Your daily "What the heck are they thinking?" post

[WarLocke]

21-year-old commits suicide because a website taught her how to.

After reading this and seeing a blurb about an "obesity tax" on Tech Live!, I'm convinced we (USA) now need a Stupidity Tax.

Sigh.

- WL

[pakman]

She needed a website?? Couldn't figure it out on her own? Sounds like that story a while ago where a kid was literally watched while over dosing on various drugs through a webcam in a chatroom, while people watched and encouraged.

[Occhidiangela]

"There is only one sin in the universe, stupidity, and it is punishable by death."

That seems to be the operating concept here. How nice for netizens to encourage someone to overdose, such warmth and human understanding.

I wonder if these stories are "urban legends" or close to the truth.

[Munkay]

She needed a website?? Couldn't figure it out on her own?

Excerpt from the deceased's father: “there’s no way she would have known how to kill herself if they hadn’t told her how.”


:blink:

[Baylan]

Stupidity is the fastest growing disease in the world... There is no cure that seems to work 100% of the time - the closest I've found is a good beating by some close friends. It is unfortunate about this girl, but give me a break; the internet did not kill this girl, the people putting the information out there and encouraging her did.

I'll stop before I get into a pointless rant, but what a pointless death. *sigh*

Baylan

[Tuy]

It said that she had a disability. I don't know if that means a mental disability.

[pakman]

No it's an actual story that made the WSJ or the Tribune, I'll look for the article.

http://www.azcentral.com/health/0203fatalw...bcast03-ON.html

Edit: Found the article, but in a different paper. I was also mistaken that it was a teen, it turns out it was a 21 yr. old guy.

[Occhidiangela]

The article you linked reminds me of a few dead students at the University of Virginia back in the 80's that induced the authorities there to crack down on the "Easters Week" celebrations/binges. (Once the best party in the country, IMO.)

This fellow seems to have fallen into the same trap as regards a self inflicted drinking wound.

[Feryar]

the internet did not kill this girl, the people putting the information out there and encouraging her did.

Is that the same as "guns don't kill people, people kill people"?? :P

There are newsgroups out there where people discuss ways to kill themselves, and psyche each other up to do it, and for some individuals those groups could trigger a selfdestructive action.
That is of course not a reason to turn off the entire net, but you can't deny the fact that the net does help spreading all kinds off unwanted information as well as useful information. Childporn, Bomb recipes, etc.
I'm not saying the internet is to blame for things like that, but it is a contributing factor. A small one, though.

If I want to, I can find the recipe for making a pipe-bomb within the day. Would I be able to do that without the internet? I don't think I would.
As for the kid who OD'd in front of the webcam, that might have been an accident waiting to happen, but it was still triggered by the fact that he got to do it in public with people encouraging him to keep going. He might or might not have done it without the attention he got, something we will never know. If he didn't do it in front of his webcam chances are we would never have heard about it. Did that make it easier for him to do it? the chance to get "famous"?

[WarLocke]

the internet did not kill this girl, the people putting the information out there and encouraging her did.

No, she killed herself.

Information doesn't make anyone do anything. Simply knowing or learning of ways to end your life is not dangerous in itself; it's when the person exposed to this information is already suicidal that this happens.

The viewpoint expressed in the linked article is akin to "Let's make chemistry texts illegal, because someone could learn how to build a bomb!"

If a person wants to end their life, they'll find a way to do so, internet or not. And, whether you like it or not, it is their choice. Saying that she wasn't in control of her actions because she was depressed is just so much bullsh*t.

(And yes, I realise that there are probably instances in which a person can't control their their actions, but it d*mn well isn't just "depression".)

- WL

[Occhidiangela]

Was those who encouraged a person on the verge of self destruction. The egging on of someone whose blatant self immolation was being played out not just in text, where you can have someone on, but with real time video accompaniment.

"Jump, you chicken bastard, jump!" Is that the sort of encouragement we should yell to someone on a windowledge of a 15 story building?

Arguing that 'we' should encourage suicide as a form of cleaning up the gene pool strikes me as an exercise in nihilism, or rampant cynicism fueled by negative energy.

[Baylan]

Hail WarBlade!

Your right.

Of course at one point I was near suicidal. I think I would've done it if I had egging on from people... But it really is the same. If someone wants to end their life, and I mean very truly that they want it to end; they will do it somehow, some way. I've had some bad experiences, in 7th grade there was a kid that I didn't even know that committed suicide. Put a bullet through his head. Even though I didn't know him, I still mourned with the rest of the school. Something like that isn't supposed to happen so close to you... its not supposed to happen to someone that you might know. Its just not supposed to, but it does.

*shrug* Went off a bit on a rambling there.

Baylan

[WarLocke]

Tangent: This must be the third time this week I've been addressed as WarBlade. This isn't a jab, Baylan; I just find it kind of surreal. :blink:

Getting back on topic, I think the real tragedy in this case is that the girl's family/friends didn't notice her state of mind earlier and instead have decided to blame anyone other than the "victim". It seems as if the American public is becoming more and more "stupidified" (I'm going to copyright that, I think) and divorced from the concept of personal responsibility.

(Insert mad rant about subliminal television messages and satellite-beam hypnotism here)

I also just read the article about the kid who overdosed. It's basically the same story, although it's hard to tell if he wanted to suicide or was just plain stupid (Insert "cleaning up the gene pool" comment here). What I found ridiculous, though, was that the family expected the other chatters (who were most likely spread across the globe) to somehow intervene. Uh, wha? Yeah, lady, just let me saddle up on my FTL moped...

- WL

[TaMeOlta]

Excerpt from the deceased's father: “there’s no way she would have known how to kill herself if they hadn’t told her how.”


:blink:

What ?? If he took away her internet privileges , I'm sure she would have gotten hold of the "Suicide for Dummies" book . How/why do people think it's OK to create these sites anyways ? :blink:

[pakman]

They're reason's for creating these sites is something to the effect of, "because I can, this is a free country, and there freedom of the press."

On another note: Anyone every read, The Complete Idiot's Guide For Dummies?

[Baylan]

Hail WarBlade err... WarLocke!

Sorry about that, your names are just so similar! Even down to the capitalization of the first letter after War! :-p

I agree with you on the real tragedy though. Its unfortunate, I know a few kids that I'm pretty good friends with that are in bad situations. One of them is now at camp for the summer, her parents thinking that sending her away so that her friends can deal with the problem with counselers will help fix it. I've said it many times, and I will continue to say it. Stupidity is the most dangerous disease to have ever struck humanity, and it continues to grow because not enough people recognize the cure: knowledge. Too many people are playing the blame game. They try to get rid of the guilt on their shoulders so they try and pass it off. What happens is you get a generation of people who only wish to get through life with as much money-grubbing, as much of a "peaceful" life, and they live in unhappiness because they still feel somewhat guilty for getting away with all they did. This leads to depression... and suicide.

Its a disgusting cycle, and I can only hope it will end. I do my best, I try to influence my family and my friends but it doesn't always work. Occasionally mistakes are made, and people refuse to listen to the truth. The truth that they don't want to take the blame for their actions, their mistakes, their problems. *sigh*

Either way, another rant today. I did try to tie it in a little bit with what is being discussed but I have the tendency to get off in my own world, especially when I'm ranting.

Baylan

[LemmingofGlory]

Why why why why why!? Graaah!! Bloody forum ate my post!

(/seethe)

Quick recap, then.

After reading this and seeing a blurb about an "obesity tax" on Tech Live!, I'm convinced we (USA) now need a Stupidity Tax.

Politicians would never go for it -- they'd end up paying the bulk. ;)

Re: Article
Says the father, “there’s no way she would have known how to kill herself if they hadn’t told her how.” Malarkey. Furthermore, that's not the problem. Forrest Gump could probably come up with plenty of HowTo's if he wanted to. Papa's perceived "innocence" or "ignorance" of his daughter's mental state is irrelevant. The problem is the depression itself.

Learning disability aside (it's too vague), I'm willing to bet that gal was depressed before Granny bit the big one. And, you may disagree, but I see quite a bit of distance in her marriage. If they were close, she would've gone to ol' Roger for help; comfort. Something. Instead, she decided to dangle from the rafters for him. She lashed out selfishly. Not indicative of a close, loving relationship. Where the rift between them came from is up to speculation -- prior existing depression, unresolved marital frustrations neither knows how to work through, etc. -- but I still very much think a rift existed. And that no doubt contributed to her depression, which may have been magnified by Granny kicking the bucket.

Speaking of being retarded:

Meanwhile, the sites’ fans have an almost evangelical fervor. “It’s about the validation, the unconditional acceptance,” says Maxine, an Ottawa resident whose son visited one of the sites almost daily until committing suicide nearly two years ago. Maxine, now a visitor herself, says she’s glad her son was able to find a community to help him through his pain.

Oh, the 'community' helped him did it? Earth to Maxine: He killed himself anyway! Why the hell would he still want to kill himself if he truly got help?

Final thoughts? That depressed folk looked for such sites shows they're suicidal anyway. Even if such sites didn't exist, people still need human interaction to get the depression monkey off their back. If they never find it, are they really less likely to off themselves?

-Lem

[Nystul]

Personal responsibility cuts both ways. The internet is just a tool for exchanging information, and can be used for good or for ill. It cannot be held responsible. But someone who eggs another person into committing a suicide is partially responsible. Just as the person who committed suicide made their own choice, these 'accomplices' had three options, try to help, back away from the situation, or try to push the suicide into happening. What they did in some of these cases is not much different from pushing someone off the ledge or handing a suicidal person a loaded gun, which are both criminal acts in many locations.

Anyone remember the movie "Pump up the Volume" with Christian Slater? Pretty hokie movie, but it presented a case somewhat similar to these.

[Archon_Wing]

I think I know what it feels to be suicidal. You're not gonna think of rational things. And certain things can tip the iceberg.

However, I do not think the Internet can be fully to blame. They would have found another way to do it. Instead of blaming it on the internet, how about reaching out to the people in need?It's a bit more productive than to destory everything because it might be a bad influence.

If a person on the internet tried to coax another into suicide and the other person tried, I'd seriously slap the hell out of them both. One for being a total jackass, the other for putting too much stock in annymous people on the interne.

[Axispoint]

I think I know what it feels to be suicidal.

Hey, I was a bit curious about something, Archon. I'm not flaming, ok? :-) Anyway, I was just curious why you put "I think". If you don't wish to answer here, that's quite ok.

As for the subject of this thread, I find it strange that people actually have to reference online on how to kill themselves. Are they just drones that need to actually read how to kill themselves because they're too stupid to think something up on their own? You'd think they had never seen the half a dozen movie and tv shows where people kill themselves (the movie "Bringing Out the Dead" is a prime example...they actually in the movie tell a guy how to kill himself the "right way" and somewhat show him how...they don't cut him, but they did that to try and scare him, which worked 'cos the guy got freaked and ran off, lol).

And also, honestly if that girl was serious about killing herself, she would have found other ways to get info on killing herself if that site hadn't existed.

As Sayeth By Lemming:
If they were close, she would've gone to ol' Roger for help; comfort.

I don't exactly agree with that (in some ways I do). There are people who will keep things like that from other people for whatever reason (could be just someone who normally keeps things inside or they just want to spare people the details and pain of what they're going through) and the only way people ever know there's a serious problem is after that person is dead. That could be the case here, it may not, we'll never know. And sometimes you can not go to a loved one about things like suicidal thoughts because the person can't handle it (this is actually my case with my guy...I can't tell him that kind of stuff and I can understand why...would you really want to hear someone you love day in and day out be so depressed that they talk about killing themselves? That is a sure way to learn to keep that kind of thing to yourself, though I doubt that was her case, but again, you never know.).

Also, I do agree that her actions were selfish. Something I recommend to any suicidal person (well, kind of), though it is disturbing, is to think through what happens after you die. Imagining a parent or a lover finding your dead body and their reaction. It really is disturbing to think about that.

Moving back above to something while I remember it now: generally depression is not very easy to hide. So I'm curious if this girl was depressed if anyone, like Roger, her family, or even friends noticed a change in her that indicated depression.

*edited to add something: I think someone who is good at hiding emotions could pull off hiding depression. Don't quote me, though :)