Legal Virals

[Nicodemus Phaulkon]

Your posts might make more of an impact (doubtful, but one can hope) if you replied to the actual post you're trying to reply to.

"Threaded View" is there for a reason. If it makes your eyes hurt, every post in "Linear View" still has a "Reply" button attached to itself to ensure a decent flow of conversation.

[Guest]

Im not taking a stand on either side here Pete(not today at least).

But I would argue that its a legitmate position to to include even plays and recordings in that which are not be owned.

This perspective is that nothing physical is actually lost.


Im not saying its right or wrong - but it is a valid, logical stance.

[--Pete]

Hi,

As for the artists: I think if the RIAA goes down (i.e., enough people boycott, which will never happen), they'll have a more powerful and personal way to contact fans and get their music to the people who are actually interested: the internet and mp3's. The "evil" technology of today will become the business model of the future. It will mean an artist's pay will depend on his productivity and creativity, not his hype, and it will cause some real motivation to produce valuable music - they'll actually WORRY about whether anyone will like their product, whereas today their contracts assure them some profit even if they suck.

OK, first, I am not a music industry guru. I know just about as much as the average informed person. However, your assumptions seem very simplistic.

There are a few people out there who write a song, score the music, pick up a guitar and sing into their tape recorder. Your model would maybe work in their case. But, the more common case is that one person writes the song (or perhaps just the words and another the music), a second sings it. Probably with a few people for accompaniment, both instrumental and vocal. And almost each piece of that is recorded to a separate track. Then a sound engineer "mixes" all that together and makes something better out of it. But that means a studio and all that entails. Which means costs. Which someone has to front. So, the music industry is dead, long live the music industry.

But even so, where the hell are you coming up with: "an artist's pay will depend on his productivity and creativity"? In your model, the artist gets paid exactly nothing. Oh, sure, one person will pay a buck to download one song from the artist's site. And then all the kiddies will pass that song around. Net gain to the artist -- not even the worth of a fart.

So, if you and your like minded friends do indeed pull down RIAA, then either something just like it will crop up, or the only music you'll ever hear again is live music, performed where there aren't any recoding devices. And the prices will be high. For that is the only way a musician can make a living if he can't sell recordings.

No, there are many things wrong with the music industry, just like there are in the game industry. And the solution to each is the same, don't buy. But that does not give anyone the right to steal.

--Pete

[Guest]

Ah sorry about that. I had been using linear forums where you just address by names lately. I forgot how its done here.

I miss the old old old LL. I loved it when all the threads loaded at once.

[Nystul]

The fair point was that it alllows musicians to dedicate themselve to to music rather than do it as a hobby. Thats a reasonable position although I would argue that the majority of good music is from proffesionals who have realativly low paying contracts.

Good music is entirely subjective. But any of the professionals you are talking about who wish to distribute their music without help from the industry having nothing stopping them from doing so right now. So I'm not at all clear on what you're saying would be better without the industry and copyright protection.

Your absurd arguement was that the industry itself is a useful and needed means of distrobution. I think the whole issue here is that there IS another method of distribution - file swapping. If file swapping becomes more prolific - then all the industry is is an advertisement mechanism. An advertisment mechinism DOES descrease diversity.

Filesharing doesn't make recordings. It doesn't book concert dates. It doesn't own studios. It doesn't give young artists the opportunity to work with people who actually know what they are doing. And of course, it doesn't give the artist financial incentive to record. If what you want to do is to sift through thousands of freely distributed amateur recordings by hobby musicians hoping to find the one song that is truly inspiring, what exactly is the recording industry doing to prevent you from doing that? But believe it or not, some people appreciate listening to polished recordings, and some musicians appreciate having their music sound halfway decent when it is distributed around the world.

BTW when I said "music industry" i was refering to the "recording industry". Radio could easily survive without the record companies. It would change, but it would not go away.

I thought the current connection between radio and the recording industry was obvious enough that it didn't need to be spelled out. I have no doubt that radio would change, but what I can't see is how it would change for the better.

Again, what the world would need would be some mechanism for the good musicians to meet with creative writers, be able to spend months in the studios, to have professional-grade equipment to work with and technicians with some experience in recording, to be able to distribute that music across the world, and to be able to fund all of the steps just mentioned. If we had such a mechanism, we would call it the recording industry. Now maybe there are good artists who aren't getting their break in the industry because they don't have the right style or something. If that's the case, you are more than welcome to start up your own record label to help these people. But how would getting rid of the labels that already exist do anything to help them?

[--Pete]

Hi,

I miss the old old old LL. I loved it when all the threads loaded at once.

Well, yeah. I miss that part, too. But I don't miss interesting discussions disappearing into the void of corrupted threads. Overall, I think the new is an improvement, even if we did give up a few things for it. Personally, I liked the threaded view all, a nice fast way to catch up on a topic.

Edit: Or were you talking about the 54 fora? Lots of problems there, too. Not the least being pop ups (for some people).

--Pete

[Roland]

...sums up my entire argument.

One point of note:
If I like ONE song on the album, I buy the whole thing. Chances are, I'll find at least one other song I enjoy. And, if not, I still got my money's worth from the one song. Anything more is just icing on the cake.

[Roland]

And the right to duplicate that medium is something that the purchaser gives up when he buys that medium.

Your argument (and mine as well) is that they never had that "right" in the first place. And it's not a right. Nor, for that matter, is it even a privelege unless so given by the original author.

Never does anyone have a right to "duplicate" another's work, before, during, or after purchase. But, you already knew this. Just pointing out a little word error. :)

[Doc]

I buy more music now because of file sharing. I can sample an album and check for crap content allowing me to make better choices. Yes, I download music. And when I find what I like, I buy music. With the rates charged today for a CD, I will be damned if I only get one good song on the whole album.

As for the whole sabotoge issue, who cares. I own a Macintosh. I am probably 100% immune to their mass market Windows security issues. Some times it's good to be part of a 5% market share. So let it come... Aint no big deal to me. Besides, Apple's new music service looks right up my ally.

[Guest]

Why on earth would I want to start a record lable to help artists?

I know plenty of people with the ability to record reasonable high quality music without a proffessional lvl studio. I dont think for a minute that the quality matches a real studio but I bet its about over 95%.

Also even if the current recording industry was destroyed that wouldnt mean musicians coul no longer make any money, but they would make much less than they do now in genneral.


If you look at the history of all art its pretty clear that when art becomes driven by profit - it does not increase in quality.

While it is true that money allows artists to focus on their craft - it sadly distorts the art it self. While is the natural to a degree, and in some case has caused geniouses to be rather prolithic, our current music "system' has taken this to never before seen lvls. Look at the 10 or 15 most profitable "artists" last year, most of the have music that is wriiten to fit and traget demographic.

[Nicodemus Phaulkon]

As for the whole sabotoge issue, who cares. I own a Macintosh. I am probably 100% immune to their mass market Windows security issues. Some times it's good to be part of a 5% market share. So let it come... Aint no big deal to me. Besides, Apple's new music service looks right up my ally.

Itunes charges .99 USD a song, so this is NOT the equivalent of KaZaA or Morpheus or any other file-sharing client that we're discussing. Your bravado is redundant. Itunes is releasing a Windows version for their service in about a month's time. Who'll be supporting them then, flyboy?

Further, I find your naivite about your digital safety behind the Macintosh amusing. If you believe you're not at risk for virals or trojans, especially from corporate sponsored efforts... I reserve a ringside seat at your comeuppance. Tell me, have you checked your precious Mac for spyware lately? If you have a filesharing application on your machine, you have spyware. Guess what, bucko... you're not immune.

What color is the sky in YOUR world? :lol:

[--Pete]

Hi,

I misspoke indeed. One cannot give up what one never had in the first place. Thanks for keeping me honest ;)

--Pete

[Elric of Grans]

Hail Nico,

Comparatively. Compared to a Windows machine, MacOS is more secure than a bank. Viri are less common; as are trojans and other goodies. Most people use Windows-based machines, so these are the machines people target. I tend to have the same attitude to my machine: I'm sitting here thinking whatever they throw out, it'll not touch my GNU/Linux machine. They *could* target them, but would they? I have serious doubts. The only person immune to anything is the guy with a PC that does not have any outside connections - ANY! Well, even then you could technically screw it by directly accessing the hardware, but you have to get into his house, and that's illegal - of cause, viri are apparently quite legal to release ;) Nay, not immune, but secure? Aye, I would say my system is darn secure: the sys admin cannot even detect my presence on the network, let alone anyone access this system :P

Nah, I'm more interested to see the retaliation should they actually do this. Would some POed Crackers access their machines and release their own viri on them? Or perhaps go the whole hog and just melt the machines ;)

Oh, and the sky is a bluey grey in Melbourne at the moment. In my world though, it all depends really: sometimes I write is as a pinkey red, others an orange, sometimes blue, grey is good for setting a mood... oh, you didn't mean Temmarendil? Woops!

Want music? Get free music that the artists release for free themselves. People often complain about them because they are not `real musicians' - which is quite a stupid comment, but ignoring that - but they are actually quite good. I have a nice little mp3 collection of such music, and it's rather a rather entertaining compliment to the radio (where I get the bigger names).

[Doc]

Just did a system check...

Spyware? Not found.

Viri? None found.

Harmful stuff? One item found. An MP3 of Rosanne Barr singing that I use to make my kitty cat howl.

I LOVE a good virus scare because they NEVER effect me. In the past 10 years, I can count the number of Macintosh virus scares on one hand and have MANY fingers left over.

As for the iTunes service, I think it's perfect. You get charged for the music you want, not the music you don't want, and, it keeps everybody happy. It's the perfect middle ground. No silly subscription fees that you are forced to pay even if you are not downloading. It was a brilliant move on Apple's part to create such a service. And yes, it is coming to Windows, within the next year to a year and a half.

Elric, I echo your sentiment. My Mac also boots Yellow Dog Linux, and if you thought nix type OSes were secure, try one on an optimized RiSC CPU. Faster, safer, and pretty much uncrashable.

[Elric of Grans]

Hail Doc,

I don't mind the old risc chips actually: I learned their assembly years ago. Good fun :D I'll stick with my PC though: price is my primary concern here. On the other hand, I am looking to invest in an old (and I mean OLD) laptop: if I were to find a Mac before a compatable, I'd not hessitate. They are nice systems: I've just not used one in a decade. Well, not entirely true: I've sort of looked around on one recently...they have colour displays these days! Of cause, the trouble there is I'm so out of it as far as Mac technology, I'd not know what to look for anymore. However, I guess that *is* part of the fun of doing up a bad old system - the rest of the fun is taunting people who have expensive new systems that don't do anything more than yours does (not including aesthetics) :P

Oh, and by the way: you may want to keep a close eye on that mp3. I hear those things can get progressively worse over time...and if you are responsible for all the children in your state attenting black masses, it would be your own fault when you find yourself on their altar! Dangerous on my PC? I think I have Netscape installed :blink:

Virus scares? Has anyone else got the Irish Virus recently? Nasty stuff!

[Doc]

Well Elric, if building your own is your thing, or, just getting a cheap start, here is a wonnerful site where I do most of my own shopping for Mac based parts.

http://www.baucomcomputers.com/

I doubt you will find anything much cheaper. He also sells scrapped desktops and laptops, so, it is possible to build a decent system from scratch. Cheap too.

[Nicodemus Phaulkon]

Just did a system check...

Spyware? Not found.

Viri? None found.

Harmful stuff? One item found. An MP3 of Rosanne Barr singing that I use to make my kitty cat howl.

I LOVE a good virus scare because they NEVER effect me. In the past 10 years, I can count the number of Macintosh virus scares on one hand and have MANY fingers left over.

I find that statement amusing, considering you just admitted you have an Antivirus application on your Mac. Or at least, I'm HOPING that's what you meant.

Antivirus applications are made for all computers, including Macintosh, for a bloody reason. They are maintained and updated and ENCOURAGED for a reason. Most Virals are spread with Email and their associated attachments... but Messengers are used as well, not to mention website uploads. Vaunted immunity may indeed save your own ass from symptoms, but you're also equally able to spread the virus to those that can indeed burn from the infection.

It's the equivalent of walking into a movie theatre with the knowledge you're carrying the SARS virus: Unrepentant and, far worse, contemptuous for the safety of others. It's the equivalent of knowing you're positive for HIV... and insisting on unprotected sex. "I'm immune! Haha!". What a bloody callous thing to say.

I find that attitude to be abhorrent.

Perhaps we should inact a similar legislation to the SARS epidemic then, affecting those "Responsible Citizens" that feel that they're above such situations to be responsible for their actions. In effect, we'd quarantine them off the 'net.

I'm a former Mac-user. I used to think along the same lines as you when it came to OS safety and Virals... when I was FOURTEEN. I've since developed a lasting responsibility towards my "community", be it online or offline, and realize that my actions and inactions do indeed affect others. Someone once labelled that realization to be "maturity".

Enjoy your immunity, Doc... but be responsible with your ability to spread. Steve Jobs can't save you. Grape computers can't save you. IPod and Itunes and lack of industrial support can't save you. 5% of the market share is dwindling fast and even Apple's stronghold of Public Education had its walls breached years ago. I joined the Dark side three years ago after realizing I was on the losing end of the stick, and paying twice the price to be there.

Paperweights and Doorstops are immune to virals as well, don'tchaknow.

*tips helm*

[Doc]

Oh I assure you, no need to worry Nico. Been computing since the 70s, no need to hold my hand.

I am quite aware of my immunity, I am even more aware of my ability to spread still on certain rare occasions. That scares the crap out of me, something using my personal Fort Knox for less then kosher purposes. I don't like that at all, not one bit. I have virus checkers, a BEEFY firewall, and EVERYTHING coming in or out gets scanned. My system is tighter then a frogs, well, erm, you most likely know the expression. I am down right paranoid when it comes to personal computer safety. I have the virtual equivilent of wearing a dozen rubbers. All of my email is not downloaded to my hard drive and opened, it downloads to a Zip Disk. First sign of trouble, the Zip is contained, then scuttled. When that nasty Mellisa virus was going around I had a few sent in my direction, all of which were promptly killed.

I am smug for a damn good reason. I work very hard not only to keep my immunity, but, to be a dead end for anything remotely dangerous sent in my direction. I am the atomic dustbin, the cyber black hole. Besides, every paranoid anal retentive hermit who lives way out in the boonies probably knows more about security then you will ever dream of Nico... :D :lol:

Now if only I could perfect my tinfoil beanie cap to keep government mind control rays out of my skull. :P

[Elric of Grans]

Hail Nico,

It's worms that you are speaking of: not viri. However, I must admit, one of them (Bugbear, I think) also carried the Chernobyl virus, as well as a Trojan Horse and keylogger, but the Bugbear itself was a worm. Oh, and I don't have any virus scan software, but I know I don't need one. I refuse to use floppies, and am rather careful about downloading anything. I've got my own anti-worm system set up, can pick a Trojan from a mile off, and never accept a download if there's any chance there could be a virus on it. Not been using PCs as long as Doc and yourself - only started in the mid-80s - but in that time I've never had anyone breach my security in any way, shape or form; there's popular holiday resorts that do not have such a long record without a disaster ;)

PS Doc, sounds like your system is set up something like mine. Oh, and that looks like a great link you posted above, however I don't like buying online, and I'm looking for systems in my own country ;)

[goldfish]

If you look at the  history of all art its pretty clear that when art becomes driven by profit - it does not increase in quality.

Kind of like the sistine chapel -- oh wait, that was paid for by rich italians.

Kinda like the Concert in Central Park -- oh wait, that was paid for by prior sales of Simon & Garfunkel.\

etc

etc