Muscle Mages

[Sr.Juez]

Hi, Lurkers:

Finally, my warrior became almost invincible, and it was easy and boring playing with him in hell. I wanted a real CHALLENGE, so I started a new character, a variant, a Muscle Mage. So far I've survived until clvl 15.

This really has a different pace: one must fight slower, more cautiously, equip wisely, use good tactics, take the maximum possible profit of the dungeon layout and choke points... and use your very best fighting skills.

Since I started, I have had some minor questions about the rules (which I found at realmsbeyond), but when in doubt, I had interpretated them restrictively, until now. Stronger enemies are coming, and I'll need the very best of my MM and equipment to survive.

This is mostly a problem with translation, because english is not my natural language, and then the rules sound me some... ambiguous?. Ok, the questions:

1) Eeermmm... first, the most evident one: eeehh.... uuuh... :unsure: Any experienced MM in the audience?. Because this is the appropiate forum to look for tips, advice, setups and strategies from one of them... or ain't it?

2) It looks that prefixed jewlery must ALWAYS have suffixes that raise your strenght or HPs (or both...), but what about plain suffixed jewlery?. May I use a ring of plain Dex or of Harmony?

3) I can read any scrolls at any time... Does this includes Mana Shield?

4) I really don't understand those rules about armor. So you must use armor with strenght requirement. Ok. And it must be 3*clvl or 90, the lower. Ok. But then: "Until a legal suit of armor is found, the aspiring muscle mage may use any non-magical armor. During this time, they must put all level-up points into strength...". Eh? :blink:

So, I'm supposed to equip only 3*clvl (45) strenght requirement armor now (or I'm not?), and then, if I would be using armor with less strenght requirement than required, should I throw it when I would reach this clvl?.

This strenght requirement for the armor is so high that I haven't found a valid armor yet... I lvl up faster than the heavier armors can pop out, so I've played my MM CHEST-NAKED until now. Could anyone help me interpretating this rule and tell me if there is any valid armor I could use now?. Or do MMs never dress in black? (and I mean: when I was strong enough to use chain mails I (think) wasn't allowed to use them!).

Well, lurkers, see if you can help. Sorry for being so touchy with these MM rules, but hey, I wanted to play exactly as the guys who invented this did, with exactly the same challenges they faced. I wanted to be a REAL MM.

Thanks in advance.

[LemmingofGlory]

1) Eeermmm... first, the most evident one: eeehh.... uuuh...  Any experienced MM in the audience?. Because this is the appropiate forum to look for tips, advice, setups and strategies from one of them... or ain't it?

Sure, it's the right place. I've not played MM extensively, but some Lurkers may have solid advice.

2) It looks that prefixed jewlery must ALWAYS have suffixes that raise your strenght or HPs (or both...), but what about plain suffixed jewlery?. May I use a ring of plain Dex or of Harmony?

When it comes to interpreting variant rules, we usually say to look for the "spirit" of the variant; the overall concept.

The Muscle Mage prides himself on being tough, and his jewelry isn't "for looks." So, I'd say jewelry lacking +All, +Vit, +Str, or +HP is "just for looks" and not something he'd use.

3) I can read any scrolls at any time... Does this includes Mana Shield?

The rules specifically prohibit casting MS until after normal D kill. Even thought it says "any scroll at any time," I would interpret the rule to exclude MS, Phase, Telekinesis, Golem, Stone, and Teleport until after the necessary Diablo kills. This places emphasis on MM's "tough" self-image and de-emphasizes magic, which fits with the rest of the variant.

4) I really don't understand those rules about armor. So you must use armor with strenght requirement. Ok. And it must be 3*clvl or 90, the lower. Ok. But then: "Until a legal suit of armor is found, the aspiring muscle mage may use any non-magical armor. During this time, they must put all level-up points into strength...". Eh?

The quotation refers to just the early part of the Muscle Mage's life, before he finds armor with adequate strength requirement. So, starting out, Muscle Mage can use non-magical Rags, Capes, etc. but must put all level ups into Str. After Muscle Mage finds armor with strength requirement > 3*clvl, he may distribute level-up points as he wishes.

So, I'm supposed to equip only 3*clvl (45) strenght requirement armor now (or I'm not?), and then, if I would be using armor with less strenght requirement than required, should I throw it when I would reach this clvl?

I always thought the Muscle Mage armor rules were a bit bizarre, especially because they can potentially put the MM in the situation you describe (where he'd throw away his armor). But throwing away your armor makes you weaker, so that doesn't make sense. I believe the intent of the rule was to keep your current armor (even if the str req is lower than 3*clvl) until you find a heavier armor. Once you find heavier armor (and you can equip it), throw away your other armor. Continue to upgrade in this fashion until you're wearing Full Plate.

[o: *LEMMING* :o]

[Drasca]

But fear not, MM's are still around. Not the chocolately melt in your mouth kind either. MM's are *extremely slow* levelers. Probably the slowest variant around. There's a lot of temptation to go be a nudist mage instead.

2) It looks that prefixed jewlery must ALWAYS have suffixes that raise your strenght or HPs (or both...), but what about plain suffixed jewlery?. May I use a ring of plain Dex or of Harmony

Point of jewelry affixes is to have melee combat (bow if you really want a challenge) affixes, instead of magic. No drake's ring of sorcery, but if you'd like to go LAW and block attacks with +dex affixes, that should be fine.

3) I can read any scrolls at any time... Does this includes Mana Shield?

Lemming said no, and basically I agree. Going down that path would be temptatingly cheesy and too easy. Now its possible to just use mana shield scroll and avoid using blue pots until the mana shield is gone, but that just reeks of abuse waiting to happen. Soon you might want to up magic (big no no) for additional mana shield health and use rejuvs to replenish the shield. With restrictions, you could walk down the path of temptation. Use mana shield, but no recharging.

About Armor rules
Use the most protective armor around, not mage armor (+mana, +magic stuff). For example, if your awesome chainmail has better AC than your regular platemail, use it. If you're a low ac warrior (muscle mage), then fill up on +dex equipment. Harmony, stability and equilibrium?, make for an intersting combination once you're beefed up on hp and life. Point being: Go be a warrior, whatever kind you'd like, Low AC (blocking), Zen (harmony), Buff (+life, vit or +str), Stonewall (-dfe, deflection/osmosis) not a spell flinging mage or warrior trying to be a mage. Some of the cruelist kinds are axemen, who lop demon heads with ease, while being nearly unstunnable with deflection, harmony or high life. I nicknamed mine the "axe murderer" when he came across a strange small axe of haste.

A MM a warrior in the truest sense. Melee combat & equipment is your offense and defense, spells are just for support and nothing else. Stone curse makes for nice Garden Statues to vandalize with your axe, sword or cudgel. Not to explode with fireballs or burn with firewalls. Defensive firewalls were ok in my book, but that's a slightly more advanced tactic. Maxing mana pool and MS is fairly cheese, as its more proper to be full of health than vigor of mystical spirit. You're a muscle mage, think muscle beach, weightlifting, and getting buff. Not low-impact yoga for spiritual achievement. That's for the other guys. Go be a beefcake. You're a muscle mage, be proud of your buff self.

[Rhydderch Hael]

I don't know anything about the strict variant rules. My muscle mage, if the variant purists would permit the label, is built around a playing style rather than a ruled variant. Practicality guides his wardrobe.

Things you need to know about Jewels: those Rings and Amulets will provide only one of three things through their prefixes: Resistances; ToHit%; or raw Mana. As a melee-oriented mage, that Mana boost is at the bottom of your list-- you've got plenty that comes by nature. Resistances are much more important in a defensive nature, but the ToHit% boosters will deliver that offensive crunch you might need-- especially if you can't find a half-decent weapon.

The name of the game is trying to get as much melee damage as possible-- accomplished by two means: pumped Strength and/or a really high damage weapon. Strength boosts are obvious: "of Giants" and "of Titans" represent the mother lode of magical boosters you'll be seeking. Forget Dexterity boosters to gain your ToHit%-- you'll never get enough to boost both Strength and Dexterity to feed your needs. Focus of Strength, and get your ToHit through equipment rather than a Dex boost.

ToHit% can be claimed on two fronts: a "King's" weapon or the like, and "Gold" jewelry. While the "Gold Ring of Titans" really does look tempting for a Muscle Mage, you have to consider a choice: choose "Gold" prefixes on your Rings and Amulet (at the cost of Resistances) or go for Resist-boosting jewels and opt for a King's weapon to make up your ToHit% needs.

It comes up to two equipment philosophies, best understood as to how they revolve around the mage's weapon.

Route#1: you can go for a sword or axe with pure damaging power (Merciless Sword of...) and attain your ToHit% boosts through your jewelry. This comes at the cost of either lower Resistances or Armor Class, as it is through your armor that these two forms of defense must be met. This route is the more offensive-minded of the options, as you can deliver marginally greater damage than what you get from a weapon that combines both Damage and ToHit%. Your ToHit% may be even better, too, since the ToHit% boosts of the rings/amulets contribute more numbers than a single King's weapon will bring.

Route#2: you can get a really nice King's Sword of Absolute Butt-Kickin' Destruction (model may vary from dealership to dealership) and hope that the weapon's ToHit% boost will be enough. Then, you can boost up your Resistances through jewlery while keeping your armor pieces focused on generating high AC numbers. The more defensible, survivable of the two options-- though your chance to hit a target may be lacking at the hardest levels.

[Sr.Juez]

Hi Lurkers:

First of all, thanks for all that good replies and advice about setups.
Eventually, I've decided that I'll equip the heaviest armor that (yet bought yet found) comes into my path... if I have the required strenght. If not, I'll keep it in my inventary, and will equip it ASAP, even if its affixes are worse than the previous one. I believe this is the closest to the ideals of the muscle mages; everybody must see that I can wear the heaviest armors, that I'm the strongest. This is a question MM proudness.

I've decided also that I won't use the Mana Shield (at least until after my first dot). I wasn't very convinced, anyway. I believe that muscle mages are allowed to use it after their first dot because at some point Charles Warren and Gyrefalcon noticed that the MM's HPs were not enough to deal with the strongest monsters in Hell. Charis states in his LAW guide that about 400 to 500 HPs are needed in Hell/Hell. Well... another thing that I'd like to ask these guys if I could.

Now that I'm talking about spells, Stone Curse can be casted on monsters after completing the game in Nigthmare, but Stone Cursing and then Statue Bashing doesn't sounds much Muscle Mage. If abused, MMs would only need resistances as prefixes in their jewlery, and they'd be MMs still. No, definitely, this doesn't sounds very strategic also. Maybe this was intended to reduce mobs of monsters (or against those who tend to evade?). Heck, at times I think these rules could use an... addenum?, clarifications?, tips for the novice MM?, MM faq?, actualization?, patch?.

There are other things strange/obscure also: two of the quests involve the use of an item of Corruption, but at least for me, these are scarce. I think I've only found two of these in all my Diablo career. Wouldn't it have been better something like...?: "Go waste all your mana casting spells against a dlvl 1 wall, and then proceed with these quests not using your mana at any time". Or did they wanted the increased difficulty of wasting a suffix (and maybe a prefix) with the item of Corruption?. Also, about those armor rules at the begining of a MM career I think it would be useful some clarifying advice like: "You start like the weakest Diablo char. Focuse on strength or soon you won't even be able to equip a studded leather armor or small shield. You won't do much damage with 15 strength, also".

Well, that's enough about the rules for now. Your posts made me think about the strategic side of playing as a MM. I had these ideas:

1. An +AC prefix in my armor. There is this nice article from Charis at realmsbeyond: "An analysis of Harmony and Fast Block". It shows that a low AC mage against the fastest attackers in Hell is dead meat. Even with Harmony (and I can't go Zen, because we MM will only use jewlery suffixes for +all +str +HPs +vit), the Sorc recovers in 0.25, and then... what to do?. My fastest options would be running or casting a spell, but both take an additional +0.40 sec. 0.65 sec in total, and dogs (for example...) swing at only 0.60 sec. Many monsters in Diablo can swing at this speed (or faster), so I guess I'll have to go High/Medium AC at least. A medium AC setup would also free a jewlery prefix/es for +To Hit, when the helm/shield (one or both...) would be used for a resistance prefix. So then, if you were to use resistances in helm/shield... which one would you chose for this if you were me?.

2. Do I use a Fast Block shield or not?. I'm currently equipping one, and its been quite useful. I had the idea of using one in the future, but now, I'm unsure of its usefulness...

3. Fast swing sword/club?. I don't think so. They are useful for the warrior against those mages and the evading succubi, but I'll never swing as fast as a warrior. I thought I'd need something like a King's sword for the extra +To Hit, but after Rhydderch Hael's post I thought I'd pay more attention in the damage, and use golds for extra hit. But will I be able to hit the tougest enemies in Hell/Hell using only golds?. I think I'll need some extra help from the weapon/jewlery, won't it?. Which is the minimum extra +To Hit that I'd need from my weapon?. And if I use the jewlery for this, will I have enough even from 3 heavens?.

4. Wich would be more useful as suffixes in my jewlery, dex or str?. Or will you choose another?.

5. May I bring my MM stats here and ask for an evaluation?. I think I'm being too much timid and that I could go deeper through the dungeons. I'd like to know where is the deeper you would go if you were in my case. I don't have many items right now, so if you wish to eval me, you won't have many setups to think about... ;)

Thanks in advance.

[LemmingofGlory]

Now that I'm talking about spells, Stone Curse can be casted on monsters after completing the game in Nigthmare, but Stone Cursing and then Statue Bashing doesn't sounds much Muscle Mage. If abused, MMs would only need resistances as prefixes in their jewlery, and they'd be MMs still. No, definitely, this doesn't sounds very strategic also. Maybe this was intended to reduce mobs of monsters (or against those who tend to evade?). Heck, at times I think these rules could use an... addenum?, clarifications?, tips for the novice MM?, MM faq?, actualization?, patch?.

Unless the rules explicitly state how you should use Stone Curse, it's up to the MM how he wants to use it. Personally, I agree rampant Statue Bashing isn't the best way to show off your muscles. But I'd say it does have uses in, as you suggested, Mob Control and vs Shooters. Anything that runs away from you -- anything too chicken to fight like a man! -- I'd freely Stone Curse.

There are other things strange/obscure also: two of the quests involve the use of an item of Corruption, but at least for me, these are scarce. I think I've only found two of these in all my Diablo career.

"Corruption" items are a throwback to the BNM. And the reason they're fairly rare is because most people don't play and re-play levels where you find "Corruption."

Wouldn't it have been better something like...?: "Go waste all your mana casting spells against a dlvl 1 wall, and then proceed with these quests not using your mana at any time"

Again, it's not about what's "virtually the same thing." It's an homage to the BNM. As such, it's all about the item.

Also, about those armor rules at the begining of a MM career I think it would be useful some clarifying advice like: "You start like the weakest Diablo char. Focuse on strength or soon you won't even be able to equip a studded leather armor or small shield. You won't do much damage with 15 strength, also".

It's not about convincing you to pump strength, it's about forcing you to do so. Were the rule optional, many MM's would get just enough strength to equip useful items before moving on to dex. And dex isn't part of the theme.

2. Do I use a Fast Block shield or not?. I'm currently equipping one, and its been quite useful. I had the idea of using one in the future, but now, I'm unsure of its usefulness...

Yes. I'd recommend Stormshield.

3. Fast swing sword/club?. I don't think so. They are useful for the warrior against those mages and the evading succubi, but I'll never swing as fast as a warrior.

Right. This is why your options are, in some ways, more flexible than Warrior's. King/Vampire sword might be just ducky since Haste won't stunlock mages anyway.

4. Wich would be more useful as suffixes in my jewlery, dex or str?. Or will you choose another?.

+All. Magic gives your more HPs (via MS). Strength increases your damage (always low for a Sorc). Dex helps blocking.

I don't think you can use plain +Dex jewelry anyway.

5. May I bring my MM stats here and ask for an evaluation?

Sure. Evals are an age-old tradition. :)

[o: *LEMMING* :o]

[Sr.Juez]

Heck, I guess that eval will have to wait.

Whithout a warning, my secondary Hard Disk (where I had the Diablo game and ALL my chars) decided to break down. I still can't believe it. Till now, Hard Disks were something "indestructible" for me. I'm still trying to recover from the commotion, here.

It's a pity, that Gold Bastard Sword of Slaying was working wonders against dlvl 9's monsters.

I feel also sorry for all that people who could be following this thread and learning about Muscle Mages with my experience and thoughts.

Well, sorry again and thanks to all of you who helped me with this MM thread. Maybe someday, in the future...