Games nowadays...

[Premezilla]

Word up to tha masses,

I've been reading lately in computer magazines (specifically Computer Gaming World) that computer games are on a decline and console games are on the rise. It occurs to me that the reason for this is that computer game developers just aren't coming out with anything NEW. I mean, come on, once the top-down perspective of Diablo came out, most every hack-n-slash, point-and-click action game after that used it. (Baldur's Gate, Arcanum, Dungeon Siege, etc.) Meanwhile, on the flip side, once Goldeneye for the N64 came out and revolutionized the entire first person shooter genre, every other game tried to expand on it, instead of just trying to clone it in hopes of being good.

A prime example of this would Halo for the X Box. It took everything good about Goldeneye (being able to run around and shoot things and blow up stuff) and expanded on that, thus bringing fps gaming to a whole new level. Players could actually use flashlights to see in dark areas, weapons became new and inventive, players could drive around vehicles, but most importantly, people could play cooperatively WITH EACH OTHER. Things like these could help propel the computer gaming industry back on top.
It seems to me that as every new generation of consoles come out, their games keep getting more and more advanced. However, this is not true on the pc side. Take Sid Meier's Civilization 2 for example. It offered people a chance to see what the world would be like if they had a turn at controlling a civilization. And who could forget the treasured, highly-classic Monkey Island series? Curse of Monkey Island still remains of the greatest games I've played ever, because the humor and comedy wasn't just pointless slapstick, it actually contributed to the game and made it more fun. (I mean, come on, who could forget Murray, the Evil Talking Skull?) But, sadly, computer games today just don't seem to have the same *zing* as they used too. I'll grant the occasional gem, such as The Sims, or Roller Coaster Tycoon, but certain games have pushed the limits of tolerance too far.
Take, for instance, Zoo Tycoon. Methinks that genre has been pushed a little too close to edge, and now it's teetering somewhere between "Please, make it stop" and "The horror, the horror. Also, the numerous flight-simulatiobn games seem to be more like sleep-inducing games.
But I applaud companies like Blizzard for trying to refresh and reinvent themselves. Titles like World of Warcraft and Starcraft: Ghost will (hopefully) redefine these series and re-establish them as new and original. Taking a bold step in the right direction is an okay start, but more companies need to follow Blizzard's example and create something new, or at least spice up something old.

I know people will disagree with parts of my argument, and I would love to hear from everybody. What was your favorite game? Funniest memory? Craziest Character? As for me, nothing (prolly) will beat my Civilization 2 and Curse (and Escape) from Monkey Island.

my 2 cents have been collected. Da Preme Team, over and out.

[Elric of Grans]

Hail Premezilla,

I personally think all games are on the decline recently. Funnily enough, earlier this week, one of the breakfast presenters on the radio station I listen to commented that he liked Galaga; they ribbed him about that, so asked for listeners to phone in whether the new games, or the old games, were better. I forget the exact results, but I am sure it was old games won. Sure, you couldn't use that in any respectable journal as meaning diddly squat, but since when was I respectable? ;)

Anywho, DII was the last game to excite me, and before that it was DI. Before that, the old console RPGs (I still play them now and then :D ), and before that it was the likes of Zork, and Cockroach. Today, if you look at my system, I have many of those kinds of things about: DI and DII, all the old Zorks, Adventure, NetHack, and a small collection of RPG ROMS (all abandonware, so don't start complaints!). I would like to try Final Fantasy IX and X, as I am a big fan of the series (and a fellow fan told me X is clearly the best), but I am not dishing out for a Playstation just so I can play two lousy games...well, two games I'll most likely enjoy ;) At 8 TRUE FF games played (games like Mystic Quest and FF Adventure are not true FF games), I only disliked two of them: I like those odds!

Meanwhile, looking at what has been coming out of late, they are all flashy graphics, special effects, and no bloody substance. Now, that I enjoyed the Diablo games means a solid plot is not high on my priorities - though it helps to have something. There is also too much emphasis on multiplayer: although it's good, most people online are morons: plain and simple. If I wanted someone to shout out "I 0wnz0r u", and listen to the complaints of the other fools, I would go to the local kindergarten, and give the chocolate bar to only one kid, and tell them not to share. In both cases, the signal to noise ratio is the same, though I would perhaps think the intellect of the average kindie kid is a tad higher - and that one kid would possably be mature enough to share, and make the whole group happy.

Then there's all the money involved in it: the industry is all about making money, and not about making games. Sure, that flaw is in damned near everything these days, but that does not mean I have to agree with it. The games I enjoyed were - for the most part - made to make games, not make money. When Diablo came out, did Blizzard think "Oh my God, we've created a cash cow?" Hell no! They created a game, and it turned out to be an outstanding success. DII was more about money, and suffered, but I suspect 1.10 - which is definitely NOT about money - shall do enough to correct that in my eyes. Zork? I think I payed $10 for the collection. Those old RPGs used to cost about $20 each, and I am still entertained by them - talk about value for money. Then the ones never released outside of Japan...damn they made good games!

I'll cut my rant short here, as I know I can go on for hours (and I don't have that much time), so I'll just answer your final questions.

Funniest memmory? The first time I ever played Zork: I had no idea how to play. Instructions? Oh, I read them about a year later ;) Anywho, I was trying all kinds of things, but never managed to do anything out the front of that house... I got anoyed, and typed: `bite me'. The game replied something along the lines of: `Self harm will not help you here'. The gamer was enlightened :) I quickly picked up on the verb-noun syntax, and was underground in no time whatsoever!

Craziest Character? Not sure. You mean insane? Cefca: destroying the world for no real reason is pretty crazy. Totally random, where the heck did they get that idea? Vincent (FFVII): he looks cool, acts cool, and makes absolutely no sense ;)

[aurikan]

I'm not sure I agree that PC games are on the decline because Console games are becoming superior.

There are many advantages for a computer game development shop to develop console games over PC games. For example, hardware and control consistency leads to easier programming and testing: you don't have to worry about how the program performs under 2^20 possible set-ups. Another inherent advantage is that often games have complete control over the system hardware. Thus, no consideration needs to be given towards operations such as minimizing, suspending, busy devices, other processes interfering, et cetera. Finally, piracy is not as much of a concern because the console systems have hardware and architectural controls to curb piracy. These advantages mean that game shops can cut costs and speed up the development process and their profits from game sales will not be severely impacted by inevitable copyright infringement.

I think in many ways, console games are not being innovative but rather are merely catching up to PC game standards. Goldeneye was a reinvention of Duke3D and even that was hardly revolutionary -- that honor goes to id for its masterful Doom and precursor Wolfenstein 3D. Halo isn't anything special, just a fine polish on the same old formula, as was Half-life and a hundred other Quake-clones. Even the weapon-limit has been done before, in Rise of the Triad. Doom had co-operative play, as did Duke3D. Half of the Halo weapons are the same old weapons, except for a handful that seem to come from an Unreal-style design, and the plethora of grenade types can be seen as far back as Team Fortress for Quakeworld.

I don't think the PC crowd is very innovative either, to tell you the truth. Diablo is simply an Ultima interface laid on top of nethack. Civ2 was polish on Civ1, and virtually every "nation builder" game has stolen elements from either Civ or Simcity or Populus. Adventure games like Monkey Island * are simply the combination of the ever-forward march of computer technology with the old text adventure styles of Zork et al. WoW looks to be your standard EQ/DAoC/etc, Starcraft:Ghost a blend between MGS and a first person sneaker - all tried and true paths, just not one taken by Blizzard before.

If anything, I think the industry is slowing down as it is rapidly maturing. Gone are the heady days of 1999; now, people are trying to create stable businesses developing entertainment software rather than making games out of a garage. This means inevitably less risks and more decidedly mediocre games. I think part of the "less risks" implication is a general shift to console development, but I don't expet that to be permanent; given success of console gaming, I'd bet we'll see more add-on hardware being sold for consoles and consoles themselves gravitating towards more general media-centre usage, which takes us back to the same place we were when IBM-compatible machines first started to come out and the PC industry moved from monolithic to modular.

Just for kicks, here are a few games I do think were truly landmark:
Dune 2, The Sims, Simcity, Civilization, Wolfenstein/Doom, King's Quest, Mortal Combat, Tetris, F-Zero, Super Mario Brothers/Contra/Metroid, Zelda, Final Fantasy, Thief

I'm sure if I sat here for a while I could come up with a dozen more.

[Elric of Grans]

Hail aurikan,

Actually, piracy with CD-based consoles is VERY easy. When I used to work in PC sales, we also sold Playstation games. Every time a new game would arrive, I'd see my boss take it out the back and burn it: he would then play that burnt copy. I also know many other people that do that today: they rent the game from a store, burn it, and collect the games like that. Piracy is very, very easy!

Of cause, GNU/Linux on an XBox is pure classic...though not as good as that XBox -> Micorwave conversion I heard about: THAT is pure genius :P

[Sheep]

Of cause, GNU/Linux on an XBox is pure classic...though not as good as that XBox -> Micorwave conversion I heard about: THAT is pure genius

I don't understand what you mean. How could you put Linux on an X-Box?

[WarBlade]

I doubt that the PC game market is falling to the might of consoles. More to the point, each generation of console becomes more cost effective than the last and with some of the hassles of software installion and running,. it's no surprise then that the console market is growing. I don't think PC is declining. But I do think that consoles are becoming more prevalent.

But the console market consistantly proves to be internally competitive too. I remember the days when the Sega Megadrive was 'the in thing' and then along came Sony Playstation and rolled it. The Dreamcast turned up and proved to be on the scene too late to combat Playstation's momentum and so on.

I mean, come on, once the top-down perspective of Diablo came out, most every hack-n-slash, point-and-click action game after that used it.

I take it you've never played Gauntlet. Top-down viewpoints have been around for a lot longer than Diablo. Pointing and clicking waited for mouse interface to happen and certainly Diablo did much to popularize the style, but Diablo was hardly the "Grandfather of top-down dungeon crawls". ;)

A prime example of this would Halo for the X Box.

Words like these still draw a frown on my brow. Did you know that Halo was originally under development for PC? I was tracking it's progress, even to the point of writing up an early tentative release schedule in the shop where I worked at the time. Then along came Microsoft, bought up the company doing it and it was goodbye PC title, hello XBox flagship title. <_< I was plnning to bye it at the time and to date I've only ever seen a few screenies.

They stole it from me. They stole the precious. <_<

Favourites? Old favourites?
Diablo II: Lord of Destruction competes for my time with Unreal Tournament. I have Master of Orion II (1996) and Master of Magic (1994) installed, both woken up occasionally. X-Wing Alliance is there too.

Thought derailment: I just remembered a relevant anecdote. :blink:

My first fascination with coloured lights on the screen shooting at other coloured lights on the screen came in the late seventies when my mother, her friend and both sets of kids in tow (four kids total) went to visit MOTAT (Museum of Transport and Technology). We had been upstairs in one of the buildings and I think it was on decending the stairs to the ground floor I saw a large black upright box with a group of young people crowding around. I immediately wormed my way in to watch the screen they were all intent upon and became totally engrosed in the lightshow displayed there. A small irregular box scooting back and forth along the bottom of the screen shooting little blocks of light up the screen at waves of other irregular boxes moving down. On some levels the little 'tank' would have large chunks of something to hide behind for when the enemy shot back. On all level it was fighting against the clock to stop those ships from tounching the bottom. You know the one. ;) BTW, I was probably standing on tippy toes with my head tilted a little back and fingertips hooked over the edge to peer at all of this. :D

From that day forward I was hooked. I turned around for for the obligatory, "Look Mum! Look at this!" kind of exclamation.

To find the silly cow, the friend and the other three kids had long gone! :( Can you imagine it? Going into a public place like that and expecting a six year old to be anywhere other than the one screen with coloured blobs in the place, which I might add, was brand spanking new technology at the time. <_< Sheesh! Unbelievable! So there I am, frantically looking around, bawling my eyes out, finally discovered by a couple of museum employees and by this stage absolutely distraught at the fact my own mother hadn't even had the decency to come back looking for me. One of the employees tried to calm me down by having me look at cars wizzing around a small section of speedway track visible in the distance, while the other ran off to the head office or wherever it is they stash the intercom mic.

Um. Yeah whatever mate. Got any more of those big black boxes with the Star Wars stuff on it? <_<

It gets worse though. The intercom message goes out and a short time later who should come running? Nooooooooo. Not Mum. Her friend FFS! :angry: Unbelievable!. <_<

Well anyway after I got reunited with Mrs. Forgetsherownson you'll be happy to know that I told her off appropriately. From a six year year old this entails a good deal of foot stomping and finger pointing making just enough noise so that all nearby bystanders are quite clear on the nature of the crime committed. B)

I loved that game though. B)

Where was I? Oh yeah, old favourites.

My first foray into PC games was actually WarCraft 2. (I had a Vic 20 many years earlier, but I'll skip that part). After WarCraft 2 came the various MechWarrior titles and a number of strategy games aaaah buggerit I'll leave this post at the anecdote - I can't seem to get this paragraph happening right. :lol:

[Roland]

Dreamcast comes out, being the first CD-based 64 bit system. Before long, people were running Linux and Windows on their Dreamcasts. Why? "Just because we can." It was good enough reason for them, and good enough reason for me.

X-Box comes out, and things are a little different this time around (from what I hear). In order to put Linux, et al on an X-Box, you have to have a mod chip of some sort. Before, it was a simple boot loader. Not quite with an X-Box, though. Some minor hardware modifications (which, in effect, kill any chance for you to play on Live!, as modded X-Boxes aren't allowed on Live!), and you can run Linux on an X-Box. Why? Again, "just cause we can". And, "just to prove it can be done." Same reasons why consoles eventually got ported (emulated) to computers, so too will computers get ported (emulated) to consoles. It's the great cycle of computer hardware being. ;)

[BlackLightning]

Hmmm....

This definitely gives you something to think about. Frankly, many great game designers have dropped out on the PC market, one of them being Westwood. Blizzard has still got its unbeatable charm, but who knows how long they can keep going at it.....

Console games have definitely taken a turn for the better, with new online gaming, cooperative options and all the other gadgets and toys. Many of these new console games are really overshadowing the PC. Examples- SOCOM, FF10, Splinter Cell, Metroid Prime, etc. Here is a theory- "Due to the fact that the console gaming industry has so much competition, each game designer is forced to create the very best to outsell the competition."

On the other hand, Blizzard, Westwood and a few other large scale companies have dominated the computer game market for so long, that many other computer game designers don't have the will or the funds to continue making games.

This could be one reason, who knows....? :ph34r:

[Kharohz]

From my watch over gaming world over these years. It is almost obvious, that gameplay declined as graphics got better.

It is one of the reasons why I still use a p2 266.

:(

[Elric of Grans]

Hail Roland,

There's a bug with the 007 game on the XBox (apparently) which allows you to switch to your GNU/Linux CD and run it without a mod chip ;)

As for putting it on a system, it's a popular game amongst people. I've known people to run the OS on DECs, Cash Registers, and I've heard of a PDP-10 too - I'd love to see that one :D

Why? Because that's what hackers do for fun :) I'm going to do it, when I get the hardware: I want to find the oldest laptop I can get my hands on (a relative of mine got an old Commodore one a couple of years ago, so there are still oldies out there), and hack it for months until I get a scaled-down version of GNU/Linux running. I'll not use X at all on it - of cause - but shall make good use of Emacs, I'll tell you what ;) I just need to get my hands on the hardware, and it'll be my pet project for however long it takes me. Why? Well, I guess you may be right: mostly because I can, it'll be fun, and because it's a challenge.

[TaMeOlta]

Herzog Zwei on the Sega Genesis was the first RTS game ,( before Dune , Total Annihilation , Dark Reign , Command And Conquer - whichever people thinks came first :P ) that seems to show the beginnings of mass combat that eventually became the RTS's we love(d) ..... this was one of my all time addictive favorites .... sorry , had a nostalgic moment there ..... carry on ! ;)

[Ice]

Had two favourites: Pools of Darkness and Civilization II.

I had been a fan of the pen-n-paper version of D&D (1st/2nd) edition and found the Pools of Darkness goldbox series much more fun to play with than its modern counterparts despite its obviously poorer graphics. None of the newer AD&D games produced in recent years could keep my attention for more than a few days before I discarded them in favour of other games.

Other than that, I think D1 and Hellfire was great... it's what brought me to LL in the first place. Variants and mods galore in the world of Diablo kept interest afloat for so long. Similarly, it's also variants and mods that has been keeping me at D2 and LoD for so long.

[Ace 777]

My first exposure to PC Games were Sierra's "Quest" series (Police Quest, Space Quest, King's Quest, Etc.) played on my Tandy 486 DX2-66 with 16 MB of Ram! To me, those games had something that my Atari, NES and Super Nintendo lacked. I stayed up way past my bedtime and would even cut school just so I could make it to the next phase, location or level in the game. At the time I didn't realize it, but know I know it was the immersion and interaction with the environment coupled with the quest-type puzzles is what drew me away from console gaming to PC Gaming. The only thing remotely close on a console was the Old-School Legend of Zelda for the NES, of which I stayed up equally late and cut school just as often for.

I think that the decline (or perceived decline) of the PC Game has more to do with the PC itself rather that it's competition with the console. PC Games are finicky. You have to meet certain specs and requirements just to play a game on your PC. There is constant performance and stability concerns, even on high end systems. Console games only require that you own the specific console and a TV. PC processor speed increases every few weeks. Consoles update every few years. Some games work on multiple versions of a console (PS1/PS2 , GB/GBA). Marketing is also a factor. When was the last time you saw a commercial for a PC Game? Most game or gaming commercials are for games that are PC and Console Games, with strong emphasis placed on the console version.

When Diablo 1 came out, that was a big deal for me. In the arcade, I was a HUGE Gauntlet fan, plunking down $20 every weekend and begging my Dad for a ride to the mall to play it. Diablo was all that Gauntlet was for me and much much more! There they were...the Warrior, Sorcerer and Elf (Rogue), just like Gauntlet (minus the Valkarie). There it was, pure unadulterated Dungeon Hacking, just like Gauntlet. Then there were the quests....maybe not as elaborate as the Sierra gaming quests I was used to, but it was an added bonus for me. In the Diablo 1 days, I was purely singleplayer. I think I played once via modem to modem on my 14.4 baud USR. Diablo 2 Changed everything for me. Improved on what was offered in D1 and truely made me give up console gaming (at least for now since my daughter is begging me for a Game Boy and an XBox).

It upsets me to see what the Gauntlet licence has become, as Atari could have really had a hit on their hands today (at least in my eyes) if they had an ounce of forsight and creativity that Blizzard has today.

My 2 Pennies...

[--Pete]

Hi,

Perhaps it is we, the gamers, that have become more jaded. We remember the old games as better because *we* expected less back then and our expectations were more easily met. However, I find that I still crank up some old games while the new ones often stay unused. Even in the fairly "modern" period, I still crank up D1 quite often while newer games (including D2, at least till 1.10) gather magnetic dust on my hard drive :)

However, I'm not too sure about "the industry is all about making money, and not about making games." For one thing, although a few games make it big, most make it small or not at all. So, that makes me wonder what the ROI is for the game industry as a whole. Would the companies funding the games not make a better return in some other field? And the individuals actually working on the games are often doing it for love. Those that do the art and music may have a hard time finding a replacement job. But for the programmers, the pay rate in game production is lower and the schedule in game development is more demanding than almost any other part of the software industry. However, as I know too well, the people making the decisions in most companies care more about money than about product. So, at that level, you are right. And, perhaps that is the only level that eventually matters to the consumer.

--Pete

[Albion Child]

Well I have My unused Atari, Dusty NES, Boxed up Segurna Genesis, and barely touched PS1.

I also have my new PC, which plays all my cool old games as well as my brand new stuff.....see my point?


BTW, has anyone else played Rainbow 6: Raven Sheild IT ROCKS!!! :D

[Wapptor]

I do agree games are changing, but something that shouldnt' have been missed, has been. FPS were indeed created by ID and thier masterful DOOM and Wolfenstein games, however it was not quake or any of its sequels, and especially not goldeneye which revolutionized the genre. It was a small budget, game, pulled from the files of a new gaming company, a project started and dropped and then restarted again. But for all its humble beginnings, it revolutionized the FPS genre, in my opinion, there will never be a better FPS.

Enter Halflife! :D

If anyone has played the single player experience, I'm sure you know what I mean. Add to this the sequels (Opposing force and Blueshift) and the mods (DoD and Counter Strike) and you have a truly endless game, as well made as any game has ever been. I agree that games are on a decline, many are clones and most use cliche stories, twisted slightly over and over again. Until I see a game that exceeds the greatness of halflife, my faith in the gaming industry will continue on its present course.

-Wapptor

[Walkiry]

You know, I've been hearing the same stuff since the first console landed in Spain in the 80s, "home computer gaming is dead! Long live consoles!". And I hear at least once a month "PC gaming is going downhill".

Yet here we are, 2003, and PCs are alive and kicking.

Same goes for the arcades. "Arcades are closing! Woe, woe, the end of the world!". I still see plenty.

Things change, companies no longer release a game every few months to make a buck and move to the next project. Sometimes you release a game in 1997, and in 2003 people are still playing it.

PC, consoles, arcades. They all look healthy. They are changing, they have changed over time, and they will keep changing for the years to come. Some will adapt to the changes and survive, others will not and die, and new people will jump in the newly-shaped wagon.

[Kevin]

I know a few programmers who went the game route, and the money is far less. Some of their profs were rather disappointed that they "threw away their talent" as well. So I agree with that point. Though I do think the "business" factor is creeping in more and more.

I also agree with the jaded gamer. Gamer likes and preferences need to come into play as well. If you have been playing electronic games since the mid 70's or even early 80's then pretty much everything will have to start to feel like a rehash. To me pretty much every FPS feels the same. Of course I don't really like FPS games all that much, and I played some wireframe type ones on a C64 and the new ones still feel the same to me. I like RPG style games so the minor differences in the many that are out there are enough to make me feel that the game is fresh, when really it is the same old thing. You can only have the "discovery" element (WarBlade talked about this) a few times with anything.

But the industry and the gamer are both changing. The newer technology isn't as revolutionary as it was way way back either so while Moore's law still holds, the last real major change for game players was the 3D graphics sweep that was enough of an upgrade in the eye candy realm to get close to a wow factor all by itself.

As for old games that I still play. Well, I still fire up the C64 emulator (and sometimes drag out the old C128) and play M.U.L.E. still one of the most innovative games around, and the multiplayer is still a blast. I still play D1, MOO II, NFS III (Hot Pursuit), FreeSpace (though that one isn't so old anymore) and Re-Volt (again not that old).

I still find a lot more games on the PC to be a lot more fun than what I find on the consoles as well. But consoles and PC's do still cater to some different game genres, though that is getting less and less distinct now. But fighting and sports games still feel more right on a console and FPS, RTS, and Flight sims still feel more right on a PC. I like PC RPGs, since the console ones still feel more like interactive movies (and Diablo is not an RPG it is a dungeon crawl or hack 'n slash) than games (that doesn't mean I don't enjoy them, but when you have pretty much no choice in what you do, and the cutscenes are longer than the gameplay (FF VII) that's an interactive movie, it entertains me, but it isn't a game. :) )

Ah well, just some agreement and some more thoughts on the issue.

[--Pete]

Hi,

Impressed by flash and fx, not really interested in gameplay. You'd probably find chess too boring to play, except maybe in a lightning tournament. And even then you'd complain about the lack of levels and the crappy graphics. And the fact that it isn't "real time" (i.e., twitch).

--Pete

[aurikan]

Yes, I agree - piracy on Consoles is still rampant ... but not AS rampant as piracy on PCs I'd argue. Consoles have the freedom of using non-standard media at a small production cost hit -- for example, the cart systems for N64, SNES, NES. While it was not impossible to defeat the security-through-nonstandard-components system, it certainly raised a fairly large barrier to would-be users and would-be suppliers, a move that my Economics 101 prof would applaud as sound. Sure, back in the PSX days you could chip your console, but early on that required access to a cd-burner (which were expensive and rare back in '96ish) and the ability and sophistication to solder stuff to your PSX mainboard. Compare that with sucking down an ISO of the latest and greatest game off the net (stripped of video and sound for size)...

However, it still stands to reason that the security measures on consoles (rarity/cost of components, hardware boot protections, signed code enforcement) pose a more effective barrier than SecuROM and other PC-based copy-protection mechanisms. The further evolution of these mechanisms - for example by online enforcement through Live! - is just following PC solutions like the online CD-key verification - seen in games such as Q3, Counter-strike, and Diablo 2 - catching up to the latest PC anti-piracy measures while keeping its own.

Anyway, I think it's classic that 007:AUF allows unsigned code to run. I knew it was just a matter of time before someone found a buffer overrun to exploit...after all, we're still getting these types of errors in SSH, Sendmail, etc, which have been open for everyones perusal for many years. There's no special reason why consoles should be immune!