Tough socketing choice

[Ignatz]

I'm making an Avenger Pally, (Fant, Conv, Veng) and am trying to decide what his best weapon ultimately would be. I've got an Atlantean, a lowish damage Lightsabre and a Baranar's Star -- which look like fun toys. But which would serve him best? I assume the Baranar's, in which case, the tough socketing choice: shael or a 38% ED jewel?

I know it's a silly thing to ask opinions for, but I just hate regretting a socketing choice. A lot.

:)

[Nicodemus Phaulkon]

... you've hardly given enough information. Shael and Enhanced Damage jewels are hardly the only option to consider, regardless of the weapon.

You seem to be forecasting your equipment. Assuming you have said equipment already muled, your choice for socketing should be based on your entire "suit", not just the weapon. However, if you do not have said equipment muled, I'd chalk this speculation up to foolishness.

That being said:

You're a paladin; you're an Avenger. That's nice. What are your resistances in Hell difficulty? What shield are you planning on? Will you have sufficient life steal? Will you have sufficient blocking percentage? etc. etc. etc.

Neither Barstar nor Lightsabre will benefit overmuch from a Shael; especially considering your intent to use Fanaticism. Further, neither one will benefit overmuch from the small boost that an ED jewel can foster. The actual physical damage from these weapons isn't your prime concern as an Avenger. All told, the ED jewel is better off in your helm or armor.

Other considerations would be life steal, if you don't have it elsewhere. Also Crushing Blow or Deadly Strike shouldn't be overlooked. While Ber and Lo's 20% boost, respectively, isn't overmuch... when coupled with other equipment that stacks the percentages, it can become an awesome effect. Another consideration, always, is resists. Having a Scintillating jewel in a weapon might make some people look askance, but it is YOUR weapon.

Socketing, if you'll pardon the pun, is for filling the "holes" in your character's abilities. You'll need to determine what those "holes" are.

*tips helm*

[kier]

It depends on your leech. If your mana leech isn't very good, use the light, otherwise use the baranas, as it has better damage, both elemental and phisical. Try and soc it with an amn rune as this will give yuo good ll, which you need for conviction. Good luck,

kier

[Ignatz]

Good points all around. I'll clarify:

I'm going for as high a damage output as possible. I love paladins, but I've found that the best way a pally controls the crowds is to take them down as fast as possible, one by one. My big hope, pally-wise, for the patch is that Blessed Hammer is _slightly_ increased in damage; just enough to be a viable support skill that would actually soften crowds at a reasonable speed. I don't want a sorc skill here, just something that doesn't need to be constantly cast for 30 seconds to soften. Anyway, the mose viable alternative I've found is to just pour the damage out, mano e mano.

That said, my other reason for assuming a shael or ED jewel is that I tend to feel uncomfortable killing off the trade value of an item with a quesitonable socket. Sure an Amn rune might be perfect for my build, but it's much more likely that others will want something more general. That's why, IMO, ED jewels yet belong in weapons; if nothing else, they retain full or better than full trade value.

My already-muled outfit is the following:

Atlantean
Baranar's
Lightsabre
Guardian Angel
Stormshield

With the rest undecided. Pretty boring and basic, I guess, but I've never had these items before and wanted to build a pally to take advantage of them. I can't yet count on having X% IAS or anything else since I just don't know yet what I'll be wearing. Probably whatever I pick up and dust off.

That said, with the new cube upgrade recipe, probably the Atlantean would be the best bet? Again, my priority is high damage output. Does vengeance use the base damage of the weapon to calculate elem damage, in which case an ED jewel wouldn't help out the elemental part of it, or does it calculate it afterward, in which case the ED would be very useful?

Thanks for the input!

[kandrathe]

Fanaticism on an upgraded Headstriker(150%ed +1max dmg/lvl) would beat the upgraded Atlantean(250%ed). See this page by Tommi for calculating ultimate damage. At lvl 66 (req for upgraded Atlantean), the Headstriker will have a 99% chance to do deadly strike on the physical portion of the damage.

The upgraded Atlantean at req lvl 66, (40-52) * 3.5 = (140 - 182) (161 avg).

Roughly the upgraded Headstriker(req lvl 58) at Lvl 66 (same as Upgraded Atlantean, so apples = apples) would do (37-53)*2.5+(1* 66 cLvl) = (160-200) (180 avg).

The premise here is that the additional +34% on fanaticism from the +2 Paladin skills on the Atlantean will yield less than the double damage due to deadly strike.

The banana has the 3-600 elemental which is nothing to sneeze at but won't be factored into the massive physical dmg multipliers.

From Tommi's page;

Assuming Hell Physical resistance is gone, but otherwise same as Tommi's, Str is 150, no imunities, chance to hit = 100%.

DamagePerSecond = WeaponDamage * ((1 + Strength / 100 + MightBonus / 100 + FanaticismBonus / 100 + Deadlystrike/100) + NoOfElements * VengeanceBonus / 100) * 25 / AttackFrames * ChanceToHit / 100

Vengeance DPS = 180 * ((1+150/100 + 300/100 + 475/100 + 99/100) + 3*232/100) * 25/8 *100/100 = 180*((1+1.5+3+4.75+.99)+6.96)*3.125*1 = 180*((11.24)+6.96)*3.125 = 180*56.875 = 10238 / sec.

Zeal DPS = 180 * (1+150/100 + 300/100 + 475/100 + 99/100) * 25/4 *100/100 = 180*11.24*6.25 = 180*70.25 = 12645 / sec.

That is, without a socketed jewel or rune. For comparison, Hell Baal has 69431 hit points.

But, then again -- what will you use prior to being able to uber twink? :D

:) Maybe someone would check my math, but I think it is correct.

[Brista]

Vengeance damage is based on the base physical damage of your weapon

A good cruel would be actually quite hard to beat

[kandrathe]

Agreed. For his equipment, he seemed to be going for the free cheese items. I just wanted to point out that there may be better weapons. For my money, finding the right magical and rare items is still the most rewarding part of the game.

I have a couple elite rares that have spawned Merciless and Screaming prefixs together. But, even a magical Cruel (Conquest/Ancient) Sword of Evisceration (which you can get shopping) would be good.

[Roland]

The actual physical damage from these weapons isn't your prime concern as an Avenger.

That's where you're wrong. Since Vengeance is based on the physical damage you do, the more physical damage you have, the more you (exponentially) increase your total damage. While true that it won't directly affect your performance against Physical Immunes (every meleer's worst nightmare), it in actuality DOES directly (or is it indirectly?) affect your performance against them, since all your elemental damage (which is all Vengeance adds) from Vengeance is based on your physical damage. :)

Personally, I'm preferable to two-handed Avengers, myself, eschewing Fanaticism, Shields, and Dexterity for constant Conviction (-90% DR cuts the need for Dex / AR dramatically, although it still can give you headaches if you don't have at least one good +AR item) and massive damage. The problems? 1) Speed, 2) Life, 3) Resists. Lack of blocking is bad, but it's the lack of resistances from the Shield slot, combined with the generally slow swing-speed (not to mention the massive requirements for most two-handed weapons; since I don't use a shield, I typically avoid Polearms since not only are they typically slow, but the only even moderately fast ones require heavy Dex investment, and I just can't spare that many points from Vitality) that really hurts the build. Add in the heavy requirements, which cuts your ability to pump Vitality for Life (a HUGE necessity, since not only will you have no blocking, but you'll be swinging slower, thus needing to take on only a few enemies at a time, and have less resistances, thus needing to be careful about who you face and when), and you're looking at a real challenge.

It's a fun build, IF you can get the right equipment. Axes are your best bet for it, but Polearms are certainly doable (IK Maul works very nicely, IF you can get one; if you play pure, go for Axes ;)). You kill fast when you hit, but your potential (minor) lack of AR and slower swing speed make it necessary to take it a bit slower overall.

I just had to comment on that little bit, Nico, and I couldn't help but throw in my input on my favorite Avenger build. ;) I'm an old-school Avenger fan from way back before LoD. Hell, before even 1.06, the truly "Golden Days" of D2 gaming. :) Just a minor nit. :)

[Ignatz]

I had entirely overlooked Headstriker...course, I don't have one, but it looks great. (Have you noticed that torturing meph before he dies, I mean really playing with his life, still doesn't make him fess up to where he hid all the good stuff? :) )

The comparison to Zeal is insteresting...I didn't think the damage output would keep up with vengeance. My only problem with zeal is that, well, it's sort of icky to use. That is, the wiffing bothers me, as does blocking interruption, the vulnerability of the pally mid-swing, and the unpredictable affects of an unreliable server sync. That, and any skill that says "put EXACTLY X points in me, because nothing else makes an ounce of sense" (given X < 20) is just sort of a game design issue that I have, and that bothers me as well. Besides, something about fanatic vengeance just makes for a great pally persona. You know, the frothing mouth, the bloodshot eyes, revenge-filled heart, unkempt hair, that sort of thing.

The uber-twink thing is sort of a reward I use for my characters. I generally don't twink my characters in the lower levels, but I reward them later when they've meted out what whoopass they could off the fat of the land. I mean, I know it's a silly pre-adolescent fantasy for me, but I like giving the hero the mythical, super-duper use-me-to-kill-kill-kill weapon right before beating Baal on Hell. Makes for a vaguely dramatic climax to the Big Kill.

Ignatz

PS: My fanatic avenger scarfs down Fallen-burgers, raw, every day! *froth froth froth*

[Ignatz]

I'm liking this pally, so I may try a two-handed build with the patch. How much IAS do you tend to shoot for with something like a big axe or maul?

Hm, come to think of it, is Defiance flash-able? I'm wondering if you could go with a Def heavy build, flash Defiance, switch to conviction, then jump into a big fray, then rinse and repeat until the numbers are handleable without Defiance.

Sorry for the newbiesque questions, by the way, all, but after my year off D2, I'm a bit rusty on some of the details.

[Ignatz]

You know, you're right. Finding that juicy rare is a ton of fun. But you know what? I doesn't happen. I mean, it seems to me your chances of picking up a usable rare for a lvl 50+ char are less than finding the unique version of whatever it is you picked up.

Caution: Rare rant approaching...

It is, in my mind, the single most frustrating thing about LOD. Rares were what MADE D2 for me. I loved finding them. Nothing was more delightful than picking up and dusting off a nice shiny bunch of yellow letters. Why? Because there was a fricking chance that it was better than the uniques! That you may find something WORTH using the naming quest on. How I miss those days! I don't want to see a hundred other pallys running around with Headstriker or the Atlantean...I want to see everybody decked out in what should be the season's hottest color: yellow! Then equipment choices become real ones: do you use the such-and-such with four great mods, or the so-and-so with six decent mods? Do you use the rare with the leech or the rare with the extra resists? Even if you have a rare collosus blade with perfect stats except that it's lacking, say, 10% IAS that it could have, it's STILL exciting to pick up another yellow one. What's the point of picking up another gold-lettered whatever-and-whatever if you already have one. Oh whee, it may have slightly higher ED than my OTHER one-of-a-kind-unique (a big Ha! to that, by the way). It's infuriating. When the best weapons come from shop owners, why pick up a yellow weapon at all? Sure, there's a one in a jabizzilion chance it might have almost as much damage as an easily-purchased cruel, but call me callous, I don't care! I want items that I find, that nobody has but me, that I WANT to personalize, and that DONT appear with attacker takes damage of 2, increased light radius +1, and -- my personal favorite -- the all-exciting +5 to stamina!

Thusly ended thine rant. Nyet!

[Albion Child]

Most of the uniques are at least useful to characters at the level they were designed for.

Finding an "UBER" rare is awesome, but the simple fact is that rares suck nowadays. I'm very tired of finding a grand crown rare in act 5 hell with practically the same mods as a cap would get in act 1 norm.

I don't really prefer rares over uniques over sets..I just use what suite the character best!