$315 USD... for a broken sword.

[Guest]

If i was to get one of the accurrately copied and more finely crafted swords I would be most excited about the craftsmanship. In Europe the composition of the blade was never really a matter of art/craftsmanship. probably the best steel around before the renisiance was from Toledo but even its qualities were more an accident of production methods rathers than clever design.

So to me it seems you really arent losing anything just because our modern steel is better proccessed.

On the other hand if for I was looking at reproductions of Japanese swords, most of what I would care about would be in the blade - how many folds, what 2 metals were used, was the edge really tempered etc.
Thats because the art of the Japanese sword maker started there.


Im not saying your view is unreasonable(there is probably no reason behind any of this sword collecting/making). It just seems to focused on a sticking point that is rather particular.

[Rhydderch Hael]

All in all, that's the correct perspective on the matter. Swords are essentially either toys or historical artifacts nowadays. But I would say that there's a tiny bit o' relevant profit in the whole venture. People do have this nagging tendency to become curious about "lost arts" or anything they have simply not paid much heed to prior. They seek out some sort of repository or a pundit who supplies some of the answers. Not just the general public— one obvious venue is the entertainment industry.

But like I said: tiny bit of profit to be had. Historical arms re-enactment and demonstration is not exactly a boom industry. You'd have to "make" your own work. Most would falter, only a few would be consulted. Not quite a day-job, I'll admit.

[--Pete]

Hi,

In Europe the composition of the blade was never really a matter of art/craftsmanship.

I think that this might very well be the reason you don't see my point. I'm afraid you are wrong and that the making of blades in the West was every bit as much of an art as it was in the Orient. The West just didn't make as big a deal of it.

Ultimately, the blade *was* the sword. Usually the blade was made by a swordsmith using complex methods to get the best blade possible. It was then often transported and traded until someone bought it and who took it to an artisan (often a jeweler) who would fit the blade with the necessary hilt, quillions, pommel, scabbard, etc. at the blade owner's desire and specifications. Often blades survived generations and the fittings (hilt. etc.) were replaced as they wore out or as better ideas came along. That is how many of the transition weapons came about -- new guard of some type re-mounted (or perhaps first mounted) on an older blade.

For a long time, European sword blades were often made of several pieces of material, chosen for their individual properties and hammer welded together. Milder metals were used for the body of the blade, harder materials for the edge. As time went on, better techniques and better metallurgy made the process more complex, not less. A Renaissance blade was worked in such a fashion that the grain structure was mostly along the blade. The edges and tip were worked more than the center, work hardening them so that they would hold a better edge. The heat treatment was differential, again making the edge very hard, the body of the blade somewhat milder and the tang soft enough to peen. The whole process was quite complex and required both talent and experience to make the sword right.

Even good modern fencing blades are made by similar techniques and not cut from a blank of rolled steel. Prieur http://www.prieur-sports.com/prieur_GB/index.asp makes some of the best (I think *the* best) blades for fencing, and many of the techniques and some of the equipment dates back centuries.

I have never found much authoritative information on European swords on the Internet. Most of the info is either BS made up by fantasy readers or the self serving misinformation of the modern swords makers. One decent site is http://www.vikingsword.com/index1.html beyond that, I suggest you try a good library. There are excellent books written on the evolution of the sword, but check the author's credentials. If the guy is a museum curator or an academic historian, the info tends to be good. If it is just some sword aficionado, odds are he's just relaying myths and legends. However, some aficionados have become historians in their own right and there was one guy (whose name I cannot remember) who traveled around Europe, going to museums and getting permission to photograph, weight, and measure their collections. His book, which I saw about thirty years ago, is one of the best there is on European weapons.

I fear that you've been taken in by the mystique of the Japanese sword (which, BTW, is pretty much a lie -- all but a small number of the Japanese swords presently in existence were poorly made and mass produced for the officer corps of WW II) and have been misinformed as to the history and craftsmanship of the European sword. If, indeed, the blade of the European sword were made like a horseshoe or a nail by any village blacksmith, I might agree with you. But, indeed, much more knowledge, technology, talent and effort went into the blade than into all the other fittings combined. The blade was the state of the art, high tech part of the sword. I'd infinitely sooner have an original blade with replica fittings (after all, blades were often refitted) rather than original fittings on a replica blade.

--Pete

[Guest]

Im not sure what you based any of your inferences about me on. I know that most "real samurai" swords ones sees now were actually mass produced for WW2 soldiers.

But if you look at much older blades and methods some of them are facinating. The Metropotian Museum of Art has a nice accessable collection to look at.

As for the European blades, I personally dont think welding harder and softer steel together at the forge is an especially complex or clever idea. But yes the techniques did become rather advanced in the Renaissance. Also sometimes I think people over hype differential heat treatment. It is important but a rather simple concept, perhaps not for a guy making horseshoes, but pretty basic to any sword maker.

[Rhydderch Hael]

I think that this might very well be the reason you don't see my point. I'm afraid you are wrong and that the making of blades in the West was every bit as much of an art as it was in the Orient. The West just didn't make as big a deal of it.

Aye. The Japanese had to make a big deal out of the swordmaking process due to the inferior material they had to start out with. Japan, as you may no doubt know, isn't known for her abundant high-quality mineral resources. They do make fine swords, but back in the day, the swordsmith had to make them out of some pretty craptacular iron ore. The process of refining and smithing a blade from this steel drew more attention and 'traditions', because they needed that much more exacting effort to attain any decent results.

Another thing about it may have to do with the cultural perception of their elite warrior class, in comparison to the Europeans. The Japanese sword was incorporated into the Shinto faith to a much more seated degree than a sword of European ownership would be observed by its warriors. The European sword was seen most often as an item, an implement of battle that is just the extension of the warrior's own vital will. An antique Japanese sword is often an altar piece, thought to possess a soul and essence beyond that of the men who wield it. It is a fusion of earth, air, fire and water. A European sword is a tool by which faith is carried out. A Japanese sword more often has a faith described to the weapon itself.

This tends to ramp up the PR hype on the katana a bit... ;)

...Often blades survived generations and the fittings (hilt. etc.) were replaced as they wore out or as better ideas came along. That is how many of the transition weapons came about -- new guard of some type re-mounted (or perhaps first mounted) on an older blade.

My reproduction reitschwert (in theme, of course) fits this example. A cut-and-thrust war sword fitted into what was then one of those new-fangled rapier hilts.

...However, some aficionados have become historians in their own right and there was one guy (whose name I cannot remember) who traveled around Europe, going to museums and getting permission to photograph, weight, and measure their collections. His book, which I saw about thirty years ago, is one of the best there is on European weapons.

Something keeps whispering to me the name "Ewart Oakeshott". Bah. Must just be the wind. ;)
I find it amusing that the name escapes you. Oakeshott is very well known, if only his fame is rather esoteric. Let us just say that if medieval and gothic European swords were common household items today, Ewart Oakeshott would then be a household name.

When perusing such swords in a catalog, online, or in modern documentation, you'll chance upon terms like "...a Type X blade..." or "Type XIIIa sword" and "XVIIIb". If you ever come to wonder just how these blade-and-hilt types are determined, and whomever did the cataloging in the first place, well— you already now know the name of the man who did it. The late Ewart Oakeshott himself would be the first to admit that his typology of European blades (ranging from medieval times to the Renaissance) is not a perfect system, but it has enough lights for us to use as a good guide.

...I fear that you've been taken in by the mystique of the Japanese sword (which, BTW, is pretty much a lie -- all but a small number of the Japanese swords presently in existence were poorly made and mass produced for the officer corps of WW II)

It would all depend if all parties concerned knew the difference between gunto and nihonto. I sure hope I spelled those puppies correctly.

[Rhydderch Hael]

...As for the European blades, I personally dont think welding harder and softer steel together at the forge is an especially complex or clever idea. But yes the techniques did become rather advanced in the Renaissance. Also sometimes I think people over hype differential heat treatment. It is important but a rather simple concept, perhaps not for a guy making horseshoes, but pretty basic to any sword maker.

It sure as shucks is if you want to keep the sword from peeling apart at the laminates or the welds (which will happen if you forge out of proper temperatures or allow too much oxidation to take set between forgings).

And "welding harder steel over softer steel" should be of interest to anyone studying either Viking/Migration Era or Japanese swordscraft— considering that is how swords of either genre were traditionally constructed.

It's not an answer-all, but it does help open eyes. I just hope everyone here has pretty good bandwith— this is a long post and has lots of pictures:
Secrets of Swordmaking Revealed!
Sure, it's modern reproduction. But it does illustrate that swordsmithing, even (especially!) if you're going to make a Viking/Migration Era style pattern-welded blade, is a bit more than "...pound heated metal until flat. When look like sword, stop pounding..."

[Haider]

I have never found much authoritative information on European swords on the Internet.

Two sites, which have quite good informations:
http://bjorn.foxtail.nu/swords.htm
http://www.myarmoury.com/features.html

1075 steel is the nearest steel you can come to the historical steels used without having your own mining company/steel mill and while still making swords in larger quantities.
I wouldn't compare it with a viking ship made of fibreglass, rather with a viking ship made out of Canadian fir instead of Norvegan fir.
If you prefer the "real thing" Patrick Bartà also makes blades from selfsmelted iron: http://www.templ.net/indexe.php?id=15a
He is also one of the best smiths working today.

Of course swords are only toys for grown-up kids, an obsolete thing, without real use. But so are horses in our civilized world, except for some special uses (and one can argue that swords are still widely used in countries like Iran and Afghanistan), square-rigged sailing ships or blackpowder guns (and Diablo I ;)). But all these things still have a community and people who care about these obsolete things.

[--Pete]

Hi,

I found the first one ( http://bjorn.foxtail.nu/swords.htm ) quite interesting while the second was much more typical of what I'd seen everywhere on the net.

As to "1075 steel is the nearest steel you can come to the historical steels", it doesn't come near at all. Modern steel is *melted* in a furnace. In fluid form, the ingredients mix quite well, the resulting grain structure is very fine and the material is extremely homogeneous. Your own link ( http://www.templ.net/indexe.php?id=15a ) shows how different this material is from the historical. Note that the historical "steel" was never melted (that ability did not exist). That the grain structure is very coarse (see http://www.templ.net/pics/v_a10av.jpg ).

The fact is that most historical blades were not made from a single piece of material, because the technology to make a single material with all the desired properties did not exist. Thus, the blades were a composite work. No modern material can actually reproduce that work. Only people working in the traditional manner can reproduce the historical blades (and all their faults and failings) at all accurately.

The difference is extremely significant. It is the difference, for instance, between a woven fabric and one made from a monolayer of plastic.

--Pete

[Rhydderch Hael]

Bah. If there's one lesson to be learned here, it's that swords tend to take time.

Then again, I did tack in a order for a black leather baldric as soon as this puppy was almost done, and specified to send both sword and belt over in one haul.

The sword's done. The scabbard's done. The belt will be done. Tomorrow. Then— then The Dark Spark will start its journey into the waiting hands of its owner.

It's not the most heroic nor noblest thing my eyes perceive. In fact, it's a mite bit evil. Which is why I damn well like it. ;)

[Rhydderch Hael]

Well, despite the worst efforts of UPS in delivering said knife (let's see: it's insured for a thousand dollars, its in this big black shotgun case, and the order says "HOLD FOR PICKUP"— where does it end up? Just inside the fence of the front lawn) the sword I've been looking forwards to for almost two years now has finally come my way. If I can get Earthlink to cooperate, I'll have pictures taken in due time.

[NiteFox]

Well, despite the worst efforts of UPS in delivering said knife (let's see: it's insured for a thousand dollars, its in this big black shotgun case, and the order says "HOLD FOR PICKUP"— where does it end up? Just inside the fence of the front lawn)

Hunt 'em down and gut them like a pig. You now have the tool to do so :P

Or at least bring 'em to book for negligent practices. Only an idiot delivery boy would leave a black shotgun case with "HOLD FOR PICKUP" on the order form in plain and grabbable sight.

[Occhidiangela]

Sweet. :)

[Rhydderch Hael]

I don't spend any appreciable money on entertainment electronics. No DVD players, no game console system. My stereo was an open-box last-years' model that I got some nine years ago. My TV is older than most people's cats. I drive an Elantra.

I don't spend Christmas bonus money or tax returns on watercraft, ATC's, snowboards, or anything else "normal" in the guise of fun. All that sort of money which an ordinary man would spend on those ordinary things, I have not considered doing.

As thus, I was able to get this instead:


An Angus Trim model AT1548, made to resemble a reitschwert, a 16th Century German riding sword. A German or Swiss horseman would have such a sword as his secondary saddle weapon, and this design probably represents the very last example of a knightly sword before being supplanted by the predecessors of the cavalry saber such as the palanche or schianova.

Too bad for me, I don't have a horse...

Also unfortunately for me, I have a decided lack of available targets at the moment. I will just say that the one target I did get to slaughter, a half-gallon plastic milk jug of water, was cut away cleanly with the blade— four times over. Slice after slice after slice was chipped away, and never once did the base of the jug move upon the stand as pieces of it were cut away from above. Not altogether an impressive thing, I'll admit, until you realize that I am truly a rookie at the practical exercise of this sort of thing, yet was able to do it nonetheless.

Now, where is that troubling little blighter called Rakanishu...

[Brimstone]

:o
*makes note to self: stop blowing tax return money!*

VERY nice, Rhydd.

[Artega]

I'm not sure how useful a site it is for definitive sword information, but www.swordforum.com is (in my opinion, at any rate) a great resource for sword information. Their museum store also stocks AngusTrim swords, that, while just replicas, are of high quality. Up until recently, they also served as a way of ordering swords from ArmArt. From what I can tell, they no longer sell ArmArt swords due to lengthy waiting times (ArmArt hand-forged each sword, which resulted in waiting times in excess of two years), though they have two swords from ArmArt still for sale (a Sword of Prayer with multiple engravings, and a Chivalric Sword with engravings.)

I am considering purchasing the Swedish Bastard Sword Mark II from AngusTrim in the future, should funds allow it.

Your sword looks very nice, Rhyd.

[Rhydderch Hael]

The Swede Mk. II should handle very much like the AT1548 I have there. The main difference I see in the Swede is the profile taper as well as a wider ricasso than the 1548. This was a re-design from the Swedish Bastard Mk.I, of course, which was characterized by a ricasso that was as wide as the blade shoulder itself (there was no flare of the blade from the ricasso-- the block and the edge gave an uninterrupted line).

The ATrim blades were not made with aesthetic consideration as their first and foremost priority, of course. They're cutters made for the express purpose of being used, no matter how much you dress them up as I have. My sword has a few imperfections or marks of assymmetry that comes from being a relatively large-scale production. This is the guise of a more practical— or tactical— product than a refined work of art. The art pieces, the custom-produced swords, are going to run a price tag firmly lodged in the thousands of dollars.

ATrims, in terms of durability under use, and especially of cutting performance, are "top quality". ATrims in terms of fit and finish, and just plain-out looking good in dress or show, have something left to be desired. ATrims are high-quality munitions-grade swords, and that's the important thing to note: if you ever desired to outfit a band of fighters with formidably lethal swords on the cheap, you'll get the most bang for your buck with the ATrims (if swords ever went "bang", and you paid with bucks instead of talers).

Impressing the princess at the ball, however, would demand something more, I say. I daresay a custom smith's project, where he (or she) hems and haws over the thing for many, many months making it fit perfectly and look its shiniest best.