Weird experiments

[Barsine]

I'm curious to know... any of you sorcerors ever tried this?

Jarulf's Guide, pages 12 & 13 (Sorceror's recharge stafff skill and resurrect staves):

Sorcerer
The skill of the Sorcerer works in the following way:

1. if current charges is equal to max charges or max charges is equal to 0, exit
2. x = Rnd[clvl/qlvl(book)] + 1
3. decrease MaxChrg by 1
4. add x to CurChrg
5. if CurChrg < MaxChrg, goto 3
6. CurChrg = MaxChrg

It seems strange that it is not the qlvl of the spell on a staff, and I wonder what happens for a spell like resurrect where the qlvl value is -1. Any information about this is appreciated.

I know, all that formulae seems too complex at first sight, but read it throughly again: is it me... or the game will go into an infinite bucle (and crash?, be careful) when the Sorceror will try to recharge a resurrect staff?.

Did Jarulf ever received feedback about this or is it still pendant?.

[Nystul]

I probably should leave this one for Jarulf, but this is what I think would happen: Step 2 actually generates a random unsigned integer, divides it by [clvl/qlvl(book)], takes the remainder, and adds 1. With a negative divisor, the results are implementation defined, so I'm not absolutely positive what would happen. What I think would happen in this case is that the remainder will always be considered positive. So the end result probably is that the results using a -1 qlvl are identical to the results using a +1 qlvl.

There are still a few ways to crash Diablo, but I don't think this is one of them.

[WildViking]

hello Barsine,

we did that test once with a bountiful staff of res (18 charges)

Each time the staff was drained entirely and reloaded by the sorc, result was : 18 - 9 - 4 - 2 - 1 - 0 .

To me that looks like the part of the formula, that will go negative is skipped entirely, thus leaving x=1 - which will half the charges each time (rounded down if necessary).

AFAIK that result was mailed to Jarulf, but it hasn't made it into an update yet

BTW, the game didn't crash

hope that answer pleases your curiousity

Wild

[Jarulf]

>2. x = Rnd[clvl/qlvl(book)] + 1

The Rnd[x] function returns 0 for negative values of x. So in this case (were a negative value actually IS handed to the Rnd function in the code), x will end up as 1, just as allready posted i this thread. It will be fixed in any future version of the guide whenever that may happen. Yes, I do have 1.63 on my hard disc, it is sort of in the middle of being done. It is NOTHING major. Just several small things such as this.

[Barsine]

First of all, thanks to all of you who have replied.

Mmm... I thought that step 2 in Sorceror's (or Sorcerer's?) recharge skill would outcome a negative number, and then... infinite bucle. Blizzard's programmers did a fine work this time.

Erm... Jarulf, if you are still reading, and now that you have mentioned a new version of your guide... may I suggest/ask about?:

When you calculated the probabilities of finding unique items, How many normal monsters did you suppose to be on dlvls 1 and 2?. If I'm not missing anything, in your guide's latest version you only mention that they are "a bit less". Will we know this in your guide's new version?.

Also, I have version 1.62 of your guide in here, and in page number 135, about Fire and Lightning damage on bows: "Any extra fire or lightning damage from any item other than the bow will be added despite the fact that this is a ranged attack". First, this can only happen with Sparkling Mail, and then... an strict interpretation of this would outcome in Sparkling Mail having ranged capabilities, and not only with lightning bows...

Will there be a bugs list section in your guide, such as the one in the Lurker Lounge?. I mean: the first time I hear about that bug in fire bows that prevents monsters from regenerating... it surprised me that I hadn't read anything about this before, in your guide.

Well, maybe I'm being a little touchy... at the end, you get no profit for your guide, and you write it in your free time. Just thanks for your guide.

[NiteFox]

Yes, I do have 1.63 on my hard disc, it is sort of in the middle of being done. It is NOTHING major. Just several small things such as this.

Does this mean I'll have to spend a few more pounds on printing out the new guide :P

Ah well, providing there is no significant change in length, I should just get away with printing out the pages that have just been changed :)

[Jarulf]

>Erm... Jarulf, if you are still reading, and now that you
>have mentioned a new version of your guide... may I
>suggest/ask about?:

Heh, I have been saying I will do a new version since last summer or spring. Seems I am inspired by Blizzard's latest patch in that aspect :)

>When you calculated the probabilities of finding unique
>items, How many normal monsters did you suppose to
>be on dlvls 1 and 2?. If I'm not missing anything, in
>your guide's latest version you only mention that they
>are "a bit less". Will we know this in your guide's new
>version?.

Ehh, I will not add anything about the numbr of monsters. It varies a bit and I don't think I ever tried to find the exact variance or average. If I recall correctly the reason for fewer monsters is in much due to those levels actually being slightly smaller in size.

I don't remember how I wrote the program to calculate the chance for unqiues to drop. I did assume some specific number of monsters on each level and I think I used a smaller value for the first few levels, but I can't tell for sure or what exact values I used. And it won't be changed in the guide. the "new" version will almost exclusively be smaller bug fixes, corrections and such. No new material. Hence a 1.63 (1.62 is latest no?).


>Also, I have version 1.62 of your guide in here, and in
>page number 135, about Fire and Lightning damage on
>bows: "Any extra fire or lightning damage from any
>item other than the bow will be added despite the fact
>that this is a ranged attack". First, this can only
>happen with Sparkling Mail,

Yeah, probably. However, the game would treat any such item with lightning or fire damage that way. I didn't go through and check exactly what items existed. Sorry :)


> and then... an strict
>interpretation of this would outcome in Sparkling Mail
>having ranged capabilities, and not only with lightning
>bows...

Hmm. I might remember wrong, but I think you need to spawn a lighting or fire attack to start with and only fire or lighting bows do that. If so the game will add in the damage from other items apart from the bow though. That is how I recall it is and what is meant in the guide.


>Will there be a bugs list section in your guide, such as
>the one in the Lurker Lounge?. I mean: the first time I
>hear about that bug in fire bows that prevents
>monsters from regenerating... it surprised me that I
>hadn't read anything about this before, in your guide.

Is that bug not in the guide??????

The guide will NOT however have any bug list (as I said, it is a small update). Even for a larger update, that is not something I will add. In part because I don't feel able to make a correct and complete one. And I most definately would not be able to do it for Hellfire. In addition, most bugs are explained together with whatever information is related to them. Finally, the bug list on LL actually also contain "problems" and strange workings of the game which is not nessecarilly bugs.

So no, you will never see a list of bugs in the guide. I do insert information about bugs related to the informatiojn though if it would make the information wrong or confusing.

>Well, maybe I'm being a little touchy... at the end, you
>get no profit for your guide, and you write it in your
>free time. Just thanks for your guide.

Always good to hear someone thanking for it :)

As for the "profit", I want it that way. it is not meant to give any. It was done as a "hobby" sort of for me, not as work. And I also like to share the knowledge and infromation I and others have collected about the game. After all. I use such guides for various games I play all the time. Not more than right that I give back once for some game :)

I do use to many smileys don't i? :lol:

[Geladrius]

and then... an strict
interpretation of this would outcome in Sparkling Mail
having ranged capabilities, and not only with lightning
bows...

Hmm. I might remember wrong, but I think you need to spawn a lighting or fire attack to start with and only fire or lighting bows do that. If so the game will add in the damage from other items apart from the bow though. That is how I recall it is and what is meant in the guide.

This could easily be tested, with the help of an early patch for Diablo ( I think it will work with any version of Diablo below 1.8, maby 1.7 ) which had not fixed the "-of thieves" bug. The way I understand things I'm reading, start a network (NOT b.net) game and equip a weapon that deals extra elemental damage and the sparkling mail. Then on a target character equip a " of Thieves " item and start scribbling down damage taken from that weapon. After a large number of attacks have been taken and recorded, find the average... then unequip your "of thieves" and again, start scribbling attack damage dealt and find the average. In order to be fairly accurate, you'd need a large number of attacks (I'd say somewhere nerar 100 to 150) for both. Only to be attempted when you have too much time on your hands.

Anyways, I might be misunderstanding this discussion of ranged attacks and sparkling mails completely... so I'm gonna be quiet now.

[the Langolier]

This could easily be tested, with the help of an early patch for Diablo ( I think it will work with any version of Diablo below 1.8, maby 1.7 ) which had not fixed the "-of thieves" bug. The way I understand things I'm reading, start a network (NOT b.net) game and equip a weapon that deals extra elemental damage and the sparkling mail. Then on a target character equip a " of Thieves " item and start scribbling down damage taken from that weapon. After a large number of attacks have been taken and recorded, find the average... then unequip your "of thieves" and again, start scribbling attack damage dealt and find the average. In order to be fairly accurate, you'd need a large number of attacks (I'd say somewhere nerar 100 to 150) for both. Only to be attempted when you have too much time on your hands.

This sounds like it would simply test the bug related to "of thieves", not extra elental damage. Also, the damage you are talking about would be too small to even see a difference anyways. Elemental damage is halved in PvP attacks. One half (PvP) of one half (of thieves) out of 1-10 damage from sparkling mail is insignificant.

I think Jarulf has it right on, but it sounds like the wording has been misinterpreted. If anyone *does* need to test it, simply equip a character with a bow of burning. Elemental attacks have animations, so with a sparkling mail, the targeted tile should produce both a fire and a lightning attack. Similiar to the way the mail works with swords, only the tile where the arrow connects should there be a lightning attack, the arrow itself will not appear to have been fired by a lightning bow (only with the fire-tip).

Edit: Well, a quick test with flamedart and sparkling mail shows that this is not the case. Even with the fire elemental bow, no lighting animation is spawned when equiping the mail.

[Nystul]

Based on Jarulf's post, you would not expect a lightning animation to spawn. Hence the need for an elemental bow to make the animation. I'd guess that means that Sparking Mail would only work with *lightning-based* elemental bows, but maybe I'm the one whose misinterpreting. It would be totally impossible to test by pure gameplay: in addition to the reasons you have brought up, lightning arrows do very unpredictable damage because of the multiple hit issues.

[WildViking]

we did that test once:

had a lvl 1 rogue shoot with different short bows (plain, fire, shock ) at different targets ( warrior with low AC, high AC, with shield, with resist.... you get the picture)

one result was that the sparking mail adds the specified damage to "electrical" type bows, and to those only.

yes, I had alot of time in those days :)

Wild

[Geladrius]

JArulf, if you read this, do you have any kind of an inkling what may cause only lightning (and not fire) damage in invoke this oddball effect? BTW, I'm beginning to pour over your guide (6.2 :)) and it's extreemly fascinating... especially to a newbie Diablo player... anyways, the only theory I would have might be that Fire and Lightning damage have seperate subroutines for their damage inflictions. *shrugs* That's as simple as many of my VB programs... anywho...

[Jarulf]

JArulf, if you read this, do you have any kind of an inkling what may cause only lightning (and not fire) damage in invoke this oddball effect? BTW, I'm beginning to pour over your guide (6.2 :)) and it's extreemly fascinating... especially to a newbie Diablo player... anyways, the only theory I would have might be that Fire and Lightning damage have seperate subroutines for their damage inflictions. *shrugs* That's as simple as many of my VB programs... anywho...

Ehh, not sure what you ask. You mean that fire damage from say an armor would not add to a fire bow?

I think there is no such non weapon item though. Not sure if the game handle such items even.

Or did I missunderstand you?

[Geladrius]

one result was that the sparking mail adds the specified damage to "electrical" type bows, and to those only.

What I meant was why wouldn't it add to fire-type bows?

(I think I may be misunderstanding your misunderstanding's misunderstandment (if that's a word) and if so, we are all hopelessly lost in the gaping jaws of the English-Grammar-and-Dialect-demon (fearfully, and commonly, called the EG&D demon) and will surely perish by trying to figure out what everyone else meant when we aren't sure as to what me meant ourselves!)

[Jarulf]

one result was that the sparking mail adds the specified damage to "electrical" type bows, and to those only.

What I meant was why wouldn't it add to fire-type bows?

(I think I may be misunderstanding your misunderstanding's misunderstandment (if that's a word) and if so, we are all hopelessly lost in the gaping jaws of the English-Grammar-and-Dialect-demon (fearfully, and commonly, called the EG&D demon) and will surely perish by trying to figure out what everyone else meant when we aren't sure as to what me meant ourselves!)

You mean why it does not add lightning damage to the fire bow? Because it is not adding up lightning damage on a fire bow :) It is part of adding up the lighting damage, it will add up the various palces in the character data were it is kept. Lighitng damage from the mail (and other non weapon items) is kept in one place while the weapon lightning damage on another (if I recall correctly). The game simply add them up. That is why it works like it do.

[BanditAngel]

For a normal bow:
Create arrow
Calculate arrow damage as the sum of all available physical damage sources

For a lightning bow:
Create and calculate arrow as above
Create lightning effect and attach it to arrow
Calculate lightning damage as the sum of all available lightning damage sources

For a fire bow:
As lightning but replace "lightning" with "fire"

For a melee weapon:
Create and calculate a physical blow
Check for lightning & fire damage sources on all gear and create and calculate if found

Hopefully that is a nice simple and accurate explanation of how it works, and therefor why Sparking Mail only stacks with lightning bows but still stacks with any melee weapon.

[Jarulf]

For a normal bow:
Create arrow
Calculate arrow damage as the sum of all available physical damage sources

For a lightning bow:
Create and calculate arrow as above
Create lightning effect and attach it to arrow
Calculate lightning damage as the sum of all available lightning damage sources

For a fire bow:
As lightning but replace "lightning" with "fire"

For a melee weapon:
Create and calculate a physical blow
Check for lightning & fire damage sources on all gear and create and calculate if found

Hopefully that is a nice simple and accurate explanation of how it works, and therefor why Sparking Mail only stacks with lightning bows but still stacks with any melee weapon.

Yeh, that is basically it although technically you don't "attach" damage or effects to the arrow. The damage is calculated as the damage hit something.

Technically there are two arrow missiles, normal one and "elemental" one which is used for the fire and lighting arrow. When it hit, the game will calculate the damage. For the normal one it just do a physical attack. For the elemental arrow, it makes a physical attack, and then depending on if the arrow is a fire or lighting one, spawn the proper attack with that damage type (adding up all sources for that damage type, that is fire or lighting). Thus the fireghting damage is done in its own attack so to speak.

I don't remember (and can't with a quick glance at the code) if it would technically be possible to spawn both a fire or lighting attack for the same arrow. I think it would be possible for a melee attack, but not an arrow, it is either one or the other. I think in Hellfire they either made it possible or removed the ability (or something else with it) since I recall discussing that change with the Hellfire programmers. Unfortunately I don't remember. Still, I think it was for melee attacks only. That is, if you had a sword doing fire damage and you had an armor adding lighting damage. I think it was in part graphics related though. This has nothing to do with the rest of this thread though :)

So in your nice and simply summarey, just change so that "lighting effect" and lightning damage to happen upon hit instead of being attached to the arrow, pretty much as with melee and you are correct even technically :)

[Geladrius]

Ah, I do think you now make sense! Erm... well, most likely you do.... yeah, I get it now! woohoo! *does a jig* I UNDERSTAND SOMETHING! YEAH!

[Baceolus]

I'm curious to know... any of you sorcerors ever tried this?

Jarulf's Guide, pages 12 & 13 (Sorceror's recharge stafff skill and resurrect staves):

Sorcerer
The skill of the Sorcerer works in the following way:

1. if current charges is equal to max charges or max charges is equal to 0, exit
2. x = Rnd[clvl/qlvl(book)] + 1
3. decrease MaxChrg by 1
4. add x to CurChrg
5. if CurChrg < MaxChrg, goto 3
6. CurChrg = MaxChrg

It seems strange that it is not the qlvl of the spell on a staff, and I wonder what happens for a spell like resurrect where the qlvl value is -1. Any information about this is appreciated.

I know, all that formulae seems too complex at first sight, but read it throughly again: is it me... or the game will go into an infinite bucle (and crash?, be careful) when the Sorceror will try to recharge a resurrect staff?.

Did Jarulf ever received feedback about this or is it still pendant?.
[right][snapback]2639[/snapback][/right]

Doono if this "problem" is already solved, here is my conclusion:
I tested it - at least in V 1.09 the Staff recharge Skill of the sorc doesn't have any effect. Charges didn't changed at all. (Still 0/12 after "recharged")

[Yogi_Baar]

Doono if this "problem" is already solved, here is my conclusion:
I tested it - at least in V 1.09 the Staff recharge Skill of the sorc doesn't have any effect. Charges didn't changed at all. (Still 0/12 after "recharged")[right][snapback]102782[/snapback][/right]

Strange. In our ironman games the sorceress can recharge staves as advertised. Also 1.09 since it's on Battle.net.