite how I told myself I wouldn't. I decided, on a whim, to buy it, with the assertion that if I did not like it, I WOULD return it (which I NEVER do). Fact is, I gave it a chance, and let my grievances slip away for the time being so they wouldn't cloud my view of that game in particular. And you know what? I really enjoyed the game. And, besides, Bliz South does not equal Bliz North. As such, I decided to keep the game, and have been happy with that choice ever since. Now, the next Bliz North game, as well as WoW and SC:G all will have to win me over. It won't be a "it's a new Bliz game so I have to buy it" sort of deal anymore. They'll be under alot more scrutiny than I normally give them. Why? Lots of reasons, none of them needing explanation. Point is, I take things on a case by case basis, unless given damn good reason to do otherwise. Just like Black Isle dropped the ball on Black & White; because of that, I will be VERY skeptical of their upcoming B&W2, along with any other games by them, until they prove that they won't repeat the mistakes of their past. Same with Blizzard. Same, now, with Bioware (NWN is a dropped ball in itself in alot of ways, which thankfully Bioware has taken some pains to rectify; this latest bit only hurts that effort, however).

Are we coming to an understanding finally? ;)

[Roland]

Threats of violence are an EXCELLENT way to demonstrate maturity and intelligence, let me tell you!

Were or were you not one of the cheerleaders who has said before "I won't buy this because this" and then runs out on release date and buys it? Dramatic nonsense is just that.

I did in fact say I wasn't going to buy Warcraft III. I had no intention of buying it. But you know what I realized? Alot of things. For one, I was being an ass for holding Blizzard North's mistakes against Blizzard South. I also realized that Warcraft III just might be a good game. I also told myself that, if I didn't like it, I would return it. I had a week to decide, and I knew that from the first moment I played it I would know whether I was keeping it or not. I almost did return it, but I stuck it out for the first few days, and I ended up keeping it. I don't regret the decision.

Blizzard North and Blizzard South, despite having the same parent, are not the same development teams. As such, I cannot hold them to the same standards. Now, if Blizzard as a whole started proving to be crap, or running down the tubes PR-wise, then that would be a different story. I'm still ticked over Diablo II in alot of ways, and probably always will be. I still let that, rightly, affect my judgement of ever buying another Blizzard North game (and, to a small degree, any Blizzard game in general). But, unlike some people, I don't blindly drop the axe on things without good reason. I take things on a case-by-case basis. Which is really the only reason why I ended up giving Warcraft III a chance.

I wasn't very pleased with C&C:Tiberian Sun. As such, I haven't bought a C&C product since, despite rave reviews, and (now) 3 new C&C games since TS. I haven't bought a Black Isle Studios game since Black & White, and don't intend to unless they give me very compelling reason to. I was thoroughly disappointed with Arcanum (much the same way with Black & White; incredible potential, lost through poor execution), and as such haven't bought a Sierra game since.

Don't preach to me, Taeme (or do you prefer Spidey? Or maybe just "Troll"?). You're wasting your breath (as usual), and my time. If you have something constructive to add to this conversation, by all means, throw it in. If all you can add is your usual tripe, spare us all. Me especially.

[Kevin]

First, my apologies, on exactly what counts will be clarified in the rest of the post.

I know you said this wasn't directed at me personally, but I don't think I ever attacked your personal opinion. The only time I brought your personal opinion in on the matter was in regards to your attitude towards Blizzard and BioWare because of similar issues. You have explained that. I don't think there was any flaming going on either. I also addressed the developer vs employee in another post, PR is PR.

I should have edited the post you quoted above because most of what I was addressing you had addressed later in a response to another point (there are some disadvantages to threading, and I should have made sure I read the whole thread before I responded to any point of it). I also said that (and clarifed in a later post) that we just don't see the level of his rudeness on the same scale. So my opinion is that nothing wrong happened on either count. Obviously very far from your opinion.

I also said that people, such as yourself, should boycoot with your money (as that is the only truly effective method), companies that you don't like for whatever reason. My comment about bitching on web boards was not aimed at you. I apologize because I did not make that clear. This discussion is fine for raising awareness of what some may find an issue. As you point out, discussion is the better the road to take, even if you don't have issue with a little venting and rudeness. As I said in a response to another post, I think we have both made our points clear, and I am finished. I responded to this one, because I didn't edit my other response like I should have, and I do owe you an apology for comments that were not well stated (yes I see the irony here as well).

[Cybit]

Eh.

I think it was rude of him to do it, but lots of forum kiddies on their boards are people who think they are know-it-alls and will just whine about anything and everything, and as a developer, I might take it with a bit of salt, but he might have just gotten pushed over the edge about it.

[Roland]

First, my apologies, on exactly what counts will be clarified in the rest of the post.

I know you said this wasn't directed at me personally, but I don't think I ever attacked your personal opinion.  The only time I brought your personal opinion in on the matter was in regards to your attitude towards Blizzard and BioWare because of similar issues.  You have explained that. I don't think there was any flaming going on either.  I also addressed the developer vs employee in another post, PR is PR.

I should have edited the post you quoted above because most of what I was addressing you had addressed later in a response to another point (there are some disadvantages to threading, and I should have made sure I read the whole thread before I responded to any point of it).  I also said that (and clarifed in a later post) that we just don't see the level of his rudeness on the same scale.  So my opinion is that nothing wrong happened on either count.  Obviously very far from your opinion.

I also said that people, such as yourself, should boycoot with your money (as that is the only truly effective method), companies that you don't like for whatever reason.  My comment about bitching on web boards was not aimed at you.  I apologize because I did not make that clear.  This discussion is fine for raising awareness of what some may find an issue.  As you point out, discussion is the better the road to take, even if you don't have issue with a little venting and rudeness.  As I said in a response to another post, I think we have both made our points clear, and I am finished.  I responded to this one, because I didn't edit my other response like I should have, and I do owe you an apology for comments that were not well stated (yes I see the irony here as well).

I'm sorry if I sounded too harsh (and I admit, I probably did). It's just almost everytime I've had this conversation in the last 24 hours, it's a black and white split: some people completely agree with me, and some seem to have to take issue with my stance (ala Taeme, for example). I do apologize if I sounded like I was attacking you, as I said, I don't feel you were attacking me. Chalk it up to aggitated nerves. ;)

I understand (a bit more assuredly, now) that your comments about "put your money where your mouth is" was not directed at me specifically. It's just I keep hearing that. What don't people understand about "I will be doing just that"? And why is it that when I say it, people automatically assume I'm merely BSing myself? I'm not a bandwagon person. Don't paint me as one. (No, not directed at you. Just commenting in general.)

Regarding PR = PR, as I said, I agree wholeheartedly. The only difference is that I (openly) choose to differentiate between GF and DF (wow; what similarities!) based on where they stand on the corporate ladder. Or, rather, where they stand in how directly they influence the game. GF is, IMHO, a self-proclaimed PR man. However, having spoken with a few Blizzard employees in my time, I know that he certainly doesn't speak for all of them. That doesn't mean I let any of them off the hook for it, however. The only reason why I don't make a vocal issue out of it is because I don't bother with GF's posts 99% of the time, since I don't frequent those boards. If I did, I might take up the issue. And, as I've stated, since Geoff is the webmaster, and NOT directly influencing the game itself (and thus getting paid directly from the sales of the game), I don't let it affect my decision behind whether to buy or not to buy any upcoming games. I'm fine with you not following the same stance. I don't expect you to. It may make me look hypocritical, but I can assure you that is not the case. I do hold them both to the same standards, in regards to respect, et al. I just don't let someone who has virtually nothing to do with the game affect my decisions surrounding said game. See where I'm coming from?

I probably sound like this whole issue has got me in an uproar. It hasn't. My initial reaction has changed very little: I'm disappointed in how Derek came across, and how he handled himself. As such, I will be reconsidering any future purchases from Bioware based around him. It's as simple as that. I'm not losing sleep over it. I'm not itching to start a riot over it. I really don't care enough about it to make a huge issue out of it. Like you said, I can talk with my wallet, and that's what I intend to do.

I guess I'm just a little short=-tempered with people who seem to have this undying NEED to attack me simply because I took issue with his rudeness. Because, apparently, I must be full of s**t when I say I'll be reconsidering any purchases. After all, why would I be serious? I'm just jumping on the bandwagon. It's just crap like that from people who have NO IDEA who I am, nor anything about me, that really grates me. I just hate people making judgement calls on me when they don't know me, nor anything about me. It's a huge pet peeve of mine, and it never fails to truly piss me off. But, like I said, I know you weren't intentionally doing that, and I wasn't intentionally going after you for it. Your post was just as good a place as any for me to rant a little, since I was attempting to aviod continuing "discussion" with Taeme above.

Bottom line: No hard feelings. We have our difference of opinions, and that's fine and dandy. I certainly wasn't offended by you, and I hope I in return haven't offended you. And, there's one more thing we agree on: if you can't put your money where your mouth is, you shouldn't complain very loud. ;)

[Roland]

Eh.

I think it was rude of him to do it, but lots of forum kiddies on their boards are people who think they are know-it-alls and will just whine about anything and everything, and as a developer, I might take it with a bit of salt, but he might have just gotten pushed over the edge about it.

Perfectly unacceptable, as well. 'Nuff said. I understand WHY he did it. That doesn't mean I can allow it without saying something about it, or at the very least thinking to myself about it, that it was in fact a poor choice for him to make. I don't blame him for getting irritated. I gave up browsing those forums for that very reason: whiney know-it-all pricks who aren't worth the time it takes for me to click on a post. However, that's still no excuse for someone who's a developer of that game to basically disrespect his customers on the game's official forums, publicly. It's just unacceptable IMHO. That's all, nothing more.

[Yan]

....I haven't bought a Black Isle Studios game since Black & White, and don't intend to unless they give me very compelling reason to.....

I think you are confusing something. Black & White has no connection at all with Black Isle Studios, as far as I know. I guess that this was just a typo of some sort and I hope it really is, as it would be a shame to shun BIS because of a game they have and had nothing to do with :) .

Yan

P.S. And yes, Black & White really was very disappointing in many ways and I too will be very careful when considering to buy one of it's sequels (if you were talking about B&W that is).

[Zarathustra]

I will purchase the first expansion, if for only one reason: Floodgate Studios is doing it. This team is largely comprised of the crew from Looking Glass Studios that made the Thief series of games. They put quality products in the past, and I'm eager to see what they'll do with this one.

[Jarulf]

The 2nd link shows a lot of explanation from Derek, and then the quote that Roland posted.  Of course this was in response to someone who obviously doesn't read EULA's calling it my launcher, which is why Derek said, umm no, it isn't your launcher.

Forgive me for being unknowledgeable, but what is this "launcher" people talk about. The only way it makes any sense would be if it is some sort of program Bioware has on their servers or something. Otherwise nothg makes much sense. As for EULAs, bah, what on earth does that have to do with anything :)

[Taeme]

Still haven't bought war3 here.

I admit to downloading the demo, but that's it.

Well, me neither. Thought it was decent enough but not excited enough by the idea of playing it online.

But then I don't buy much.

[Taeme]

I did in fact say I wasn't going to buy Warcraft III. I had no intention of buying it. But you know what I realized? Alot of things

The point is, you said you wouldn't, then you rationalised yourself out of it. You're just like every other gamer, you throw down threats, you threaten to beat up people over the internet, you act like your will means something. But when it comes down to it, if lured to it, it doesn't change your thinking.

Throw it down after the fact. It's so easy to talk the talk, but when it comes down to it, what more does it mean?

But, unlike some people, I don't blindly drop the axe on things without good reason.

You call this a good reason? Oh, he mouths off a little in response to mouthy customers and it's a "Good reason" to give up something? (assuming you do, of course) Is it a bad game or not? Who cares about the developers and the programmers. They're just men. You ever talked to a programmer or a developer, seen how rough it is and how much hard work they go through? And they should just sit there, under all that stress, and just take people's lip because otherwise they might offend the old lady in you?

It's pure asshole-ish elitism, straight from the development teams.

I mean oh man, they're elitists and assholes because they act like NORMAL PEOPLE? The developers choose to be on their forums, to give people a piece of their mind and you want them act like faceless, personalities less drones who just take all the dung people fling at them? The people want them their. They want to know them, know their opinions.

Come on -- What the hell are you talking about? You think if someone showed up on the lounge and mouthed off to Bolty, and he gave them a bit of lip back, would you damn him for his 'elitism and assholeishness'. Would you? Did you?

And GF's behaviour should be a lot worse in your mind. He is an actual public liason in some capacity. His vicious, inflammatory behaviour doesn't bother me, but I wonder why the devil Blizzard would use such a mouthy bastard to show themselves to their customers.

Don't preach to me, Taeme (or do you prefer Spidey? Or maybe just "Troll"?).

I probably, genius, prefer to be called Taeme since I -- GASP -- have moved over my net usage to Taeme in every single instantance over the last six monthes. But wait, that was just your idea of a creative play to slip in a little call of "troll", right? Like it's some dazzling display of wit to hammer out an over-used term just because I happened to offend you by disagreeing with your comfy world view that completely excludes how reality works.

Would you claim to dislike dishonesty and being overly PC? I'm sure you would. Why does it end when someone states their mind to their customers? Which world does that one exist in, and which one does a love of freedom go in?

If all you can add is your usual tripe, spare us all.

Given your past, brethren, that glass house must be feeling mighty comfortable at the moment...

[Nystul]

The launcher is just software to start the game. I don't think this really has anything to do with ownership rights or EULas. Derek French is just claiming the launcher in the same way that you could say "This is my Guide." Since it's still possible to play the game under previous patches, and the game was relatively stable and bugfree (compared to industry standards anyway...) under the previous patch, and it's also possible to start the game under any patch without using the launcher at all, I think this is purely a PR issue and not a legal one.

-Nystul

[Whiggles]

As far as I am aware, Geoff Fraizer is more than just the webmaster. He has often stated that he is actively involved in design and balance decisions, and that "webmaster/web specialist" is just his "business card" title rather than a summary of his role at Blizzard.

I think the heart of the issue here (Bioware's advertizing) is not the actual practice of advertizing, but the way in which Derek French (and some others on various forums) have responded. The attitude seems to be "well, we made the game, so don't complain". I don't agree with that attitude at all. Adding advertisements to a game menu isn't particularly important, but what is important is that the entire rhetoric of certain individuals seems to be that the customers are not supposed to have opinions about what they've purchased. By advocating that type of attitude, the developers are just trying to put themselves in the cushy situation of being able to get away with releasing mediocre products.

[Occhidiangela]

For WC III. I figure I make big points with my son if I get to try it out. :) You see, I have not played WC III for many months, and he still enjoys it.

Looking to make his day. :)

[TaMeOlta]

I don't understand the problem ? I hafta move my mouse a little further to the left to click on "Play Game" ?? I just noticed the add last night - I had DLed the patch Friday I think :)
I kind of like that it was there , since I enjoy the game it gives me something to look forward too .

EDIT : Spelled "mouse" wrong .... must have been distracted by my "update available for MSN" ;)

[ak404]

I think it was rude of him to do it, but lots of forum kiddies on their boards are people who think they are know-it-alls and will just whine about anything and everything, and as a developer, I might take it with a bit of salt, but he might have just gotten pushed over the edge about it.

I'm inclined to agree with Cybit. From what I know of Bioware (admittedly, it's only the Infinity Engine collection here because I can only play NWN offline), they usually bend over backwards to make their customers happy and throw themselves into the communties that their games create. They happily make suggestions to mods and let the community know about mods they've planned out as well. And so far, it's worked out great; for the most part, Bioware can do no wrong, and if they do, the customers let them know beforehand (because usually Bioware likes to get feedback). The customers are civil to company, the company is civil to the customers. This is a lot more than Blizzard North's ever given to the Diablo II community, post-LOD, and I think Bioware's beginning to discover exactly why Blizzard North has retreated to the top of the mountain to herm.

Like real people, programmers have a breaking point. You release a patch people've been waiting for, and people whine about a complete non-issue. You can only take so many stupid know-it-all emails and forum posts demanding you change something that's completely harmless before you feel the need to say, "Now look here, you..." because...well, look, you're enjoying the game, right? Nothing's gone wrong yet, it's the same game you've been enjoying for the past year, yes? So why whine about a launcher which is outside the game and its ads for games that...oh, I don't know, you might just like when you know it has nothing to do with your enjoyment of the game?

And you have to admit, some people who play role-playing games (we call them power gamers and munchkins) don't take to subtlety too well, especially when they're surfing on their "whiny know-it-all" waves. They need to be cut down a few notches.