The Matrix

[Guest]

When Neo and pals are ejected from the Matrix - they dont die.

Yet if Neo doesnt go to the core everyone dies?


Also he did choose the core right? When he saved Trinity he made the choice that "should" destroy Zion right?

So that coulld mean, once he chose the core - everything is Matrix. Remember the achetict said she was dead. By choosing the core perhaps it only seems she is revived because its all Matrix from their on.

Just my random idea - Im still thinking about it.

[WarBlade]

These are some points of interest that have been buzzing around my head... let's hear the retorts:  :)

None are conclusive, by any means...


there are no accidents:

1 - If the architecht was telling the truth, the prophecy is a 'plan' by the system. Therefore, the architect knew Neo would have to make a choice between saving Trinity & returning to the source...
IF THAT WAS PLANNED, then the rusted latch (that ends up killing the other ship members, and eventually leading to Trinity having to enter the Matrix) was no accident - but how?
Interesting that Morpheus's pump up speech says 'there are no accidents' exactly when they show the rusted latch...

2 - Did Persephone infest Neo with some code when they kiss? (the sexy restaurant girl eats the cake and gets infested similiarly) Why else is she so insistent on him swapping spit with her 'the way he does with Trinity? If it was to give him a 'virus', what was its purpose?

I was wonering about about Persiphone's motives too . . . although 'something in the saliva' doesn't fit. Given the the opprtunities in the film to slip something to Neo that he might ingest, I doubt the kiss has anything do with hidden virii, but I could be wrong. More likely that part is there as a vehicle for the ideas surrounding choices and the mtives for making them as we do.

3 - Who is the mystery guy in the restaurant? (look carefully when they first enter)

. . .

Somehow this fabled mystery person slipped right by me. <_< I'm going to have to watch this part again to see what everyone's talking about.

4 - The actor who plays Boba (Jenga) Fett has a Cameo. (He's the operator who closes the gates after the Neb docks)&nbsp; :)

How dare you confuse this arrogant piece of poo with Temuera Morrison. :angry:

*Smacks Swarmalicious with a frying pan*

*Smacks Swarmalicious with the frying pan again*

5 - What is Seraph's "Thing that matters most"?&nbsp; I don't think its merely the Oracle...

6 - Even though Smith is supposedly a rogue wild card - he plays very crucial parts in the prophecy coming true, by facilitating Neo returning to the source (delays them in the doorway before the bomb can kill them, for one). Is it possible the machines planned all of this? Something else? (Smith's biggest dialogue stressess the importance of "purpose")

Hmm, some nice thoughts, but you're still only scratching the surface.

Go back to the beginning, to the unanswered question of the first film: Why does the system need an artificial construct for the the human minds to exist in. To the machine, the people are supposedly just batteries and yet the machine wants people to think and learn and make decisions.

According to the Oracle everything has a purpose . . . :D

[LiquidDamage]

there are no accidents:

1 - If the architecht was telling the truth, the prophecy is a 'plan' by the system. Therefore, the architect knew Neo would have to make a choice between saving Trinity & returning to the source...
IF THAT WAS PLANNED, then the rusted latch (that ends up killing the other ship members, and eventually leading to Trinity having to enter the Matrix) was no accident - but how?
Interesting that Morpheus's pump up speech says 'there are no accidents' exactly when they show the rusted latch...

I have an answer to your first question: Probability.

I have been noticing people using probability a lot lately. Google, the fastest and most effective search engine, uses Baysian filtering, which is also used for some nearly flawless spam filters.

Apparently, with enough information, probability can be used to predict certain things with an extremely high level of accuracy (you should see how accurate my spam filter is, it is quite remarkable).

I seem to recall the Architect discussing probability, specifically when discussing how the One would always come about, as a statistical inevitability, as long as there was that "non-perfect" Matrix with the illusion of choice. It is entirely possible that the rusted door latch was simply predicted to an excruciatingly high level of accuracy, based upon years and years of compiled statistics on events.

Another movie I watched recently, Equilibrium, also used statistical analysis and probability as an explanation for their extremely over-the-top gunfight scenes.

*******Minor spoiler for Equilibrium*********














Basically, they claimed that someone developed a sort of martial arts style for gun users based upon statistical analysis of gunfights. The result was a set of patterns that the master of the style would go through while firing, ensuring maximum likelyhood of survival and maximum damage to his attackers, through probability. It was called Gun Kata. I was quite amused by the concept, and the fight scenes that resulted. The movie itself was entertaining, but nothing spectacular.

[Dozer]

The movie itself was entertaining, but nothing spectacular.

But it had the BEST death-of-the-seeingly-good guy ever!!! espically with what he says right before it!!!

[WarLocke]

Equilibrium / Gun Kata stuff.

This movie interests me. Where can I find/view it?

- WL

[--Pete]

Hi,

Excellent.

Yeah, there might be (probably will be) nit picking later. But that was a fine movie. Maybe twice the action and half the story of the first, but still . . . excellent!

--Pete

[LiquidDamage]

This movie interests me.&nbsp; Where can I find/view it?

- WL

I just rented it on DVD, so I'd say try Blockbuster.

[LiquidDamage]

But it had the BEST death-of-the-seeingly-good guy ever!!! espically with what he says right before it!!!

Yeah, that was pretty cool. I really liked how it was... different (you know what I mean)... from most other "boss" fight scenes. I found it refreshing in a world that seems to think that Rocky is the end-all-be-all of fight movies. I, personally, prefer Bruce Lee style.

The following fight was also quite unique.

[Guest]

It might look cool on film, but the concept of "styles" in a gun fight is kind of silly.


In melee combat the defensive aspect matches the offensive aspect, and both are closely intertwined because of the range.

What matters with a gun is what matters to soldier/swat teams/paintballers - cover and accurracy. A well trained shooter - doesnt look exciting in a gun fight(now if you add in several people flanking etc. become important).

[MonTy]

Hail all,

Has anyone tried the game that has come out on PC (or consoles)? Havn't seen any decent reviews come up yet. I'm quite hesitant to plunk down retail 50$ for this game if it's not so great. It's made by Shiny Entertainment; I don't trust em so much.


Woo! Going to see the movie in one hour (finally).

[DralaFi]

Well I just got back from seeing it again and I have some more revelations/ideas.

During the Architect scene, he says that if you fail to pick 23 people (7 women and 16 men), then everyone connected to the Matrix would die. Then he says right after, that coupled with the Destruction of Zion it would mean the annihilation of the entire human race.

Which could mean that Zion is not part of the Matrix. The Architect could have been lying, because what I think is that the architect is actually the Machine A.I. which lead the machine revolt and war on humankind. As Morpheous said in the first movie, humanity created A.I. and then it became smarter and the world was launched into a true world war with the Machines emerging victrious. Who then created the Matrix and used humans as a form of energy.

Now the architect could have lied to Neo, or told him 1/2 truths. May be the machines tried 5 times to destroy Zion as they are trying to now while digging to it. And humanity defeated them. Because many believe in the prophecy of the one, it gives them hope that something will save them and Zion from distruction. By revealing that the prophecy is false, they lose hope and moral drops. Thus they stop trying because they know the end is now enivetable.


But them the above does not really explain Neo's special powers at the end of the movie, and why there are no old men or women in Zion except for the counsel. If you look at it, the counsel is made up of old people. Who could have been the remaining ones of the 23 chosen by the One before Neo to rebuild Zion and them being the elders formed the counsel and are on it.

Also, when the Senator and Neo were talking he said that "I still feel that we are pluged into them". Which could be another hint for Zion being still part of the matrix.

[Kasreyn]

IMO, it's analogous to overanalyzing Star Wars. Sure, you can DO it, but you'll reduce your own enjoyment, because Star Wars (again, like the Matrix), is very "soft" sci-fi. (Well, Star Trek is "soft" sci fi. Star Wars is even softer - space opera). Analyzing the Matrix will point out so many logical and scientific errors that it quickly becomes quite silly.

Where it shines is as a metaphoric tale. Like Star Wars, The Matrix is modern mythology, which is why it is valuable and fun. Trying to treat it as serious science fiction is never going to work.

My main problems with the Matrix are twofold (there are many others, but these are the major ones):

1. There is no valid REASON for the Matrix's existence. Law of Conservation of Energy dictates this. You can't get more energy OUT of a human, in BTU's, than you put IN, in the cost of preparing food; in fact, you get less. Recycling the dead as food is merely a stopgap measure, it's not even close to being a solution to the loss of energy. Entropy dictates that in a closed system, the amount of energy which can be harnessed to do work will continuously grow smaller. Of course, perhaps the machines are reducing their energy requirements as fast as they can invent new engines, but there is a limit to energy technology. There is no limit to entropy. In the end, the machines would be unable to milk any energy from the humans, or in fact from the planet earth. A better idea for the machines would be to harness geothermal, wind, or hydroelectric power sources. Solar energy, of course, is unavailable. Fission and Fusion reactions are still available, as well. If I were the machines, I wouldn't bother with humanity. I'd exterminate them as soon as they were defeated (to avoid the possibility of rebellion), then concentrate on more logical energy schemes. I'd leave as many other animals alive as possible, though, because life is the universe's way of fighting entropy. I would attempt to un-scorch the sky; failing that, I would emigrate the machine nation to another planet, because without the Sun's energy, Earth is doomed to a relatively quick entropic demise.

2. The first movie has too complete an ending. I mean, come ON. At the end of the first movie, Neo can:

* Alter the flow of time in his vicinity (bullet-time)
* Destroy Agents (I assume by hacking their program or viral infection, as graphically illustrated by diving INTO the Agent)
* Disregard the law of gravity (fly)!
* Reanimate from "death" in the Matrix!

These last two are the most critical. If he can disregard gravitational attraction at will, it's hard to say what other physical laws of reality could bind him. And if "killing" his persona in the Matrix is not permanent, then he is literally unstoppable within the Matrix.

So how is there room for a sequel? Given the abilities he has at the end of the first movie, Neo is capable of winning the war all by his lonesome. If I didn't know better, and were extrapolating logically, I would assume that the first scene of the second movie would be the post-war celebration at Zion. Instead, they choose to reduce Neo's powers so there can be conflict, and thus a plot. Basically, the Wachowski Bros. painted themselves into a corner, script-wise, which left them no available plots for sequels. Thus, they had to defy what has gone before to make the sequels. Not good.

I prefer to enjoy the original SW trilogy (4 thru 6) and the original Matrix as they are, untouched by Lucas's or the Wachowski's later rationalizations and overanalyses. As modern myths, they are amazing and a joy to experience and believe in. As science fiction, they reek.

-Kasreyn

[WarBlade]

My main problems with the Matrix are twofold (there are many others, but these are the major ones):

1.&nbsp; There is no valid REASON for the Matrix's existence.&nbsp; Law of Conservation of Energy dictates this.&nbsp; You can't get more energy OUT of a human, in BTU's, than you put IN, in the cost of preparing food; in fact, you get less.

True, as an energy source, using mankind makes no sense. I stick by my earlier speculation that the Matrix wants people's collective counciousness and reasoning abilty for something, purely because there's no other explanation to maintain the arttifcial world.

2.&nbsp; The first movie has too complete an ending.&nbsp; I mean, come ON.&nbsp; At the end of the first movie, Neo can:

*&nbsp; Alter the flow of time in his vicinity (bullet-time)

That's an interesting interpretation, but doesn't match the events as well as a simpler explanation.

To quote Mouse: "His neural kinetics are way above normal!" (Neo reacts faaast)

My interpretation of the bullet time is that it was concieved as a way of speeding our view point up allowing us to percieve things like moving bullets. It's not a 'power' over time that Neo has, but a merely unique perspective for the viewing audience.

*&nbsp; Destroy Agents (I assume by hacking their program or viral infection, as graphically illustrated by diving INTO the Agent)
*&nbsp; Disregard the law of gravity (fly)!

If you take the view that "every action has an equal and opposite reaction", I wonder if "disregarding gravity" is exactly the right to put it. Every time Neo flies, the Matrix world around him gets substantially warped, from the ground bending to clouds and objects getting wrenched about in his wake.

I can speculate how he's shifting kinetic engery around concerning his body and the flying bullets, but then I start heading for the overanylization trap . . . Best to just enjoy the show methinks. :D

*&nbsp; Reanimate from "death" in the Matrix!

These last two are the most critical.&nbsp; If he can disregard gravitational attraction at will, it's hard to say what other physical laws of reality could bind him.&nbsp; And if "killing" his persona in the Matrix is not permanent, then he is literally unstoppable within the Matrix.

I always thought that brain had yet to die while the heart had reached a flatline condition. ie the heart had stopped but with the brain death iminent there was still a small window of opportunity to get the heart kick started again. Therefore Neo could be killed as long as his mind was reduced to a state where his awareness was pushed below his ability to manipualte the Matrix.

[Taem]

Instead, they choose to reduce Neo's powers so there can be conflict, and thus a plot. Basically, the Wachowski Bros. painted themselves into a corner, script-wise, which left them no available plots for sequels. Thus, they had to defy what has gone before to make the sequels. Not good.

You present some very valid points logistically, however you missed one very important thing in the area I quoted: The second and third movie scripts were already written when the first movie came out... So they already knew the limitations of Neo. Why could the bullet hurt and almost kill him in the first movie? Well there are a few posts above which ask similar questions about they physics of the matrix and I believe the general agreement is that objects that are still part of the matrix and subject to its law, such as bullets, can be dodged and special effects can be gleamed, but attacks from agents and the hackers cannot because they defy the physical laws of the construct. What does this have to do with how neo came back from the dead? Well, you point out that you feel neo is invinvible, however I'm saying he has power of "normal" objects in the matrix and is capable of changing them how he sees fit, but can still be hurt and killed from agents and rogue programs.

On a side note, why was it called Matrix Reloaded when the matrix was never reloaded in the entire movie? :lol:

[Kasreyn]

I've considered the "Neo is just that fast" argument before, but I reject it because when "bullet time" commences, it's only the bullets that slow down - other background things occur in the same rate they normally would. Only the bullets are slow. Meaning, to me, that Neo has created a pocket of slow time directly in front of him; when the bullets enter it, they slow to a crawl, and finally to a stop. Neo can reach into the pocket of slow time at normal speed because he controls it. However, other things outside the pocket of slow time continue to occur at normal speed.

At least, that's the best explanation I could come up with, because there's never any attempt to explain, within "Matrix logic", exactly how Neo accomplishes Bullet Time.

-Kasreyn

[Copadope]

You're confusing "bullet time" with Neo's ability to just plain stop bullets. Bullet time is what you see in the first movie when Neo does the funky limbo thing on top of the building and everything slows down and you see the ripples behind the bullets flying at him. This just shows that he can "see" the bullets coming and react fast enough to avoid most of them. What he does in the hallway later to stop the bullets flying at him is totally different. That's just him altering/influencing the matrix through his super leetness as The One.

Bullet time is basically just a change in point of view. You see it in Reloaded when Trinity is falling. You'll notice that everything is slower during bullet time, not just the bullets. You might also notice that Trinity isn't able to react as Neo would because of her lack of The One-ness.

[Hammerskjold]

>True, as an energy source, using mankind makes no sense. I stick by my earlier speculation that the Matrix wants people's collective counciousness and reasoning abilty for something, purely because there's no other explanation to maintain the arttifcial world.

Yeah, although Morpheus did say human pod farms "combined with a form of fusion". I have a similar leaning towards what you mentioned, though I don't think Machines want's our reasoning abilities. I like to think they're more interested in using our brains simply for the information storage capacity. Reloaded might be their equivalent of re formatting. With Zion being the few bad sectors that needs a data clean up.

>My interpretation of the bullet time is that it was concieved as a way of speeding our view point up allowing us to percieve things like moving bullets. It's not a 'power' over time that Neo has, but a merely unique perspective for the viewing audience.

Totally agree, bullet time is done for our viewing benefit. It's not any type of power imo.

>I can speculate how he's shifting kinetic engery around concerning his body and the flying bullets, but then I start heading for the overanylization trap . . .

If this was happening in the "real" matrix ;), it will be a lethal trap. I'm guessing the moment your mind does believe those are real bullets, you're dead. The defining moment for me was when Neo gains "true" sight in the matrix. He no longer sees bullets, simply lines of codes. Something that he can now manipulate.

>Therefore Neo could be killed as long as his mind was reduced to a state where his awareness was pushed below his ability to manipualte the Matrix.

Totally agree again. In Reloaded there was scenes where he was overloaded at times with information, and was shown he's NOT invincible. A couple of Smith's punches did get through during the burly brawl, and during the fight with Mero's henchmens.

[--Pete]

Hi,

Solar energy, of course, is unavailable.

Not at all. Above the atmosphere, solar energy is exactly what it was all along. The atmosphere *must* be transparent to some wavelengths of electromagnetic radiation or the surface of the Earth would be way too hot for people to live (think Venus on a warm day :) ). Solar energy could be collected in space and beamed down on one of the bands that the atmosphere does not absorb. That technology would be infinitely easier than extracting energy from humans, even if humans were, overall, exothermic.

Also, the humans are *not* being used to generate energy, but rather to generate *electrical* energy. Now all "generating" systems are really converters of energy from one type to a more easily usable type and none of them are 100% efficient. There are always loses. So the inefficiency argument does not apply. What does apply is that there are a *lot* of better sources (as you pointed out). I agree that that is one of the two major flaws in the concept.

These last two are the most critical. If he can disregard gravitational attraction at will, it's hard to say what other physical laws of reality could bind him. And if "killing" his persona in the Matrix is not permanent, then he is literally unstoppable within the Matrix.

This is totally off the mark.

First, *THERE IS NO SPOON*. The Matrix is a construct, a programmed model. There is no gravitational attraction, just a "subroutine" that tries to model gravity. And Neo's ability is to override that subroutine, to change its parameters or completely negate the "function call". Which makes any argument based on Neo's "powers" in the Matrix moot. He cannot *control* the Matrix, but neither can the Matrix control him.

That he is unstoppable within the Matrix does not matter, for the fight is not just within the Matrix. Within the Matrix, he has limitations on how much he can do at once, limitations of where he can be and how much he can influence. So, while the Matrix cannot stop him, neither can he stop the Matrix. And, if even he could stop it, then what of the humans that are suddenly "liberated"? Remember Neo's physical reaction at being dumped out of it. And he had been at least partially emotionally and mentally prepared. So, just because he can control some aspects, it doesn't make him totally in control.

But the fight is not just within the Matrix. And outside the Matrix, Neo has (until the very end of the second movie) almost no powers. Greatly outnumbered and out gunned, supported by one *small* city (I've seen bigger frat parties). In the level of reality of Zion, he is even weaker than he ever was in the level of the Matrix.

So, no. The story wasn't complete, isn't complete. Whether all the loose ends and all the inconsistencies are worked out or not will show whether this is a real piece of science fiction or just a first rate of SciFi. Either way, the effects, the cinematography and the story are still excellent.

Oh, and the second major flaw? I can understand why they would need a land line to get *into* the Matrix (think of it as a dial up connection). But I can't even imagine what a "real" land line in a construct where nothing is real even means, much less why they need it to get out.

--Pete

[WarLocke]

This is totally off the mark. First, *THERE IS NO SPOON*. The Matrix is a construct, a programmed model.

Exactly. This, IMO, is why he survived taking a clip in the chest in the Matrix. Nothing in the Matrix is real; those bullets were just code packets, and when they "hit" Neo, the Matrix sends a signal through his neural jack saying "You're dead, fool."

This is where Neo's special status as The One comes into play. Anyone else faced with this situation would die; their heart would simply stop beating (or, to be more precise, their brain would shutdown or stop sending "beat" impulses to the heart). Even Morpheus or Trinity, who know that the Matrix is only a virtual construct and can't really kill them, couldn't resist that data packet downloaded straight into their brain. They would die.

However, Neo is The One. His understanding of the Matrix goes beyond the construct, into the code itself. Thus, he can disregard or completely reroute subroutines such as the "bang, you're dead" bullets with enough concentration. IMO, his "death" and revival in the first movie is just him discovering this. This is (I think, at least) backed up by the visual of him seeing the Matrix's code itself as he stands.

- WL

[Kasreyn]

Perhaps there are only a few points in the code of the Matrix at which new "objects" can be inserted. Humans (or, rather, simulated objects of them which are used as the representations of the people in the matrix) are of course only "inserted" into the Matrix at certain points. But perhaps the renegades can only insert their simulated personas at certain points in the code, which are represented somehow, perhaps for the Machines' convenience, as telephones.

Of course, there's a problem: Agents don't use the phones, they "possess" a person (more accurately, they take over control of the simulated being, alter its appearance to suit their own, and terminate the person who the simulation belonged to).

Which brings up an even more interesting point, IMO: WHY do the Agents look like Agents? I mean, they look nice and Official for dealing with their minions (ie., cops, etc.), and that has its uses (humans are for some reasons very easily impressed by external appearances =P). But when Neo was running from the Agents, and they "possessed" people he ran past, WHY did they take an Agent form? They'd do so much better in disguise.

Or better yet, the Matrix surely has recent data available on Trinity's old "residual self-image" from her time in the tanks. Why can't they just take her image, get him to drop his guard, then kill him easily?

-Kasreyn