Frozen Orb Damage.....specifics needed

[Albion Child]

Cold mastery "pierces" enemies resistance, or, in other words, negates the displayed resistance to cold. Also, it does not, to the best of my nowledge, reduce a percentage of enemies resistances, for example:

CM gives 75% piercing
Enemy has 75% cold resist
In effect, the enemy has zero cold resistance against your attacks.

It can also (and I've tested this) reduce enemies resistances to negative, effectively increasing the damage done to them.

[WarBlade]

Cold mastery "pierces" enemies resistance, or, in other words, negates the displayed resistance to cold.  Also, it does not, to the best of my nowledge, reduce a percentage of enemies resistances, for example:

We've already established what it does. <_<

CM gives 75% piercing
Enemy has 75% cold resist
In effect, the enemy has zero cold resistance against your attacks.

And that is most definitely not what it does.

In your example the enemy would have 18.75% Cold Resistance to your Cold Attack (if my calculation is correct).

It can also (and I've tested this) reduce enemies resistances to negative, effectively increasing the damage done to them.

You can't have tested very well methinks. <_< Cold Mastery will not push enemy Resistances into negative values.

[-Tempus-]

"If a target has 75% Cold Resistance and you use Skill Level 1 Cold Mastery, the target's resistance will be 75 - 75% * 0.23 = 57.75. "

thats from the AS ( blizzards site :huh: ) and thats how they show cold mastery works. cold mastery is unlike fire or lightning. and unlike lower resist and conviction (that just lower your resist to elements) cold mastery pierces ( i like the word bybass since thats whats its doing) the resistances to cold.

Albion Child: if it worked like you say all you would have to do is have 290% to cold in hell. if a sorc had 95% pierce you would still have 95% to cold in a hell game + absorb items.

but like i said before with all the absorb items for cold 95% to cold (listed) and about 3-400% total to cold i still take dmg to sorcs with high lev pierce ( in hell games) i dont recall if i take any in nm or not.

[Tharn]

Ill have the 81% cold absorb @ 95% cold resist with one raven on...is this enough to gain health from FO?

Read again, and very carefuly the link Tommi posted. With legitimate gear, you cannot achieve more than 40% cold absorb, but you can achieve some +8x absorb (with 1.08 Blackoak Luna).

On of the most thorough researches of cold absorb was made by Zharous and posted on dii.net sorc forum:
http://forums.rpgforums.net/showthread.php...threadid=123355
You can also use his PvP sorc calculator on his site.

As a practical result:
- In Hell difficulty, no amount of legit absorb will make you immune to Frozen Orb with high CM. With 2 Ravens, you'll still take considerable damage and with 2 Ravens+Blackoak, you'll still take some.
- In lower difficulties, it will heal you (esp. on Normal) - this is why PvP communities typicaly restrict absorb (because there's no point of dueling if sorc can't damage you, but they also restrict sorc defensive options)
- Cold resistance is useless (read below). Use your equipment slots for something else

Why is CR useless? Let's say you're dueling in Hell and you have 90% cold resistance there. That's 190% minus 100% difficulty penalty. However, CM (say 90% - pretty modest for PvP) does this:
1. Lower your 190% resistance by 90% to 19%
2. Apply difficulty penalty -100%
=> Your final cold resistance is -81%

[Obi2Kenobi]

I have a question. If this has already been answered, forgive me, but...

If you were to have, say, 200% cold resist (but hit your cap of 95%) and they had high cold mastery, would the extra amount help? If not, then what you are saying is... "Resistance is futile." :)

Nevermind this... I just read the last part of the above post. :blink:

[Tharn]

It will help, but not much.

Let's say you have 400% cold resistance (on Normal difficulty), capped at 75% (so char screen shows 75%).

90% cold mastery would reduce this to 40%. If you were in Hell, voila, -60% resistance, in NM you're at zero. Unless you can reach more than 750% cold resistance on Normal (or 1750% in Hell :o ), using +max cold resist gear is waste of equipment slots (against this sorc).

Now consider most well-built PvP sorcs have CM between 93 and 95%.

[the Langolier]

From what I understand, piercing with Cold Mastery will bring your resistances down based on your *total* resistances, not the capped value (75-95% possible range). By "total" I mean the sum of all resistances given by items/quests/skills. This is really stupid. Essentially, the thinking behind the max resists is saying "no matter what, you can never resist elemental damage more than a certain percantage." So why would it pierce the phantom value of resistances before you cap it? If you get +150% all resistances, it is capped at 75% (assuming no mods to max resistance values). In damage calculations without pierce, the game will use 75% for resists. So:

Why then does a piercing skill base itself off of your total resistances ignoring this cap? It doesn't make any sense - in fact, it negates the whole idea of a cap in the first place*. What would happen if it were based on the cap? For instance, say we have 150% resistances (75% max) and 50% pierce. With how it is currently handled, the pierced resistance will be 75%. There was no effect! Basing it off of the cap however, would calculate to be 75% - (75% * 50%) = 37.5%. The effect is not large, but it exists. Granted, this is a special case, but let us continue.

*note: Look at this example to see how the piercing effect ignores the cap in many cases:

150% resistance - (150% * 90% piercing) = 15% resistances, which is the final resistance.

No where here does the cap of 75% appear. If instead you choose 75% as the amount to pierce:

75% resistance - (75% * 90%) = 7.5% final resistance.


Piercing should be based on the final resistances of a character, which is displayed in the character screen, defined by total resistances - penalty. If the final resistance is 0 or negative, there is no effect of piercing, otherwise the piercing is based off the net positive value. Let's look at an example with a character with resist all 200% and 90% piercing effect:

How it is now:
200% - (200% * 90%) - 100% = -80% final resistances

How I propose:
(190%-100%) - ((190%-100%) * 90%) = 9% final resistances

Although the differences between the two are large, I feel 9% is much less extreme than -80%. 190% resist all with 90% max is not a very easy thing to acquire to begin with. With how it works now, the piercing effect is too overpowered in that it decreases the actual value of resistance by -170% resist all. In contrast, lowering the resistance by -81% to 9% is much more balanced.

Take a look at the following graphs. Total resistance (x-axis) is the resistance displayed in the character screen, and Pierced resistance (y-axis) is the effective resistance when accounting for the piercing effect (also, please excuse picture size, I wanted them to be clear). The graphs are for 85% piercing and 95% max resistance.

Normal Mode:
Current way: -edit- click

Proposed Way: -edit- click

In normal difficulty, the two methods give you the same pierced resistance. The only difference is that my proposed method will level off at 14.25% resistance, whereas it will currently reach up to 60% pierced at 400% total resistances.

Nightmare Mode:
Current way: -edit- click

Proposed Way: -edit- click

The difference is becoming much more clear. Currently, it takes a whoping 265% resistance just to have an effective pierced resistance of zero. Note the second graph your resistance will equal to zero with 40% resistance. This means that piercing has no effect with negative final resistance. After that, the pierced resistance will slowly rise until it reaches a maximum of at a total resistance of 140%.

Hell Mode:
Current way:


Proposed Way:


What a difference. With the current way, it is impossible to even get a pierced resistance equal to zero. Even 400% resistance only yeilds an effective resistace of -40%. Ouch.

As you can see, the piercing is highly dependant upon difficulty level. The effect is not so pronounced in normal mode, but in hell mode it is drastically cut. The other way of piercing is much more balanced over difficulty levels. Positive pierced resistances can be reached even in hell, but it still takes a good effort. The max resistance would only be 14.25%, plus it would take a total of 195% to get there

Conclusion:

Pros:

• Makes more sense
  <>
  
• More balanced between difficulties
  <>
  
• More balanced with respect to total resistances
  <>
  
• No effect on PvM<>
  [st]
  Cons:
  • Piercing has no effect for negative resistances<>
    [st]
    Of course, it makes sense that it has no effect for negative resistances. The character would have no final resistance to pierce, and the negative value just amplifies the damage.
    
    Piercing should be based on the final resistances of the character (taking into account difficulty penalties), and not the total resistances from items/quests/skills. It is given by the formula, where final resistances = total resistances - penalty:
    
    If <final resistance> <= 0; then <pierce resistance> = <final resistance> (no effect)
    
    If <final resistance> > 0; then <pierce resistance> = <final resistance> * (1-<pierce>), which is equal to <total resistance - penalty> * (1-<pierce>).
    
    P.S. Mods: would it be possible to post all the images, they are only about 9 Kb each.

[Tharn]

Well yes, CM does work a bit weird. However there's the exactly same issue with Conviction and Lower Resist. I don't see many people complaining about being able to overresist Conviction MSLEB (aka one of the cheesiest one-hit-killers in game). In this game, you can see many weird things, which often work as a fix for some bug/unbalance/other weird thing.

Also, it seems currently available absorb (2 Ravens + Blackoak) is balanced for Hell difficulty with current scheme. If your proposed scheme was used, sorc won't be able to damage such opponent anywhere, unless there was some hard absorb cap (i.e. max 25% absorbed, incl. +absorb).

[the Langolier]

>Well yes, CM does work a bit weird. However there's the exactly same issue with Conviction and Lower Resist.

Actually, because these two skills work to reduce the resistance by a given percentage, they are very different from pierce. Essentially, from what I wrote above, they would act the same as difficulty penalties, i.e. a -70% resist all from either is like a -70% penalty. In hell mode, the total penalty would be -170%. Using <final resistance> = <total resistance> - <penalty>, it is expected that one could still have maximum resistances even with the curse/aura.

>Also, it seems currently available absorb (2 Ravens + Blackoak) is balanced for Hell difficulty with current scheme. If your proposed scheme was used, sorc won't be able to damage such opponent anywhere, unless there was some hard absorb cap (i.e. max 25% absorbed, incl. +absorb).

First of all, good like finding that equipment. Also, this build has to do with absorb, not resistances. Although they are related, that is not the point. The point is that I think resists alone could be much more balanced. In order for that build to be "balanced", you need a godly amount of cold absorb, which is a very special effect. Anyways, a character using this is focusing quite a bit on one element. After all, there is a reason the sorceress has three skill trees...

Addendum: I noticed you mentioned Hell difficulty. Let's look at a duel in normal mode with what you suggest (personally I would only duel in normal to avoide exp loss). As you can see from the graph, the pierced resistance can easily increase to levels of 30-40% resistance with resist all around 200%. If you factor in the absorb from that setup, then the sorceress couldn't damage the target either. The way I suggest it be done could potentially lower a character's resistance to 14% max, in any difficulty. Of course, cold absorb is another effect entirely, and a character with cold absorb that high will be very effective against cold no matter what their resistances.

[Tharn]

First, this is strictly PvP issue. It does not apply to monsters.

You don't loose experience if you die by hand of another player in NM and Hell. It's this way since 1.07 (Classic). Besides, true PvP chars don't bother with exp loss, because you usualy level to some level and then duel, so exp loss is non-issue.

Well, you can't separate resist and absorb. 2 Ravens + Blackoak is relatively easy to get for anyone, who did some MFing. I personaly have about 7 Ravenfrosts and 1 Blackoak. So anyone really interested in lowering cold damage will use both resistances and absorb.

If you duel on Normal difficulty, then with any cold resistance, wearing 2 ravens+blackoak will make you healed by any legitimately achievable level of Frozen Orb (only PvP viable skill, if you think about Hydra and TS, they can be easily negated too), because 2 Ravens will lower damage so much, that Blackoak will heal you. In this case, there's absolutely no point of dueling.

I think same is for NM, or damage is still very very low.

Only when you duel in Hell, the very low resistance (below -70%) will increase cold damage so much, that there's enough damage left after Ravens to overcome Blackoak. Even then, it still does pretty low damage (so if you're wearing 2 Ravens+Blackoak, you're pretty much immune to PK attempt with Orb (but for general PvM purposes this kind of cold damage protection is useless).

This is why all private PvP communites (which usualy duel in NM or Normal) restrict absorb (usualy 1 per element for most chars, except for necros (and sometimes paladins) who can use 2 Ravens, but no Blackoak).

[the Langolier]

Other than the fact that you don't lose experience in PvP (I haven't dueled since 1.05), what exactly did you reply to?


>Well, you can't separate resist and absorb

Um...sure you can. Step 1. Equip items giving cold resistance. Step 2. Take off any items that add cold absorb. It's not like +50% cold resist inheriently gives +5% cold absorb too. I am not talking about the best items to equip for dueling a sorceress. I am simply talking about making pierced resistances more balanced by itself between difficulties.

>...then with any cold resistance, wearing 2 ravens+blackoak will make you healed by any legitimately achievable level of Frozen Orb...the very low resistance (below -70%) will increase cold damage so much, that there's enough damage left after Ravens to overcome Blackoak. Even then, it still does pretty low damage.

Did you even READ my reply? I already said that with that setup, resistances don't matter because of the amount of absorb. I would agree: the best setup to duel a sorc would be what you describe. But that has got nothing to do with it.

>This is why all private PvP communites (which usualy duel in NM or Normal) restrict absorb (usualy 1 per element for most chars, except for necros (and sometimes paladins) who can use 2 Ravens, but no Blackoak).

Then resistances would play a bigger part, but currently that is highly dependant upon difficulty level.

Basically, here is a summary:
A character with 400% resist cold will have a pierced (85%) resist of: 60% in normal mode, 20% in nightmare, and -40% in hell. The way I propose would pierce it to this: 14% in normal, 14% in nightmare, and 14% in hell.

I am sipmly talking about balancing a skill. Not only between difficulties, but also with regards to total resistances. A character equiping 400% resist to cold and having that pierced to -40% in hell mode is too much. Plus, my original point is that it doesn't even make sense to pierce the value of 400% when base max resistances is only 75%

[Tharn]

:wacko:

You can't do any changes to CM formula, unless you change absorb. These two are NOT two separate issues (2 Ravens + Blackoak are VERY easy to get, compared to rest of PvP gear).

So yes, your formula is:
a) logical
b ) nice and dandy

but:
c) unless you change absorb limits (incl. old version items) useless and imbalanced

That's it. You have to solve both parts of the problem.

[the Langolier]

c) unless you change absorb limits (incl. old version items) [it's] useless and imbalanced

I noticed you have never actually demonstrated how.

[Tharn]

Let's look at damage with 2 Ravens+Blackoak (1.09 at level 99) with your scheme.

Case 1: Level 40 Orb 544.5 avg damage (highest practicaly possible for PvP purposes), CM is 95%
Case 2: Level 48 Orb 656.5 avg damage (highest possible setup in game, which is useless for PvP - read any PvP sorc guide to find out why), CM is 97%

Target has 90% cold resistance and we're using your scheme. For simplicity sake, consider no -MDR.

How much damage will target take? (Case 1/Case 2)

Resistance goes down to 4.5% / 2.7%
So damage after resistances is 520 / 639

Now comes absorb.

First percentage: 40% is absorbed, so 208 / 255.6 and heals you
and damage is lowered to 312 / 383.4
so net damage after 2 Ravens is 104 / 127.8

Second absolute absorb from Blackoak +61.875 is absorbed and heals you
and damage is lowered to 42.125 / 65.925
so net damage after 2 Ravens is -19.75 / +4.05

Of course, 1/4 PvP penalty is applied on everything, so final damage is -4.9 (=target is healed) / +1.01 (=target is little damaged)
I could have made little mistake here and there, but the final result will be about this.

I should of course note, that you can negate fire damage even easier (Rising Sun + 95% fire resist) and almost negate lightning damage as well (Lightsabre + 95% lightning resist + +40 absorb). Currently, cold damage is the only one, which cannot be fully absorbed (at least in Hell difficulty). As for gear, getting level 40 Orb is much more difficult, than absorbing all three elements at once.

It is imbalanced, because you don't allow sorc to damage her opponent in any way. The 1 damage per Orb shard is laughable, when you consider all PvP chars come with 1K+ life and also little replenish life would be faster than sorc could damage. Physical damage reduction is capped at 75% - you can't completely negate or even be healed by physical damage (don't mention -DR items - they are for laugh in PvP).

Look at Zharous' PvP sorc stats calculator for more info about this and you'll find out, that with current absorb scheme, Cold Mastery is pretty fine in Hell.

I would agree that your CM scheme is probably better than current, but you can't solve only half of problem.