Rant: Game interface design

[monkeycid]

M builds a marine while c builds a medic. Yes they do begin with the same letter, but that's still annoying. I don't know many people that can associate the letter c with medic immediately

It's because Medic is a BroodWar only unit. The marine was in original starcraft and was thus given M. I think C is a totally OK hotkey for medic - since e, d and I would have been just as illogical. How do YOU think they should solve the marine/medic hotkey conflict?:)

I really like the interface for almost all blizzard games (Not warcraft 1, though :) ). Easy to learn, mostly intinuitive and just nice ;).

Pete, if you select a (unitproducing) building in Warcraft 3, rightclick is "gather" point. So Blizzard learned their lesson from starcraft. Should make you happy :P

I wish there was more unit grouping hotkeys though. I go through 9 hotkeys in a second, although it can be considered a intentional limitation, since you could macro in a siiiick way if you had like 18 unit groupings. Yumm, macro...

Also, I'm ruined by playing Quake with my brother. He used inverted mouse so now I do it too. Can't play with "normal" mouse. Bah.

When I play *most* games (very few exceptions) I sit with my (left) index, long and ring finger on AWD, pinky on shift and thumb on space. The best FPS / RTS / Diablo hand position, IMO :)

[--Pete]

Hi,

(Yer problem, Pete, is that evidently you have not accepted the triumph of stupidity in our universe (evil was a close second)).

It will only triumph when the last person accepts that it has. Until then, the most you can claim is that it is way ahead.

Of course, as they say, "Half the population is below average, and average ain't all that good." And even that is generous, IMO. I'm a believer in recursive application of Sturgeon's Law. ;)

--Pete

[Kasreyn]

The MOST annoying single thing in Brood War (to me), BY FAR, is the following:

Say you have a unit of M&M (Marines & Medics) which you want to make an attack-move with. 4 Medics, 8 'Rines. You attack-click on the opposite side of a cluster of 3 Sunken Colonies. Your guys walk there until the Marines get in attack range and open fire. But your Medics keep walking! Right into the 6 Zerglings waiting behind the Sunkens, and your Marines are already locked onto targeting the Sunkens. Thus, what should have been a nice neat Zerg bloodbath instead turns into a complete write-off of 600 minerals and 100 gas.

What Blizzard SHOULD have done was have the medic AI behave AS IF they had a ranged weapon with the range of a Marine's gun, and halt in "firing range" of the enemy. Whereupon, the Marines would have taken damage within the medics' range, causing their heal AI to go into effect as it should. Instead the Medics always blitzkrieg the enemy, and the only solution I've found is either to waste tons of time micromanaging the Medics, or have them in their own seperate unit, which means they can't heal as efficiently.

This is SO annoying, it's almost enough to make me not play the BW expansion at all.

-Kasreyn

[Archon_Wing]

>M builds a marine while c builds a medic. Yes >they do begin with the same letter, but that's still >annoying. I don't know many people that can associate >the letter c with medic immediately

It's because Medic is a BroodWar only unit. The marine was in original starcraft and was thus given M. I think C is a totally OK hotkey for medic - since e, d and I would have been just as illogical. How do YOU think they should solve the marine/medic hotkey conflict?:)

Ok, fine! But I think I would settle for "e" :D

Yes, I must be picky! Why "V' for Science vessel? Wraith, Dropship and Battlecrusier do not begin with S. You can't stop a starport when it's on the ground and that just screws up valkyrie too. It's not like V is easier to reach :P

And I still think P would have been better for psonic storm. Why the heck would anyone patrol them?

Plus I don't like commanding my workers to attack constantly to only have them stop and run away again. :)

But hey, I actualy like the interface, but some things just confuse me.

The programmers do have it hard, I must admit. Something tends to go wrong. But that's why they get paid for it, and why we that pay for the product get to be critical of everything.

Edit: Edit feature screws up quotes.

[Archon_Wing]

The MOST annoying single thing in Brood War (to me), BY FAR, is the following:

Say you have a unit of M&M (Marines & Medics) which you want to make an attack-move with.  4 Medics, 8 'Rines.  You attack-click on the opposite side of a cluster of 3 Sunken Colonies.  Your guys walk there until the Marines get in attack range and open fire.  But your Medics keep walking!  Right into the 6 Zerglings waiting behind the Sunkens, and your Marines are already locked onto targeting the Sunkens.  Thus, what should have been a nice neat Zerg bloodbath instead turns into a complete write-off of 600 minerals and 100 gas.

What Blizzard SHOULD have done was have the medic AI behave AS IF they had a ranged weapon with the range of a Marine's gun, and halt in "firing range" of the enemy.  Whereupon, the Marines would have taken damage within the medics' range, causing their heal AI to go into effect as it should.  Instead the Medics always blitzkrieg the enemy, and the only solution I've found is either to waste tons of time micromanaging the Medics, or have them in their own seperate unit, which means they can't heal as efficiently.

This is SO annoying, it's almost enough to make me not play the BW expansion at all.

-Kasreyn

Ha! I hate my stupid medics too. I think have lost games to that. That and my lack of general skills. But that's kinda hard to program correctly. Right now, they react if a neaby units gets hurt. What if you had a mix of marines and firebats? Your firebats would just get killed. Wait, I think I found a solution to your problem :D

I'm no gosu, but I have four ways to go around this:

1.) Attack-move to outside the creep area. That way the medic will just stop there. Do not just attack-move to some area of the map. Amubshes will screw you up. Just last night I had all my medics run into the enemy base when my marines decided to chase after zerglings. And yes, this is a game balance issue. Terrans were supposed to be weak to ambushes because they are very, very stupid. Wait, not sure if its the programmers fault. I should take my own advice, as I have lost entire squads to bad micro :P

2.) Use firebats+ marines. The medics will heal them.

3.) Stim-pack your marines and move. Most people do this, and the medics will automaticaly chase after.

4.) You need tanks. :P You're not supposed to be able to ovecome this heavily armored tentacled structure-beast by just using machine guns :P Yes, I know that's not a solution. But a marine dies in two hits and multiple sunkens kill them faster than medics can heal.

Actualy no, M+m do take out sunkens well, but most people don't just build sunkens.

But I like Brood War better. Dumb medics are better than no medics.

[Copadope]

This kind of problem was handled quite nicely in Total Annihilation (a similar RTS game of the Starcraft era). TA had a command called "Guard," so you could tell your medic units to guard the fighters and they would follow them around everywhere and fix them whenever needed. This way you could just select the fighters and tell them to attack and the medics stayed back with them. Of course if you're in a pinch and you just start mass selecting and attacking, the system falls apart and the medics start rushing. Guarding also came in handy if you had a large group of various units that needed to travel a long way, because you could tell the quick units to guard the fat, slow ones and they'd all arrive to the fight at the same time.

[loonygloss]

I'm pretty sure that I remember doing that with medics in BW as well - right-click a group of medics on a marine, and they'll follow him the rest of their days.
Also, for setting rally points, I know that the right click works for this in BW (select building(s), right-click at rally point), but I can't remember if it does in SC.
The other thing that I wish worked was setting a "town hall" rally point to a mineral patch - I can never remember to keep coming back to get my drones harvesting.

[--Pete]

Hi,

Got it and the Core Contingency on my CD rack. Pretty good games and I don't remember too much of an interface problem. However, Cave Dog went a little wild with the units. What was it, a new unit every week? I should call my son-in-law and ask him, he was working for them at the time.

And that was why I lost interest, too much change. TA just didn't suck me in 24/7 like it did some people, and without that kind of dedication, it was just too much of a hassle learning a new game every couple of weeks. But I remember it being pretty fun, so maybe I'll reinstall it and see if it's as good as I thought.

--Pete

[Copadope]

I've been looking for TA and the expansion for the longest time in used racks and bargain bins, but I can never find it. I suppose I could easily acquire a burned copy, but this is one game I'd like to own as an original. I had actually borrowed the game from a friend of mine when I got into it, and this happened a while after the game originally came out. So I missed out on the "new unit every week" deal, but I found a few sites that had oodles of units to download. By the time I really felt I knew what I was doing in that game, Cavedog got shut down or went out of business or something. I only played against another human once (and I won :D), but I would love to get back into that game.

Perhaps I'll continue my search for it on Ebay...

[Xiuhcoatl]

One of the nice things about SC is that you get several games in one box. There are the SP missions, MP UMS games, MP PvP games and MP PvC games. Although similar, the latter two require a different mindset. A person who plays a lot of PvC will be handicapped in PvP games, due to the numerous "bad habits" acquired.

Me and four comp against you should just about be fair.

You must have someone else in mind. I was never good enough for such a challenge! Too bad the latest patch made most of the replays I've collected unwatchable (I would have to go back to an earlier version to view them). Otherwise, I could show you a few people who can handle such a game -). Then again, if you play like a computer, I might accept such a challenge on "The Hunters Gamei" map. I've never tried a 1v5 on that map, so I better start practicing -). ("Hunters-Gamei" is a better version of "The Hunters" map that can be readily downloaded on bnet. The start point balance issues have been fixed and it is the most popular map for skilled 3v3 PvP games.) Be sure to download and run the latest patches so that you can save and watch replays of your games. When you get around to playing some pvc games, you can learn the most by watching the replays. Of course, if you ever get to that point, then I expect you to invite me to join you!

IIRC, I ruined one or two games that you were in  I recently restarted the SP game since I'd never finished it and was curious what the story was all about. Besides, I just picked up BW from a bargain bin and so wanted to get back up to speed (or what passes for speed when I play an RTS  )

I don't know how you could have ruined any of my games back then, since I didn't know what I was doing until a year or two after BW was released (BTW, some people might argue that I still don't know what I am doing.) =P. I have yet to play the SP games, but I have watched all the mini-movies. Some of them are quite entertaining =).

I don't play RTS (they still called that?) any more against actual people, at least not until angioplasty is performed by the corner drug store. Of course, my bro gave me WC3 and I loaded it and... it doesn't work *sigh* ... it's not like I would have liked it that much I guess. Tho it looks to me like Diablo 3 and WC4 will be combined into something called WoW (or was it HuH?), so I better get to know WC3 I guess. Guess I'll try to make it work. -Van

Hi Van! Yup, "RTS" is still a widely used term. Some of the WC3 trailers are quite well done. Too bad I can't say the same about the game.

Xi

PS to VD: I did receive a copy of your post from Magi and I sent you a message via icq, but shortly after responding my icq stopped functioning. I have not been able to get it to run since then. Perhaps it got tossed into the same category as WC3 on your comp -).

[Kevin]

I know its been awhile since I played Starcraft, but I used to be very active in 98, 99, and 00 (as Sixpence most of the time, not Gnollguy), and while Hunters was a decent map (I realize you didn't say Big Game Hunters the complete and utter piece of crap that it was along with all its crappy variants) I don't recall anyone considering it a great map or a skill map.

[Walkiry]

I just cranked up StarCraft and after about two minutes quit in disgust. Why? The piss poor interface, that's why. Specifically, to assign a unit to a number, you use Ctr+number, but to assign a location to F2-4 you use Shift+F#. Similarly, with a unit selected, you right click to give it a task or location. But if you click on "land", "scatter", "rally point", etc. then you have to LEFT click again.

Diablo and D2 have similar nonsense, but then again so do many other games.

Why????

Come on Pete, you know why.

Take a team of 6 programmers.

After defining the specs of the code, split the tasks into several sets (one guy working with unit grouping/group interaction and so, another one working on the map locations/camera focus/etc, and so on). Be very specific as how the code should be written.

Make double, triple sure the code you've written is bug free. Spend an ungodly amount of time doing this because in your last game the company got fried about the bugs.

Put the different pieces together in haste as you approach the overenthusiastic release date given by some higher-up self-proclaimed genius.

Realize only then that you didn't actually write down in the beginning of the project the simplest feature specifications (like what keys do that, what the general keyboard layout should be for everything, and then keep it as a standard through the whole development team).

Oops.

:)

Edit: one day later I see the terrible typo. Sorry about that Pete ^_^

[--Pete]

Hi,

Take a team of 6 programmers.

. . .

Realize only then that you didn't actually write down in the beginning of the project the simplest feature specifications . . .

Oh, I'm quite well aware of the massacre that passes for a "process" in the software industry. My "Why?" wasn't "How does it happen?" It was "Why is it still happening?" :)

--Pete

[goldfish]

Who are the monkeys? Simple:

"If you take an infinite number of monkeys and an infinite number of computers eventually they will produce StarCraft."

The same team of monkeys is currently working on patch 1.10, based on the corollary theory:

"If you take an infinite number of monkeys and an infinite number of computers eventually they will produce patch 1.10."

Any more questions? :P

[SwissMercenary]

One thing I don't get is Ctrl for shooting in FPS games...
Ctrl is for crouching, ye blockheads!

Also, I am depressed about the amount of games that don't have crouch-lock... I use it exculsively in Deus Ex, and Thief.

Otherwise, my absolute most hated default controll system was Tribes 2. Instead of the normal WASD movement, those blockheads used ESDF. My fingers always moved 1 key to the left, with the result being me using a repair kit, instead of moving forward... They also had jump-jets on N... I quickly bound that to second mouse button.

A good interface that I admire is in Battlefield: 1942. It uses the standard movement for infantry, Jeeps/APCs/Ships use the standard racing system, Tanks use the racing system, but are able to turn on the spot, and the turret (And your view) turn independantly of the tank, and planes use the inverted flying keys... I remember when I tried to fly with the mouse :lol:

[--Pete]

Hi,

You must have someone else in mind. I was never good enough for such a challenge!

Well, you gotta make allowances. Since my typical contribution in multi is about -1, me and 3 comps = 2 effective opponents :)

Of course, if you ever get to that point, then I expect you to invite me to join you!

I'll be sure to do that, assuming we're awake at the same time :)

I have yet to play the SP games, but I have watched all the mini-movies.

They would probably be too easy for you. But it is interesting (at least for me) getting the backstory. Magi wants me to get into Age of Empires, but this "tired, intolerant geezer" doesn't feel up to learning a new build tree right now ;)

Later,

--Pete

[Selby]

My only addition to this thread is I was extremely disappointed with how 3DO\NWC changed the engine for Might and Magic IX from the previous version. They keys were so non-intuitive and the functionality of the world was reduced to almost nothing. I tried re-mapping the keys to what the previous versions had (which were quite easy to use once you spent about 10-15 minutes figuring out everything) but that failed. They changed a game that had a decent pace and good storyline to a Super Mario Bros. running and jumping clone. I cannot stand it when I have to use a non-intuitive interface to solve running and jumping puzzles. Want to make me never buy your product again? Put in a running and jumping puzzle with a lousy control system.

Bah.

Selby, brought to you by the letter "ö"

[Kasreyn]

One thing I don't get is Ctrl for shooting in FPS games...
Ctrl is for crouching, ye blockheads!

Heh, I see someone started playing FPSes after Quake. ^_^

In the olden days (Doom, Duke Nukem), Ctrl was the accepted standard for fire because most of the games didn't HAVE a crouch feature.

These days, my FPS setup is as follows:

Mouse1: Fire
Mouse2: Reload (in games w/ reload; otherwise alt fire)
Mousewheel: Change weapon
Mouse: aiming (mouse controls look, not move)
Enter: use item / interact
Shift: Jump
Right Ctrl: Crouch
arrows: movement
Del: sidestep left
PgDn: sidestep right
End: alt fire or zoom, depending on game
Home: zoom or center view, depending on game
numpad: chat macros
backslash: mouse move (for very fine sidesteps)

-Kasreyn

[Nystul]

I'm putting my hand where your listing controls, and I'm not seeing how that's gonna work :P Might just be the difference in keyboards though. I guess I'm one of those SDF blockheads Swiss was talking about, because I like something more like this:

Mouse: mlook
Wheel: whatever game supports
LMB: fire
RMB: walk forward
D: sidestep left
F: sidestep right
SPACE: jump
S: backpedal
A: weapon toggle
C: crouch
1-8: weapon select
Q: reverse weapon toggle

Any macros, game specific functions, etc. would then revolve around the F key: ERTGVWX
If I could macro a grapple hook on G, I usually did.

Ctrl is the absolute last key I ever want to use in a game, especially now that most keyboards have that Windows key right beside it.
Shift is acceptable, but it's just another key. I'd rather have it be something I don't use very often, and rest my pinky on A. I spend enough of my life typing that this is where my left hand *wants* to be :)

[yangman]

Text-based MUDs: they have the best interface ever.

A single box dedicated to input.
You see what you try to do before you excecute it.
No complicated control and key mapping scheme to memorize (although the same can't be said for spell and skill systems...)
Two hands on your keyboard: no need to move around.
"move" is for moving, "kill" is for killing, and when you want to quit, just "quit". (some restrictions apply ;))

Not to mention the fact that most of them don't require 256MB RAM, an overpowered CPU and a video card that costs over half-a-grand.


On the issue of FPS, I perfer ESDF setup over WASD. Why? You just reach more keys that way. With a split keyboard, at least half of the keyboard is unaccessible (or at least very uncomfortable to reach.) -- playing StarCraft is very painful this way. With a ESDF setup, a slight stretch of a finger or flick of the wrist gives me comfortable access to around 25 keys. The pinky alone is allowed access to three more keys besides Ctrl and Shift.

I map almost all my games to the standard typing position now, including Diablo. It's very convinient combined with a 5-button mouse.