Just finished Dune Messiah

[TaiDaishar]

Just finished the second book in the Dune saga "Dune Messiah" and let me tell you I have NEVER read a better book than that one!

I'm more of a fantasy fan than a Sci-Fi fan but this book was simply incredible despite it's short length, I have read many a-book during my short 17 years old life but this one tops all of them.

[[DecoY]]

wait till you read the third book :)

and what about the films!!! Dman that' stoneburner scene is awsome!!! :) :D

[TaiDaishar]

The films are pale-dead comparsion to the books and I'm now reading the third book.

[Taem]

If you can get past the couple agonizingly slow parts, then that is truly a great series. The original Dune movie with Patrick Stewart left out soooo much information from the books - and changed a wee bit. I heard the Sci-Fi series was much better, but have yet to see it.

[Drasca]

Love the books, criticize the movies.

I thought the mini-series was MUCH worse. If you can cheaply rent, or borrow a copy, judge for yourself. The 1984 Dune did many things right, and was approved by Frank Herbert himself. Among them, atmosphere, strong character work, and the both the despair of situation and strength of character, as well as the sensibility of Paul Muad'ib as he comes into his own. I admit the 1984 Dune did not cover all of the 500+ page original (with one typo in my aniversery edition hardcover... ONE). That's impossible to perfectly transmit from book to movie medium. However tersely (how central is the love story? as much as I'd like to see them get it on, that's for a porn rip-off). I think the '84 version (4 versions, cuts of the same really) did well to reduce coverage to move plot. In the 84 case, less was more. Even moreso compared to the mini-seiries. Why? Here are a few of my criticisms on the Sci-Fi Mini-series.

1) They used pup tents in open desert, with They ignored desert culture completely. The Scifi channel miniseries destroys that with the flimsy tatters desert clothing.

2) Unecessary addition of Princess Irulene. Actually the Peter Jackson Lord of the Rings did the same with Arwen... she's the addition of a very minor female character in a grab for audience.

3) Slow, unmoved acting. For me, it was watching a dead fish flounder all throughout. It looked like deadwood carrying the motions, but with no spark. Maybe I'm spoiled. It didn't feel like Dune. The "little" details, like costume central to the character and geopgraphic regional culture, everything that makes the atmosphere makes or breaks the movie for me.

Just a few remarks. The central complaint of the 84 version was "not enough, especially the love relationship." My complaint of the mini-series is too much of the unnecessary, so much that it ruins the atmosphere and what makes the shifting desert culture Dune.

[Yrrek]

Folks, we have another believer! That series, including the preludes, is my favorite series of all time! I am currently on my third run through and am on Children of Dune. It is taking me much longer than normal though, due to the fact that I barely have time for homework, much less reading for pleasure. :( Glad you are enjoying!

[TaiDaishar]

Folks, we have another believer! That series, including the preludes, is my favorite series of all time! I am currently on my third run through and am on Children of Dune.  It is taking me much longer than normal though, due to the fact that I barely have time for homework, much less reading for pleasure.  :( Glad you are enjoying!

I have seen the light, and it's sort of pinkish...

[WarLocke]

I've only read Dune and Children of Dune, but if they're indicative of the other books' quality, it's a very nice series indeed.

Another series that I stumbled upon recently that does an excellent job of fleshing out a universe is by a Joan Slonczewski. 'A Door Into Ocean', 'Daughter of Elysium', and 'The Children Star' take place on several well-developed planets, the most notable of which is probably Shora, an ocean-bound planet on which Sharers live on giant rafts, with a unique and (mostly) pacifistic philosophy.

Or you could try James P. Hogan's Giants Trilogy (Inherit the Stars, Gentle Giants of Ganymede, Giants' Star) for another excellent example of universe-building (along with an interesting view on how humanity 'evolved', where the moon really came from, and the origin of the asteroid belt, among other things).

[Dozer]

Or you could try James P. Hogan's Giants Trilogy (Inherit the Stars, Gentle Giants of Ganymede, Giants' Star)

There's actually a fourth book, called Endoverse. ;)

[WarLocke]

Ah, you caught me. I had forgotten about Entoverse (dangit, now I'm gonna have to dig through my books to find out which spelling is correct).

It's a good read in and of itself (heck, I've yet to come across a bad Hogan book), but it doesn't really 'feel' like it fits into the series - the first three books are intricately interwoven, and at the end you get this feeling of completion (or at least I did). Entoverse felt like more of a 'side story' - although a very good one.

[Quark]

This may come as a surprise to you, but I consider Dune: Messiah, Children of Dune, and God Emperor of Dune to be the worst part of the series. While certainly not bad books (if they were, I wouldn't have continued to read everything else), I consider the rest of the series a masterpiece.

The last two of Frank Herbert's books are my favorite. I loved Chapterhouse: Dune, and hope some day his son finishes that storyline (as has been mentioned), but I have a staggering feeling I know the basis for what's going to happen (read Dune: Butlerian Jihad if you've read all those books and are confused).

I didn't know until just now that his son is doing a complete trilogy for the Butlerian Jihad time, I'll have to pick up that new book (The Machine Crusade) ASAP. I heard they were working on a Dune 7 to finish the entire story, but ready all the other books I assume the Butlerian Jihad must be finished first.

But overall, I'd say that the middle part of the main series is the worst part. Take that for what it is, considering I think Dune is the best series ever.

[TaiDaishar]

I guess some will think like that, after all Dune Messiah had nearly any real action going on and Children of Dune seems to be like that as well.

Dune Messiah with all his philosophies and the bitter taste at the end simply blew my mind, amazing, I never thought someone could make a book that generally not much goes in it yet not repeat himself even once.

[Freepaperclips]

Do yourself a favor and don't read Brian Herbert's continuation of the series. The characters are all very one-sided and many characters from Dune are made into blundering fools. If you have read any of Brian's (the son) other books then you'll know what I mean. However, if you liked the vast and bitter-dry world of the originals, then you should try Steven Erikson's Garden's of the Moon. They portray a world as vast and complex as that of Dune.

[Virgil Tibbs]

I'm also very fond of the Dune series. God Emperor of Dune was a little tedious at parts, but still worth reading. I haven't read the new books yet, and I'm a little hesitant to do so because I recall the co-author, Kevin J. Anderson, from back in my days as an uber star wars nerd. His Jedi Academy series was rather mediocre, though not quite as bad as the latest story line which finally caused me to give up on the whole "Extended Universe" thing a while back.

Can't comment on the movie or mini-series since I have not seen them.

Tibbs

[Quark]

One-sided? Blundering Fools? I'd like to find out how you came to those interpretations, because I didn't see that anywhere.

[Saxywoo]

Ah..... one of my beloved topics.... the Dune Books....

I've tried to leave out the spoilers, so I'm working on a few assumptions here, being that you, the reader, have read cmpletely through at least Dune and Messiah. If you haven't read at least that far, and don't want to risk spoiling the future of book for you.

First, when I say "original books," I mean Dune, Messiah, Children, God Emperor, Heretics and Chapterhouse.
Second, when I say "house books," I mean Atreades, Harkonnen and Corrino.
Third, when I say "new books," I mean Butlerian Jihad, and the new one (out last month) Machine Crusade.

I got my wife into the Dune series, and she's much more the horror, suspence books, but not really any Sci-Fi books. Once I had her hooked, she's been eagerly awaiting each book's release.

I loved the original books. All of them, though I've had conversations with people about God Emperor, since I've found that not many people think that it is on par with the books before it. I think that this is primarily due to the fact that there is 3500 years of history that the book is trying to cover. Me, being someone that still loves Greek Mythology and learning about ancient cultures and civilizations, I didn't have a problem with the book. Just in case you're wondering about the time line between the books, here it is:

Dune - the year 10,191
Messiah - probably about 10,210
Children - probably about 10,230
God Emperor - 13,730 (give or take 20 years)
Heretics - 15,230 (again, give or take 20 years)
Chapterhouse - about 5-10 years after Heretics ends.

I saw that people thought that the movies were great. The problem that I have with all 3 movies (the original movie and the two from the Sci-Fi Channel - hereafter referred to as SFC) is that you need to read the books, otherwise the movies don't make very much sense. If you take the original movie and the first of the SFC series, it does explain a lot between the two, but there are still holes left in the story. The original cut of the original movie (with Kyle McLachlan - who also played Trey on Sex and the City), was 6 hours long, and it explained EVERYTHING. People complained that the movie was too long. So they cut it down to 4 hours, which still did a good job of explaining the story, but people still complained. So they hacked it down to 2 hours, and then people left the theatre saying "what?" But then again, maybe that is my biased-ness coming out (I think that the book is always better then the movie).

Okay, back to the books....


I did enjoy the house books, but I thought that there was a rather large gap left between the end of House Corrino and the beginning of Dune. Personally, I think tha there should have been a House of Ix book. But from those three books, you come to understand where the history of the hatred for the Tulaxu comes from, but it never explains how Ix once again became a superpower in the Landsriad. But you do get to see just how truely sneaky Emperor Shadam IV really is, and the ties that really bond the sisters of the Bene Geserit (sp?). In this series, you also get to know the histories of Gurney Hallek and Duncan Idaho.

I am only about halfway though Butlerian Jihad, thanks to my youngest daughter getter hands on my copy of the book and hiding it from me, and then my lack of spare time to sit down and read. Some of the things that I see in there are rather shocking, considering how the families start out, and who their alliances are with, and who they are decended from. You also learn why the Barron Vladimir Harkonnen hates the Sisterhood so much, and particularly Reverend Mother Moheim. And why Jessica's relationship with her teacher, Reverend Mother Mheim is as stressed as it is.


Undertones and Themes.....

I did notice that it seemed like Children was sort of critical of religion, and the abuses of power that can come from it. Take the Catholic Church (by the way, I'm Catholic myself) and history. The abuse of power that the Church is guilty of throughout history is rather amazing. But even later, you can pick up further religious undertones, but also political undertones too. I'm not entirely sure when the series was written, but there seems to be a bit of anamosity that Herbert had towards the Solviets, since Vladamir is more of a Russian name in recent history than anywhere else - back in the days when Communism was going strong. Possibly the use of the house color of Blue is for Herbert's deniability that he's making reference to the Solviet Union at that point in time. Personally, I think that it would have been a dead giveaway if he used red for the house color. However, I am interested in finding out what others that have read the books have thought about the various undertones of the books, particularly the ones about religion, and my theory that House Harkonnen are supposed to be decended from USSR. Another thing that I find interesting is that there is nothing that is mentioned about any Chinese or Japanese descent. But what what was the military strength of China at the time? I know that due to the surrender of Japan in World War II that the Japanese weren't allowed to have any greater military strength than to defend itself, but nothing on a scale that it had when the war was going on. What are your thoughts? I'm greatly interested in hearing them. Am I full of it? Am I reading too much into the books? Should I seek professional help? Sadly to say, with Frank Herbert being gone, we may never know. But I think that this would lead to many interesting conversations in the future, if you folks are game for it.



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If you have not read through the original books entirely, do not read further, since I do have a spoiler here.


********************************* WARNING *********************************



I do think that it's interesting that the series only has one main character that pseudo-survives through the millenia that the series covers, and that it's not House Harkonen or Corino. And not even originally not even House Atreades. Who other than Duncan Idaho, the divout soldier who is killed a third of the way through the first book. Granted, he's changed quite a bit through the series, but he's still there, the only problem is that he's tied to everone in the known universe in the end.

But I've gone on long enough..... for now....

[Taem]

The original cut of the original movie (with Kyle McLachlan - who also played Trey on Sex and the City), was 6 hours long, and it explained EVERYTHING

Saxywoo,

How do you know this? I've looked all over and recently found an extended version of Dune which only added 20 minutes of footage. Do they sell the 4-hour, or better yet, the 6-hour movie? Do you know where to get it? I'd LOVE to see that :D .

[vor_lord]

One-sided?  Blundering Fools?  I'd like to find out how you came to those interpretations, because I didn't see that anywhere.

I have to say I completely agree with his characterization of 'blundering fools' and 'one-sided' (by which I assume he means flat). I really enjoyed the original Dune series (although I gave up partway through Heretics and God Emperor was not my favorite).

But I can't stomach Brian's work. I tried for weeks to get through the second one, and finally just tossed it in the trash in disgust, even though I was only about 20 pages from the end.

The characterization is _awful_. The story lines are unbelievable--every time something happened I had to shake my head in complete disbelief. Even Robert Jordan does a better job with characters, and his are pretty bad.

More power to you if you like them though--gives you a lot of options of stuff that you'll enjoy, because pretty much everything out there is better :)

[Taem]

Saxywoo,

How do you know this?  I've looked all over and recently found an extended version of Dune which only added 20 minutes of footage.  Do they sell the 4-hour, or better yet, the 6-hour movie?  Do you know where to get it?  I'd LOVE to see that :D .

I guess there is a 189 minute version (3 hours 9 minutes):

http://www.arrakis.co.uk/extended.html

But that was all I could find.

I also heard they originally planned 6-hours of footage, but only shot 'x' amount of footage: x = extended version of Dune. Still on other web-sites, they have gathered clips of "additional" footage that is also not in the "extended-version", leading me to believe that there is even MORE footage out there... somewhere. But atlas, if it is out there, its not on the internet!

[cheezz]

Although I have never heard of a 6 hour version, I have seen the 4 hour version several times. Disney channel used to play it about once a year. They called it the director's cut. I don't think they have shown it in a few years, but I'm guessing they still own the rights to it, since you can't seem to buy or rent it anywhere. You'll just have to spam Michael Eisner for a copy I guess.