The Matrix

[ithil]

I grant that 22nd century tech isn't as cool as the stuff they use on Trantor. :->

[Nyves]

For hydroponics to work, you need soil. 

The entire point of hydroponics is that the plants are grown only with water. You do not use soil in any form, usually rocks are suffiencient for root growth. (Small rocks of course). All the nutrients are contained in the water and are periodically added to the mixture. The only problem with hydroponics is that the plants lack support that they would normally have from the soils. Having seen plants grown from seed with nothing but water, it is entirely possible that they were all grown using hydroponics.

My latest theory about the movie is that neo himself is a part of the matrix and not human. This is supported by the fact that the architect tells Neo he is an anomaly of the code. So Neo would be much like the oracle and agent smith. Agent smith himself also tells Neo that they are alike in more ways than Neo knows. Also, Neo would be returning to the source if he was to obey the normal cycle. So yet again we have another program not wanting to return to the source.

All of this of course assumes that Zion-level is just another level of the matrix.

Just my 2 cents worth.

[Drasca]

Hydroponics still requires the important elements of soil.

Of course, the point of Hydroponics is to do without soil, but Occhi's point still begs the question: Where do you get the basic materials and nutrients in the first place?. Being an unknown distance below ground and presumably below the crust means it isn't natural. So:

It had to either been brought with them
--which means there's a limited dwindling amount that leads to eventual food shortage and negative growth

-or

Manufactured by some unknown, almost "magical" process. I'm not familiar with the geology, but I hardly think there's a lot of organic compounds so far down. Lichen, Fungus and certain deep ocean bacteria are the only life-forms I recall that exist off of minerals alone. Most of the staple "super-foods" (corn, soybean, wheat, maybe rice, etc) that fulfilled early civilization's total nutritionary diet required soil of some form.

Now that I think about it, has anyone thought of the potential air pressure differences would be far below the earth's crust? Unless it was all a closed system, but I didn't really see evidence of that.

The more I think about it and have to explain for the writers. the less I give credit to the writers and more to the people here and elsewhere who are simply better at quality science fiction (emphasizing the science...not necessarily a blockbuster movie script grabbing for ratings...)

[LiquidDamage]

My latest theory about the movie is that neo himself is a part of the matrix and not human. This is supported by the fact that the architect tells Neo he is an anomaly of the code. So Neo would be much like the oracle and agent smith.

I thought that was obvious, but now that you mention it, I guess most viewers probably didn't catch that.

Neo's physical form is human, but after seeing Agent Smith take over Cain's body, that doesn't really mean much, does it? It is the mind that is always the important thing in this series, the human body is nothing more than an organic machine.

In the mythology of The Matrix, I see no reason to believe that the human brain is anything more than a combination CPU/RAM/hard drive, and personalities are nothing more than a form of human software. Some or all of Neo's brain was overwritten with the code for The One, similar to how the Agents overwrite people's brains:

They can move in and out of any software still hardwired to their system.

Agent Smith has simply figured out how to break the rule about them having to be hardwired, and Neo was likely modified/overwritten when he was first connected to the Matrix.

All of this of course assumes that Zion-level is just another level of the matrix.

I don't see why that is necessary to assume the ideas you put forth.

[LiquidDamage]

It had to either been brought with them
--which means there's a limited dwindling amount that leads to eventual food shortage and negative growth

-or

Manufactured by some unknown, almost "magical" process.

or

The necessary means are provided to the first 23 people freed from the Matrix. Since Zion is a form of control that the machines need, they must ensure that it continues to be rebuilt in full form for this whole process to continue.

Perhaps they are provided with some sort of enclosed ecosystem deep beneath the Earth-- with various elements scattered enough for them to believe that it was not design that everything they needed was there.

The machines MUST be supporting Zion each time it is rebuilt. They must build new hovercraft for them to find, or at least repair those destroyed in the final raid on Zion before setting the next 23 free. They must provide the same amount of raw material needed to rebuild Zion with the same functionality each time. If they didn't, the system would eventually break down.

[Occhidiangela]

Your comment strikes me as self contradictory, however, that may expose my own gaps in knowledge regarding hydroponic horticulture and agriculture. However, my little nit about the food supply regards that normal physical fact that there is no free lunch, even in agriculture. If Zion is part of the Matrix, of course, the point is moot.

All the nutrients are contained in the water and are periodically added to the mixture. The only problem with hydroponics is that the plants lack support that they would normally have from the soils. Having seen plants grown from seed with nothing but water, it is entirely possible that they were all grown using hydroponics.

OK, "grows in 'just water' " and "nutrients periodically added to the mixture" are where the problem lies that I identified. Water is just one element in the food chain that creates a plant. Energy, which the sun or light provides, and then nutrients: solids. While that typically means soil, your own observation points out that you have to synthesize the nutrients to add to the water . . . and you are right back to the problem with the science breaking down. Where is the sustainable 'nutrient base' for crops in the kind of mass needed to feed a population in the hundreds of thousands?

I will accept that it need not be magic, and that it could indeed be explained by a series of machines that mine and separate particular minerals to inject into the 'water' in order for the plants to grow. But sun and water do not alone make a plant grow: you must have the solids containing the nutrients that provide the minerals and the various carbon chains that make the plant what it is.

For a crop such as wheat of corn, that yields a certain kilocalorie per pound edible product, if you put 'nothing' in, you get no food value out. Water has zero calories per pound.

I'd also like to ask if hydroponics has yet been used to put acreage under cultivation. I'd be interested in further reading on the subject.

Greenhouses for cardboard tomatoes use soil.

[--Pete]

Hi,

The thing is, plants don't need organic "food". They just need carbon (mostly from CO2), nitrogen (from the atmosphere, but needs to be "fixed" by lightning or bacteria), trace minerals from the soil. And, of course, photons -- lots of photons.

I do remember reading about one hydroponics "farm" somewhere (location escapes me, might have been Chicago). IIRC, the only organic thing that came in was seeds. The rest was supplied by an aqueous solution they mixed with their chemistry sets. They were bragging about yield, freedom of sprays, lack of insects, etc. etc. Unfortunately, I can't give you a reference. It was some time ago and probably in some doctor's waiting room :)

I Googled hydroponics and got a bazillion hits. Just grabbed one off the top of the list http://www.hydroponics.com/index.html and found out some interesting things. Looks like if you have seeds, a rock crusher, some chemical ability and a lot of energy to convert to light you don't need much else.

Which, of course, brings up the question of why they were eating slime in the first movie.

--Pete

[Occhidiangela]

It is a couple of years old, but I used to have a page on that biosphere, self contained community experiment some years back that some rich guy set up in either New Mexico or Arizona. It got a lot of press, but apprently it did not last the two years that it was originally scheduled to.

[Striker]

Alternately, Persiphone's kiss might be something . . . There are plenty of guesses that spring to mind.

Finally got a chance to see it for a second time this weekend (as the first time was interrupted frequently by cell phones <_<), and I did notice that after the kiss, the Matrix sound (the one you hear from the tumbling numbers in the beginning credits) went off, so who knows. It could be some sort of upgrade passed on covertly from the Oracle. We could speculate till the cows come home. All part of the fun!

[smegged]

Which, of course, brings up the question of why they were eating slime in the first movie.

Space is at a premium on the hovercrafts, and so to stay out on operations for a long time they need food that both keeps well and doesn't take up too much space. Their slime could be that food :).

[--Pete]

Hi,

If you live near a coast and get a chance to tour a sub, do it. You'll get a good idea what space at a premium really is. There's room and to spare on those hovercraft (which, BTW, they aren't hovercraft). I suspect it's just a screw up. They wanted to make a point so they used an effect. Later they wanted to make another point and used a contradictory effect. A small degree of sloppiness that nobody caught, nothing more. Reminds me of the old space operas where a space ship navigator used a slide rule to calculate his course :)

--Pete

[Occhidiangela]

I guess this is limited to nuclear subs, but the air processing equipment just wow's me. The fact that they can reprocess and make their own air, I know it is science, just seems magical to me.

Places to visit subs:

In Pearl Harbor

In Baltimor Inner Harbor (Sub that sank the last Japanese ship before VJ Day.)

In San Diego California, but you have to check the web site for the Point Loma sub base to see if a ship visit is available.

Kings Bay Georgia

Norfolk, Va

Seattle, Washington

Groton CT. That is where USS Nautilis is still tied to a peer for public viewing as a museum. I took my kids, my dad, lots of friends. Worth the day trip if you live in the Tri State area, Mass, New York, etc.

New York City, near the Carrier that has the SR-71 on it, I forget the name of the site. I used to fly over that now and again. (Used to fly past the World Trade Center also, about half way up. I always wondered if folks there ever looked out the window to look at the helicopters that flew by, though I suppose that now such things are commonplace enough not to attract attention.)

It would take a Google search to sort this out, but I think that a WW II German sub is in Chicago somewhere.

[smegged]

Places to visit subs:

In Pearl Harbor

In Baltimor Inner Harbor&nbsp; (Sub that sank the last Japanese ship before VJ Day.)

In San Diego California, but you have to check the web site for the Point Loma sub base to see if a ship visit is available.

Kings Bay Georgia

Norfolk, Va

Seattle, Washington

Well all those places would be nice, but all reside in the US :). I have seen one of our Australian subs though (only from the shore, and not inside). Considering that when I saw it our country had a grand total of 4 subs in our navy it was pretty special :).

[kandrathe]

I think you are on the right track. I was wondering about if they were somehow able to tap into humans limited psychic abilities, and perhaps they needed to encode Neo as an anomoly with some human powers beyond normal. I will be disappointed if it is the matrix in a matrix, or the reality is still in the matrix. Almost as bad as the, "Then I woke up..." cheap plot.

[WarBlade]

I will be disappointed if it is the matrix in a matrix, or the reality is still in the matrix.&nbsp; Almost as bad as the, "Then I woke up..." cheap plot.

I had considered that possibility.

The worst case senario I imagined was:
Thomas Anderson wakes up in a perfect match of his awakening scene in the Matrix right before he is urged to "follow the white rabbit". He goes to his computer and sees that his sixth attempt at creating perfect AI is reaching the end of its simulation . . .

:lol:

[Taem]

Phew, I had to dig past a lot of old posts to find this, but my diligance paid off :D .

Anyways, I was sitting in the comfort of my living room watching Matrix Reloaded on DVD in this scene where Neo is talking to the Architect when the thought suddenly came to mind: Why the these "intelligent" machines use humans for energy in the first place when they could of just used animals and not had any problems with a revolt or having to re-make a new matrix every couple hundred years, or any of that junk? Why not animals? The only reason I could imagine is because they were all extinct at the time, but other than that, I can't imagine a single excuse the machines might of had to use humans over animals for energy.

[Doc]

I have not seen the second film. I have read a good bit though.

I am something of a philosophy phreak. Just a little.

John Paul Sartre said "Hell is other people."

The Matrix is just that. The Machines keep us around for what ever reason, simply because they CAN. Nuff said. And the Matrix is simply another version of "Hell." Humdrum living hell. Concrete, blacktop, and green sky. Filled with the things that make people like me become hermits. People. Other people. Hell. On Earth. The Matrix exists simply as revenge, to show us humans just how miserable and pathetic our lives really are, and why our individual lives mean so little in the end.

Neo is the personification of Sartre's Salvation Within Self concept. Existentialism taken to it's logical conclusion. We are a lone force existing within a hostile universe bent against us. Neo is not alone. Trinity is merely a poorly covered version of the Three Concepts of Existentialism. Her name is a dead give away. Her bringing Neo, The One, The Seeker, He Who Has Salvation From Within, back to life, was as obvious as a punch in the face. By embracing the Existential Trinity, we gain new life and understanding. People like Morpheus and others who punch through the Matrix are the enlightened intellectuals. People who embrace existentialism and learn to see the truth for themselves, allowing them to step in and out of society as a whole as they see fit. To gain some measure of wisdom, one must first live within, and then apart, from what ever it might be that one views and hopes to understand. However, Morpheus and the others will not see the "whole truth" because they don't want to. They are content to leave others to make choices for them, and shrug responsibility on to others.

It's a good story, but it's been told before. Now, it has shiny special effects. Go read some of John Paul Sartre's works, and, with a little effort, you too will know the ending to the Matrix Trilogy. Or, at least the basic plot line. Going to actually have to see the movies and dive into the little plot twists. It's interesting. Screw physics and bullet time this and explanations for how it works. The Matrix is about philosophy plain pure and simple. Thought. Leave the other stuff out and you will get a lot more out of it.

And, as a slightly off topic bit of conversation, there are gun fighting styles. And yes, in some sense, they do make a difference. Enough to make Gun Fu? I dunno. But there is a hell of a lot more to just pointing and shooting. I am getting a little older, and don't see so well any more, but, I can still blow the heads off of matches with a pistol at 100 paces. There is a certain Zen in shooting, shutting the universe out and becoming one with your target. Some of the West's best shootists were near sighted. They had very poor vision. They filed the sights off of the gun cause they were not needed, and, allowed it to be drawn faster. These folks shot from the hip, and most of the time, never needed to visually line up their targets. You can still find folks like this today (I am one of them) trick shots who some times take up with circuses or carnivals. (Something I never did) Strange folk like Frank Zapate who was born blind, and yet can hear a dinging bell, shoot it, and never miss. Rumor has it that Frank once shot a mouse running acrossed the sand. Gun Kata or Firearm Fu? Who knows... I'll leave it to wiser heads then mine, but don't be so hasty to judgement.

[NiteFox]

Why the these "intelligent" machines use humans for energy in the first place when they could of just used animals and not had any problems with a revolt or having to re-make a new matrix every couple hundred years, or any of that junk?&nbsp; Why not animals?&nbsp; The only reason I could imagine is because they were all extinct at the time, but other than that, I can't imagine a single excuse the machines might of had to use humans over animals for energy.

Simply put... :)

[Swarmalicious]

Thank you. Enjoyed your post.