Spell Casting

[Raven]

Hi all,

Currently I'm leveling up my new mage. I'm having a great deal of fun with him, but I have one problem. The amount of mana I waste casting spells that miss *sighs* Sometimes it looks to me like I'm directly lined up with the monsters and the spell just miss's them by a small fraction, at which point I waste more mana before I eventually manage to hit something.

Is there a trick to this? Is there someway of positioning the mage so that your less likely to miss with spells such as Firebolt and Holy Bolt?

Lastly I've read about Arty Sorc's and Battle Sorc's as two common builds for a D1 Sorc. However nowhere can I find what these builds are, how to design them and what advantages/disadvantages one has over the other. Could someone please enlighten me on Arty and Battle Sorc's?

Thanks in advance for your help.

Raven.

[Quark]

Ho boy ... haven't talked about classic D in awhile, but since no one else has posted yet I'll try to answer to the best of my knowledge.

IIRC (and I may not), Magic helps determine to hit% for spells. So adding to that should help. More importantly, watch how you shoot your spells.

1 2 3 4 5
X X X X X
X X Y X X

From this horribly deficient diagram, say you're the mage at Y. The number easiest to hit would be 3, followed by 1 and 5. 2 and 4 would be harder to hit. (And don't forget to skew this graph for the isometric view). So basically try to keep your shots as straight along the tiles as they can be.

Arty/Battle Mages:

The theory behind an Artillery Mage is that spells/mana comes first, and everything else is secondary. AC is often ignored in this build, leaving it with power but risk. It is more challenging than Battle (but not necessarily worse, you just have to be more careful).

Battle Mages tend to focus on getting a high AC. It leaves your spells weaker, but it also means you can tank like a warrior. This is the build where you can teleport into a room, shoot fireballs with abandon, and still come out alive (assuming your equipment is good enough). Hence, less skill overall, since it's harder to die (again, not necessarily better/worse, it's just a matter of preference).

Of course, if you want to play a true Arty Mage, you could go for the Beyond Naked Mage rules. The simplistic rules basically say that you wear only cursed items, meaning you are truly relying on your spells to save you. Beyond Nake Mage Rules if you want more on that.

Anyone who's played classic D more recently could go into infinitely better detail.

[Bolty]

Quark covered it pretty well - increase your magic if it's low, and watch your firing angles. It's simply fact that some angles of fire will hit more often than others. With practice, you get a lot better at feeling-out these angles.

Arty vs Battle (aka Tank - a name change suggested years ago on the now defunct DSF because people thought that "Battle" meant melee combat) Mage:

Tank Mages RULE! Well, let's just say that if your goal is sheer power and speedy gain of exp, Tank Mages are superior to Arty Mages. Arty Mages are more about finesse, and are "pure" mages in the sense that they can dish out a lot of firepower, but can't take it.

Be careful if you play a Tank Mage for a long period of time and get used to just teleporting blindly into a room full of monsters, blasting them dead in seconds, and teleporting to the next room. If you then switch to an Arty Mage, you'll die fast. They can't do that, you see - that's why Tank Mages level up faster.

Many will argue (rightly so) that Tank Mages are boring to play as a result - fact is, for sheer ability to gain experience points per unit of time, no build or class is faster. Arty Mages can be a lot more fun to play simply because it's possible to actually die. ;)

Standard Tank Mage uber/dream equipment (excuse me if I'm off a bit, I have not played this fine game seriously in more than 3 years):
Dreamflange (standard) and Civerb's Cudgel (when fighting triple immunes, kills them dead fast)
Stormshield
Royal Circlet
Awesome Full Plate of the Stars
Rings/Ammy that gives max resists and gets you to 90 strength to wear armor

Standard Arty Mage uber/dream equipment (same disclaimer applies)
Um, some kind of staff, right?
Naj's Light Plate
Other stuff

Hoo boy, yeah, I'm a "D1 Expert" all right. I can't remember anything anymore. Is it obvious I played Tank Mages in D1? Anyone here remember ol' Bolterflash (lvl 50, retired)?

-Bolty

[DeeBye]

You haven't lost your touch. Other than the "gaps" in the Dream Arty Gear section, you basically nailed it right on.

The other gear recommended for an Arty mage would be:
Helm: "Hiddened" Thinking Cap
Weapon: Either an Arch-Angel's Staff [of something good], or a Dreamflange/shield combo
Rings, Amulet: Magic/Mana, Magic/Mana, and more Magic/Mana

Tank Mages RULE!

I do recall a post on the old DSF by Claudio saying that a properly equipped/played CAT-Rogue can outdo a Tank Mage. I'm not a huge Rogue fan, so I was neither able to confirm nor deny this claim. But considering the source, I'd say the claim is a bit skewed in favour of Rogues :)

Many will argue (rightly so) that Tank Mages are boring to play as a result

Tanks are boring?!? Nah... Megaubersuperultradestructo-Mages are fun to play :)

Fast in, fast out. Leave a pile of bodies in the wake.

I just have this link to add.

My Tank Mage Equipment Guide

[Nystul]

I do recall a post on the old DSF by Claudio saying that a properly equipped/played CAT-Rogue can outdo a Tank Mage

That's just silly. Only a properly equipped/played arty mage CAN outdo a tank mage! :) Rogues are probably the best class for killing hell/hell advocates and soulburners though.

On a side note, I think Claudio was one of the main people who pushed for the change from 'battle mage' to 'tank mage'. I stuck with 'battle mage' for a long time, but I must admit the arty/tank analogy is pretty accurate to the concepts behind the styles.

[Raven]

Thanks to you all for your assistance,

hmm looks like my m/player Mage is going to be an Arty Mage as I've invested every point into Magic so far. I'm going to be offline for most of today, and stuck at home, so methinks I'll build up a tank mage in S.P mode to see how the two compare, at least at the early lvls.

I might hold off on the Beyond Naked Mage however until I have a little more experiance with the game and mages in general.

Warmest Regards

Raven

[Nystul]

Let's see if I can actually get my reply in the right part of the thread this time :)

Most discussions about playing styles like 'tank' and 'arty' are not really based on the early game. The distinction between these two becomes more obvious with time. Your priorities can change at various spots in the game, and there is certainly nothing wrong with changing styles as you go. I guess my point here is that even if you are planning to play a Tank Mage, you could still put all of your level up points into magic for quite a while. Many experienced players would start Tank Mages exactly the same way that they start Arty Mages, and the character would start to become distinguishable after level 20, when enough "good" items are found to have to make some serious decisions.

The other thing I wanted to mention, in case you don't know, is that it is possible to play multiplayer characters solo without an internet connection. One way to do this is to select the 'Direct Cable Connection' option from the multiplayer menu.

[Thecla]

Well, I think lvl 20 is generous: I would say all (not majorly twinked) sorcerors go through the normal game as 'arty' mages. It's only afterwards, say above clvl 25, that the distinction between the heavy-plate-wearing tanks and the rag-wearing artys becomes meaningful.

I was always convinced -- and still am -- that in D1 tanks are overall "better" ("faster", "easier", "more-uber", "more-uberly-uber", or whatever) than artys, just because you *can* have it all in D1 -- high AC, max resists, and super-destructive spells. Trading a couple of lvls of fb for the possibility (however remote) of lava maws chewing on your bones was never an even trade. It's the same with rogues: high ac rogues are just "better" ("faster", "easier", "more-uber", or whatever) than their low ac counterparts (even though I loved to play the low ac archer-rogues).

And, speaking of rogues, as the long lamented Sorceror (wonder what he's up to now?) used to say, the best weapon for a rogue (and possibly even a warrior) is a dreamflange. The key for an effective all-around high-lvl rogue was to get your magic stat close to 160. Then I think they did compare very well with mages, or anyone else, in hell/hell. But, even though they have the easiest time vs triple immunes, they can never get the fast cast speed of mages.

[Nystul]

Well, I think lvl 20 is generous: I would say all (not majorly twinked) sorcerors go through the normal game as 'arty' mages. It's only afterwards, say above clvl 25, that the distinction between the heavy-plate-wearing tanks and the rag-wearing artys becomes meaningful.

I'd generally agree. Developing Tank Mages isn't really my area of expertise anyway :)

I was always convinced -- and still am -- that in D1 tanks are overall "better" ("faster", "easier", "more-uber", "more-uberly-uber", or whatever) than artys, just because you *can* have it all in D1 -- high AC, max resists, and super-destructive spells. Trading a couple of lvls of fb for the possibility (however remote) of lava maws chewing on your bones was never an even trade.

I would suggest that anyone who thinks lava maws are more dangerous than soulburners is not really an arty mage, regardless of what setup they use. We start with the low level scenario where playing like a tank doesn't work very well at all, and we move towards the Dream Gear scenario where one can argue that the mana and spell level differences between an arty and tank are almost meaningless. Somewhere in between those two scenarios, I tend to quit the character and start a new one... so perhaps that is why I don't see tanks as being more powerful. But I do think that in the Dream Gear scenario, a skillful arty can usually still clear levels as fast as a skillful tank. A skillful Geezer is another story!

It's the same with rogues: high ac rogues are just "better" ("faster", "easier", "more-uber", or whatever) than their low ac counterparts (even though I loved to play the low ac archer-rogues).

In my experience, it can be very costly in terms of life/mana and/or resistances to try to fit a rogue for high AC by level 30. Once the right gear can be found though, it's probably the way to go.

And, speaking of rogues, as the long lamented Sorceror (wonder what he's up to now?) used to say, the best weapon for a rogue (and possibly even a warrior) is a dreamflange. The key for an effective all-around high-lvl rogue was to get your magic stat close to 160. Then I think they did compare very well with mages, or anyone else, in hell/hell. But, even though they have the easiest time vs triple immunes, they can never get the fast cast speed of mages.

In addition to the casting speed issue, the mana pool is a lot smaller, and item recoveries more tedious. Still, it is amazing how well a rogue can do simply by imitating a mage (with the proper gear, at least). I think Sourceror's minimage even switched to the Cudgel against soulburners and advocates, although I would probably prefer to use a bow in those situations. I think Sourceror's minimage was also about 15 levels higher than any rogue I've ever built...

[Thecla]

I would suggest that anyone who thinks lava maws are more dangerous than soulburners is not really an arty mage, regardless of what setup they use.

I don't know where soulburners came into this. But I would suggest that any arty-mage who thinks that lava maws are less dangerous to him than they would be to a tank-mage is not really in their right mind. ;)

a skillful arty can usually still clear levels as fast as a skillful tank

Well, I entirely agree with this; of course, the *perfectly* skillful arty never suffers an ignominious death to lava maws.

In my experience, it can be very costly in terms of life/mana and/or resistances to try to fit a rogue for high AC by level 30. Once the right gear can be found though, it's probably the way to go.

I really don't think lvl is the limiting factor -- it's just a matter of when you can find (and wear) a good awesome plate.

In addition to the casting speed issue, the mana pool is a lot smaller, and item recoveries more tedious.

The mana pool is also an equipment issue -- it's just a matter of how long it take to acquire good +mana/+all/+magic items. A well-equiped high lvl rogue easily has a more than adequate mana pool, though of course a sorceror (even a BNM) never has to worry about that. (and item recovery is easy for any class with sc.)

Still, it is amazing how well a rogue can do simply by imitating a mage (with the proper gear, at least).

Yes -- I always thought rogues made better (i.e. less overpowered) mages than sorcerors ever did.

I think Sourceror's minimage even switched to the Cudgel against soulburners and advocates, although I would probably prefer to use a bow in those situations.

Yup -- a cudgel instead of a bow vs triple immunes is pure heresy IMHO. May he burn in Hell.

I think Sourceror's minimage was also about 15 levels higher than any rogue I've ever built...

His minmage was about lvl 40 then? :P

[SteinHerz]

I do recall a post on the old DSF by Claudio saying that a properly equipped/played CAT-Rogue can outdo a Tank Mage.

Well, I do not have experience at all with Rogues, still Bono showed me the playing style of his clvl 45 Rogue in a co-op which I believe can be the closest to a "Battle" Mage style.

According to him, his goal was to have "A tank mage with improved melee capability"

Investing enough gear to have 160+ Magic for maximum fireball accuracy against BKs, Tank AC, playing mostly with CC/KsoV ( vs Maws in co-op ), switching for a Swiftness bow to stun advocates on 16.

IMO, it proved to be a highly effective and overpowered playing style.

[Occhidiangela]

Versatility.

I could play warrior, archer, or magician depending on which set of jewels I was wearing that day. Accesorizing is the key. :)

With one Character, I could use pretty much any skill in the game, and defeat pretty much any monster in the game.

Versatility? Gotta like it. :)

[diablo1ks]

QUOTE

I think Sourceror's minimage was also about 15 levels higher than any rogue I've ever built...


His minmage was about lvl 40 then

HE HE ! ! !