Could we PLEASE kill the Polling?

[Nicodemus Phaulkon]

Pretty please? With sugar on top? and sprinkles?

It's redundant! Even those that do participate are never content to just "vote"; many further make a response to say "I voted X because of (insert long, involved string of debateable logic and conclusions here)." It is obvious to me that a "Poll" on this forum is only an invitation to debate. In my opinion that "invitation" could be far better wrought with a single starting post, well written and well argued.

Polling is mindless. Polling is a tool. Polling provides the pollster with the ability to preclude thought and provide semi-suitable, leading "choices". Polling allows people to click an answer without an informed decision and thus provided numbers to back up dubious claims of "fact". Anyone who's ever taken statistics knows that polls are the single most abused form of "information gathering" in existence, bordering on propaganda the majority of the time.

Pete used to have a quote in his signature that went something akin to: "Democracy: a form of government where opinions are counted rather than weighed." This is the definitive role of a poll: They are trash. They represent closed minds, pigeon-holed options and skeened demographics. They obscure the truth. They discourage debate.

In a community that values truth, fact, debate and higher learning... what role does having that "Poll" button accomplish? I don't frequent the Lurker Lounge to digest "mental cotton candy"... I come here for the steak. Good topics don't melt in your mouth; you have to chew on them for awhile.

Out, damned spot.

[Kevin]

I don't disagree, but I am going to make a few points and other suggestions.

There may be a few rare occasions when the data you can generate from a poll could in fact be useful (as you said they are tool, and they can be helpful when used correctly) so it may not be the best idea to completely disable them. I would not have a problem if the poll option were disabled entirely on the boards (and it can be done, admin CP -> Forum control -> Manage -> Edit Settings -> Allow Polls flag). Or, you simply had one forum where all polls D2 related or not, would go. That way those who simply find no use in them at all could completely avoid that forum (which would most likely include myself, just like I pretty much never go into the Pandemonium Fortress since I am not looking for new people to play with or new party ideas. Then again it may not be worth it at all. It was just another idea that I wanted to throw out there.

[ShadowHM]

There may be a few rare occasions when the data you can generate from a poll could in fact be useful (as you said they are tool, and they can be helpful when used correctly) so it may not be the best idea to completely disable them.

The problem is that they are only helpful when used correctly.

There may actually be Lurkers with degrees in Market Research, who are capable of crafting a poll that will elicit some useful information. But most of us are not so trained. It is far more likely that we will continue to see polls that are unclear, omit options or just sow further confusion. I would rather see thoughtful and open-ended questions posed than the closed choice of a limited number of options. I want to know why my fellow Lurkers have such opinions or have made such choices.

If/when someone does actually come up with a poll that is useful to the Admins, or when they actually want to solicit our opinions on something, then they could re-enable the tool for that poll.

[LavCat]

I would not miss the polls, myself. Others might. Why don't we take a vote on it!

[Count Duckula]

Sounds about right. Hey, let's give Elric something to do besides defending his trout. :D Have a moderator post something in the Lounge asking about the fate of the polls. Then lock the thread and ask that people respond by PM only. Secret ballot-style. Then after a week or so, give the results. Majority rules.

[kandrathe]

Perhaps we need a standard for Poll Etiquette.

I don't think you need an advanced degree in Market Research to understand what leading responses are or what makes for a poorly crafted poll. If the poll question is fairly straight forward e.g. "Should the U.S. go to war with Iraq?" and the possible responses are "Yes", "No", "Undecided", and perhaps a "Only in conjunction with the U.N." Then it seems a valid useful poll. I think Polls may be useful for those many Lurkers are unwilling to engage or offer an opinion outright. It might lead to a debate, for those who are willing, and still provide for a summary context in which the general population can express themselves. It would be more interesting if you would be able to change your vote as the debate progressed.

The anonymous nature of the polls allow for a contribution to the discussion without risking being made to look a fool, or having to defend their position for 10-12 additional posts. Many of the recent polls suffer from a poorly crafted question, that is asking for an essay response or sub select the possible responses from only a fraction of the possible response domain. e.g. "What is your favorite Marvel character?"; "Wolverine" or "Night crawler" OR "What is the nature of a man?"

But yet I agree with Nico that something more should be done. IMO, I think many of the recent "Polls" have been frivolous, or placed in the wrong forum and most are not well crafted. They should have been moved, locked, and/or forgotten. If we had some rules we could at least beat the offenders with them.

[gekko]

Perhaps we need a standard for Poll Etiquette.

A "poll etiquette?" Please. The only etiquette required is the same informal one we follow (hopefully) for regular posts.

No one is forcing you to vote or to view the results of these polls. The author of the poll may want to see some numbers -- just because those numbers only tell a small picture of the whole story doesn't devalue the numbers themselves. As Nik pointed out, the polls nearly always include long, more detailed responses. The poll option may only add some numbers (that don't really mean much), but nor does it detract from the responses that follow.

As for the fact that "many recent polls have been frivolous," so have many regular boring old threads. It's not the poll option that makes the thread frivolous -- it's the author.

I don't understand why people are so intent on flaming the poll feature -- it may be limited in use, but it does have some use. If you must flame polls, flame them one at a time (assuming they deserve it).

The fact that polls have been "frivolous" does not mean the poll option should be eliminated, just as the presence of "frivolous" posts doesn't mean the post option should be removed.

gekko

[kandrathe]

A "poll etiquette?" Please. The only etiquette required is the same informal one we follow (hopefully) for regular posts.

I see your point, and I can live with it either way.

The rest of what you said, I agree with.

[Archon_Wing]

The main problem with polls is that the choices may not accurately reflect what people are really thinking and there's always a large group who's opinions are being left out simply because it's not being included.

[WarBlade]

Agreed.

So far I think I've seen 2, maybe 3 polls that I'd consider legitimate. All the rest have struck me as being something where "other" was the only appropriate option for me to check and naturally the bone-head idiots that wrote up the poll with bone-headed options were too thick to include a way out for a an acceptable option. :huh:

The polls have been spam. <_<

Get rid of them.

[gekko]

Agreed.

So far I think I've seen 2, maybe 3 polls that I'd consider legitimate. All the rest have struck me as being something where "other" was the only appropriate option for me to check and naturally the bone-head idiots that wrote up the poll with bone-headed options were too thick to include a way out for a an acceptable option. :huh:

The polls have been spam.&nbsp; <_<

Get rid of them.

I've seen many absolutely useless posts and threads in the forums.

Get rid of them.

It's not that simple.

gekko

[Archon_Wing]

Ah, but there have been useful posts and threads. :) But the greatest flaw of them is their lack of flexbility. (see my last post) If you were going for factual data, "have you ever been convicted of a felony?" then a poll might work. Of course we still don't know what kind of felony it was. Nor can you possbiliy list all the possbile felonies effectively.

If you will notice, most of the polls you see on the news are usually large scale (>1000) and are meant to be a sample of a larger population. That's because it's impossbile to interview a million people in a timely fashion. There are not millions of people at the lounge. :)

Polls are flawed and they leave out people's opinions. There is nothing a thread can do that a poll can't.

Polls like "Do you believe time travel exists?" (No offense, it's just convient) are vague because it's not that simple. Heck, even a poll on polls was a pain. :P

[--Pete]

Hi,

The main problem is that, if reading posts in threaded view, every time you open a post you have to stare at that brain dead poll while scrolling down to the discussion. :)

But, seriously, the polls are useless. All Internet polls are useless because the respondents are self selected. And one doesn't have to have a degree in marketing to know that, a little common sense and a certificate from Trudy's Preschool is enough.

In the rare case (so far hypothetical) where a poll might be called for, a poll without the option to respond would be better. However, since the Lounge is *not* a democracy (it is a benign dictatorship ;) ), I'm hard pressed to think what would actually call for a poll.

--Pete

[gekko]

Polls are flawed and they leave out people's opinions.

Your argument doesn't work, I'm afraid -- if the poll option was a poll with NO choice to add a longer reply, I'd agree with you. Particularly since you're correct in that internet polls are very poor at giving good, hard data. However, the poll is but a part of these threads.

And, more to the point, the english language (any language, for that matter) is flawed. I never get my exact point across, and I'm not a bad writter. Ask anyone at the lounge, or any writter anywhere - no matter how talented; no matter how experienced, writting is flawed.

Sometimes people might want to see how many lurkers select a given option in a poll. Will it give them as much information as a detailed thread? Of course not. But sometimes some numerical data is interesting to consider.

I guess my point is that just because poll's aren't perfect, they shouldn't be nixed just like that.

I personally wouldn't miss the polls if they were gone. I think, however, that the best bet is for us to deal with stupid polls the same way we deal with stupid threads. Flame and/or ignore ridiculous polls as the situation demmands, just as we flame and/or ignore ridiculous posts. This kind of thing works for the regular threads; it can work for the polls.

gekko

[Kevin]

I'll be honest, my only reason for defending them was selfish. You may remember I am working on a threaded hack. I am hoping to have two templates to show, and I will want feed back on those two templates. A poll of which of these two do you like better so that I can please more Lurkers will make it simpler for me than manually counting the answers in a thread. Yes the feedback in the thread will be helpful, but where I am going with what I am doing, and with the skill I have, a simple A or B with the forum software doing the counting for me would be better. The way things work, I will not be able to implement both methods as a choice, it would be develop one or the other. (Neither of which look like they will be able to mask the 'brain dead poll' sorry).

Though, this has all been said. Those choices are absolutes. The self selected audience is the only audience whos opinion matters. Of course as you said that data may still be irrelevant if Bolty doesn't like either, or simply says, give me that one. I have no, and desire no, official position with this board. I am working on a better threaded view for this board software because of the Lounge, because I want to. That and I wanted to learn more PHP, and get a little deeper into the working of message boards.

I also have one more poll planned on the same lines. I believe I have found 2 acceptable button replacements for the blue reply buttons we have, I think a poll to consolidate opinion on them would be nice to get. Again, do I need a poll feature to do this? No. Would it help some? Yes.

Again, I still don't care if they stay or if they go, heck I almost bothered to look for the global setting so you could shut them off without doing it forum by forum, but didn't really care that much. But I did want to respond to give a poll choice that wasn't hypothetical and did still have meaning, even if they are just planned poll choices. That is all, nothing major.

[Obi2Kenobi]

Polls like "Do you believe time travel exists?" (No offense, it's just convient) are vague because it's not that simple.

I can't find a poll like that.. I can find one that asks what you think of the article explaining a little about time travel with some speculation in it. :D

[Albion Child]

Agreed...

Everlasting Gobstoppers are much better...

[Guest]

Most of the polls here are a waste though.

[gekko]

Most of the polls here are a waste though.

This issue has been brought up several times. I've seen many threads which I consider a waste. That's not reason enough to can the whole forum.

The solution? Better polls. Polls CAN be usefull. Is the information they give limited? Of course. But the problem with the polls is not the option to use them but the specific questions and choices provided. The blame falls upon the authors of the polls.

gekko

[Bolty]

It is done...

Polls are now admin-only. If you think of a REALLY neat idea for a poll, we could run with it, but otherwise members can no longer create polls.

-Bolty