Mutual Hostile, or Hostile Timer?

[Occhidiangela]

1. One, the server prevents the use of a hack/script for 10 seconds. That frustrates the cheater.

2. It makes the PK wait. I like having them have to wait to find out if the char is going to fight back or not. Why? Let them have to fidgit, rather than the PvM questers who, every time they see a new player enter a game, have to guess "is this person going to hostile me?" rather than concentrate on their current task at hand.

In short, put the uncertainty on the shoulders of the jerks.

Now, for those who use PK and Hostile to scare leechers and other arseholes from their games, the 10 second timer is small price to pay: the jagoff will leave, or will die, and 10 seconds more or less hardly matters when it comes to cleaning up a game of twits.

If the mutual hostile is required, you know darned well that someone will find a way to bypass it. A timer? Less likely, IMO. And, the timer makes the WP hydra trap almost obsolete. :)

So, as a hack prevention tool, to prevent the hacks from being exploited by Hostile/PK types, timer is better.

My two cents.

[Tal]

BUT, sir, if mutual hostile button clicking is required for pvp damage to occur, you don't NEED to go back to town.  If the PK hostiles you and you don't hostile him, he can walk right up to you, cast 10 Frozen Orbs at you, and you won't feel a thing.  He can stand next to you cussing and swinging his uber rare elite greatsword at your neck, and he's harmless as a blind puppy.  Harmless!  About all he can do to you is try to steal your drops, and he can do that without PKing anyway.

So why would you "need" time to go back to town?  Under the mutual hostile setup, a person who has hostiled you, whom you have not hostiled in return, is functionally identical, in game terms, with a person who has not hostiled you at all!

This seems a clear choice between a.) needing 10 seconds to escape a PKer who will then either force a confrontation and drive you out of your own game, or b.) avoiding all the messiness by only having pvp confrontations when YOU feel like it.  When I state it like that, which option looks more attractive to YOU?

-Kasreyn

Primarily because, as Whereagles explained to me at that time and as Occhidiangela has already pointed out, sometimes there is a need to remove a jerk from a game. I personally tend to take the road less travelled and leave the game if the jerk has decided to ignore my polite request that he/she leave. This is primarily because I refuse to play the would-be PK'ers game. I tend to not stay in the field when hostiled and instead will annoy him/her from town with the above mentioned tactics. I deprive him/her of the satisfaction of hunting me down and/or killing me. I also deprive him/her of the satisfaction of seeing me angry as well. Instead they get to read about Bustopher Jones and Rum Tug Tugger. ;)

The most attractive option in my view is what Gnollguy has stated - a hostility flag on game creation. As the game creator I should be the one to decide whether or not to have to worry about hostility. If this was an option all of my games would be firmly co-op but seeing as Blizzard has stated that they view PK'ing as a integral part of Diablo 2 because "the world of Sanctuary is a dangerous place", I don't see the hostility flag ever making it into the game.

[CelticHound]

None of the above. I'd like an eject button for the game creator. That would be a more generally useful solution for all kinds of grief players. And if I got ejected by a grief player who created a game, well, that's a Good Thing. It gives me a positive indication that they weren't someone I wanted to be playing with in the first place.

Most of my realm play has been hardcore. Worst case for getting grief-ejected is that I don't get a quest or I miss out on a nifty item. But I learn that X is a grief player. That's a great trade.

-- CH
(the trouble with killing all the idiots is that everyone has been one at some point or other, so it works out to extermination of the species)

[Kasreyn]

I'll try to get to them in order, because I've got a lot of ideas:

To Grumpy: How about instead, you can create two different types of character at startup? One has no hostile button and can NEVER be damaged by spells or effects of players. The other has a hostile button and can be hostiled without warning, no 10 second limit, etc. The hostile player option should IMO be unlocked by your very first multiplayer Diablo slaying ever with that D2 game (to keep total newbies out of the PKing environment).

To Gnollguy: The PK/NoPK flag at game creation would be another wonderful solution, but as Taidashar mentions, wouldn't allow you to hostile lamers, beggars, leechers, drop thieves, etc. If I'd thought of it, I'd have added the "noPK game" option to the poll. As to the kick feature, I've mentioned in another thread that you would require the person kicking to be in town, and maybe also force a 5 second timer before they can kick anyone, to prevent drop-kicking. (kicking to steal drops) =P

Taidashar: Instead of hostiling someone to shut them up, use the Squelch feature, which already exists. It has the added advantage of not requiring any further attention to be paid to the moron in question. Ignore such people long enough and they go away.

LOL @ Tameolta! Funny idea, but an interesting one. Another silly suggestion: As long as you are hostile, you cannot interact with townies at all. Click them and nothing happens.

Ghostiger: Problem with what you say is, in D2 at the moment, there are pretty much two ways to build a character, PvP and PvM. And PvP vs PvM pretty much IS a "sucker punch", as you say, even WITH the 10 second limit. PvP builds will always dominate PvM builds in PvP conflict - so where's the fairness in PvM builds being subject to random attack by PvP builds they don't have a hope of defeating? Player vs. player is totally broken in D2 *except* for duelling, which my mutual hostile button would leave in the game.

To everyone: here's my view of how D2 should be arranged with regard to all these ideas. On game creation, the creator can choose "Coop" or "Wild" games. Each has significant differences:

In Coop games, going hostile requires mutual selection (allowing duels, but removing all other forms of PvP aggression). Additionally, the game creator will have two buttons available to him: Kick and Ban. After clicking each, he clicks on the name of the player he wants to Kick or Ban. Kick removes a character from the game, instantly, for a 2 minute timer; if they had a corpse in the game, it remains for 2 minutes, then goes to their current location. Ban removes a character permanently from the game, sending his corpse with him. There will also be an Unban button next to Ban, allowing unbanning of banned characters (if a mistake was made, or the banner changes his mind). Finally, there may be a button to ban all characters from the same account (don't know what it'd be called), or maybe Ban would do that anyway (you generally only Ban someone because he's behaving like an asshole, not because his character is unacceptable).

In Wild games, anyone can go hostile on anyone, with a 10 second timer required; there is no mutual requirement. However, in Wild games, the game creator has no kick or ban features available to him - the only way to get rid of griefers is to hostile them and eject them by force.

I'm hoping I've got these two options balanced enough that there would be enough people wanting to play in each. Comments?

-Kasreyn

[Guest]

Um ya Pete thanks for the insight.

[Wyrm]

I've never been a fan of pk'ing, so a mutual hostility would suit me just fine.

On the other hand, it might work to have an option on the game creation screen (like just another check box next to the level restriction one or whatever) whether or not to allow hostilities in the game. That way the game creator could still decide whether there would be fighting, but there wouldn't be an abuse of power like with the kick button.

[Taem]

I've never been a fan of pk'ing, so a mutual hostility would suit me just fine.

On the other hand, it might work to have an option on the game creation screen (like just another check box next to the level restriction one or whatever) whether or not to allow hostilities in the game.  That way the game creator could still decide whether there would be fighting, but there wouldn't be an abuse of power like with the kick button.

Couldn't that be a catch-22 thou? I mean, those who go hostile to "chase" leechers and bad manored individuals out of their games would have no recourse against them with this method, unless all they played was private games. Interesting proposal however.

[Kevin]

Just put a level restriction on the game, that stops leechers. As for people who have nothing of interest to say, squelch them (which kills whispers, regular in game message and the text over the head, so everything from that player). So, I guess you still have problems with drop stealers and just bad party players in general. Not to big of a deal.

[Grumpy]

Kasreyn:

I want to be able to hostile anyone in any game I am in, for a multitude of reasons. The solution you suggested does not make it clear whether the two different types of charachters would be playing in the same game. Please clarify.

Also, to clarify, I am only referring to softcore, not hardcore, in any of my comments regarding PKing or hostile.

[Kasreyn]

As to the game types: Under my scheme, any character of the appropriate "core" (SC for SC games, HC for HC games) can join EITHER a Wild or Coop game, as they please. There are no restrictions aside from the standard restrictions already in place on who can join what games.

Wild games are pretty much the equivalent of 1.10's upcoming system: Hostile is allowed without limit except for a timer.

Coop is merely a second option, in which hostile is totally impossible, but kick/ban are made available to the game creator.

If you look at it, you're losing nothing if you want to play PvP. Wild games would still be available for you. It's just that people who want no part of PvP play, such as myself and (I'm guessing from his posts) Pete, will be able to avoid it by joining coop games.

As to "wanting to hostile people for many reasons", then I assume you mean hostiling people in duels, to chase lamers out of games, or in self-defense from a PK. IMO hostiling someone for a sneak attack PK is cheezy, lame, stupid, and players should be given an option to avoid it completely; the wild/coop game division idea is one way to do it.

-Kasreyn