Radeon or GeForce

[LavCat]

My old GeForce died last night (during Lister). I am looking for recommendations for a replacement. This computer (the one I am writing on) has a Radeon 8500, and I am pleased with it. ATI does not support NT, however, and the other machine is NT -- but I had planned to convert to Windows 2000 sometime anyhow.

My main (technical) concerns are good 2D image quality, and performance (what did you expect?) in DII. I write OpenGL programs for my own amusement but I do not currently run any real 3D games or applications. Should I consider Matrox as well as Radeon and GeForce?

Thanks for any help. By the way, I lived.

[LiquidDamage]

One of my friends came across some research that claimed that Geforce 4s have a very high probability of simply burning out after 6 months of regular use. I have 4 dead Geforce 4 ti 4200 cards sitting in my living room to support this theory.

I bought a Radeon 9600 this time. So far, it performs fairly equivalently, though most games out now are written specifically for the Geforce chipset, and Radeons will have some issues (like no shiny water in NWN and such). It hasn't burned out yet, and I've had it for about 6 months, I think.

Also, smartyman John Carmack said the Radeon 9700 was the best card, hardware wise, on the market when it came out.

I have not tried playing D2 on it yet, and probably won't until 1.10 is out of beta in 2007.

[Drasca]

I do not use my Gfx card on a heavy regular basis, but when I do, it tends to overheat. This is not a good thing. I used several alternative cooling methods to treat this. That is not fun.

Geforce is very good, but excess heat is just not good.

[DeeBye]

Unless you are willing to spend $400+ for a new top-of-the-line card, it doesn't really matter which one you get. Browse around a few tech review sites, and you'll see that both ATI and NVidea make quality cards. It's all personal opinion. It's sorta like AMD vs. Intel.

Base your final decision on price and warrantee.

[Zarathustra]

Just chiming in on the G4 Ti4200 card. The fan went out on mine after about 10 months. The card overheated, sunk into the ninth level of hell, and brought the AGP slot kicking and screaming along for the ride.

I switched to an ATI Radeon 9700Pro. Very happy with it.

[LavCat]

Thanks everyone. After spending a few hours reading reviews, I think I will try to wait and get a Radeon 9600XT. If I can find a deeply discounted 9700 Pro, that would also be a possible choice. The 9600XT has been announced, but it is not shipping yet.

But I'm still open to further suggestions.

[Zath]

Radeon cards generally run at a lower temperature than GeForce cards, and their "Ultimate" versions are actually designed with passive cooling. This can be a good choice if you want to build a silent computer or just don't want to rely on mortal fan bearings. Purchasing a card from a good manufacturer would also work of course. You should expect any decent video card to have protection against an eventual fan failure, and the best ones will have thermal sensors too. Thermal sensors, by the way, are integrated into the new Radeon XTs I heard, and future Catalyst drivers are supposed to take advantage of them with automatic throttle control (i.e. overclock when cool, software rendering when hot). New hardware like this isn't going to come cheap of course. If budget is any concern to you, I would stick with a Radeon 9600 Pro, either from a good manufacturer with proper fail safes, or go with the Ultimate version at a small premium.

Something to keep in mind with D2 is that it was designed to work with Glide, so an old Vodoo card will actually outperform any Radeon or GeForce you can purchase today. Before you persue a video card upgrade, consider switching the game to DirectDraw mode instead of Direct3D. This should improve your D2 performance significantly without any drawback. All that lag around Diablo's pentagram, A2 Tyrael, or A3 rivers will be gone in a snap. You can even survive Shenk's fireworks if you have enough system RAM. There's also the option of using Foxbat's D2 Accelerator to reduce some graphical effects and help slower systems cope with the game.

[NiteFox]

Here's hoping that 1.10 will include some decent D3D support <_<

Not. Bloody. Likely. But one can dream.

[LavCat]

Yes, the 9600XT and the 9800XT have overclocking based on temperature, but the reviews I read did not find the feature that exciting. I'm not so much looking for an upgrade at this time as an improved replacement. If the GeForce had not died I would have held out for at least another cycle.

I run DII in 2D all the time. I think it looks better than 3D, and why do people want the screen to go green when they are poisoned? On this computer (dual PIII 1.4, with the Radeon 8500) I get typically 60 fps, though it sometimes goes down to 4. Shenk is always a problem but this machine has 4 gig of memory. I'm not sure why more RAM would matter too much to DII? The other machine (with the old GeForce) gives/gave a maximum of about 40 fps, but it was more consistent.

Does anyone else recall that Blizzard *promised* OpenGL support for DII, and then offered it only for the Mac?

[Nystul]

Purchasing a card from a good manufacturer would also work of course.

I'd vouch for that. If you're going to dump a lot of money on a GeForce card, at least give a little thought to the manufacturer. For an extra ten or twenty bucks buy a decent name and own a more reliable product (and maybe get a slight boost in performance from higher quality video memory etc.).

For what it's worth, I've been running a Gainward GeForce3 Ti200, mildly overclocked, for a year and a half with absolutely no problems. It hasn't fried yet, and it runs NWN and RtCW very well. I can't say I've ever had a moment where I've thought, "A better video card would be nice," yet. Maybe when Doom 3 comes out...

[Xaxor]

Agreed,

Obviously, a warranty is nice, but OEM parts can be bought at a decent discount. I guess you have to weigh the good with the bad. As far as D2 performance goes I sincerely doubt you'd notice a hair's breadth of difference between a card with 64mb and one with 128mb.

Good luck! -Xaxor

[Zath]

The advantage of thermal sensors on the Radeon XTs is not only in the fact that you can automatically overclock it, but that you can underclock it when needed. In fact, I understand that when the temperature of a Radeon XT card goes critical, future Catalyst drivers will be able to shut down hardware acceleration and switch to software rendering to reduce the chance of a dramatic melt down. This of course is a "promised feature" that will be "coming soon", so you may or may not want to wait for it.

[kandrathe]

I just ordered this Radeon 9800 Pro 128MB from NewEgg.com for $301. I'm also adding on a Thermaltake "Blue Orb" GPU cooler for $8. Just be sure you have the Power Supply to support all your stuff. A good 350W or 400W power supply is not all that spendy. I like the Allied ATX400P4 w/ Two Fans for $30.

Also, for any Graphics card, unless your case has a fan (or 2) that blows air over your PCI/AGP slot area I would suggest a PCI slot fan to blow air right onto your AGP card. You can get them for as little as 5$.

[LavCat]

I just ordered this Radeon 9800 Pro 128MB from NewEgg.com for $301.&nbsp; I'm also adding on a Thermaltake "Blue Orb" GPU cooler for $8.&nbsp;&nbsp; Just be sure you have the Power Supply to support all your stuff.&nbsp; A good 350W or 400W power supply is not all that spendy.&nbsp; I like the Allied ATX400P4 w/ Two Fans for $30.

Also, for any Graphics card, unless your case has a fan (or 2) that blows air over your PCI/AGP slot area I would suggest a PCI slot fan to blow air right onto your AGP card.&nbsp; You can get them for as little as 5$.

I looked at the newegg site as well as saphire. Nice price, considering what they want for the 9800XT!

Far be it from me to engage in rumor mongering, but I read tonight on theinquirer.net that the real 9600XT parts that just went into production are significantly higher performance than the ones on the boards that were pre-reviewed in the last two days. I guess we will see. I wish the GeForce could have waited a few more days to die.

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=12161

I am not worried about extra cooling for the 9600XT, but I might be for the 9800 Pro or XT. My cases have two intake fans, even if the filters are a bit caked with cat hair.

For the last thirteen years or so I have used nothing but PC Power&Cooling supplies. My last two have been custom.

[Caesar]

Being in the market for a new graphics card myself, I figure I'll throw in my two cents:

Sapphire Radeon 9600 Pro 128MB

At least, that's what all of my poking around at the various hardware review sites seem to indicate. Actually, most of them say to get a 9600 XT (especially if you were planning on getting Half Life 2 anyways) but not until the price drops down to <$150, which is what the 9600 Pro is at right now. So, if you need one right now, go Pro. But if you can wait, go for the XT. As far as I can tell, there isn't much difference in the performance. Or at least not enough to warrant an extra $50. Of course, this is all assuming you're in the market for a mid-range card, and not a high-end card. But since anything that would make really good use of a high-end card isn't on the market yet, I figure that's a safe assumption.

Here's some links you might find helpful:

AnandTech's October 2003 Video Card Price Guides
Specifically, the Mid-Range Guide.

HardOCP kind of agrees with me, although they think the 9600XT is must-have unless you already have a 9600 Pro, or something similar.

Tom's Hardware seems to sum up my position pretty well: "The performance increase between the Radeon 9600 XT and its predecessor, the 9600 Pro, is very small.

Well, I hope some of that helps. Back to lurking.

Cheers,
Caes

[Dozer]

The new numbers on the GFFX 5700 Ultra are putting it as the new best card in the $175 - $250 range, FYI :)

[ldw]

I'm not sure why more RAM would matter too much to DII?

Because it seems to want to load all acts, all dungeon maps, Griez's house-cat, Ormus' beard and the kitchen sink of the guy roasting the chicken in Horrogath and keep it all cached in memory.. once its all in memory the inter-act-waypoint-lag pretty much goes away.
Too bad Lister and his toadies still lock any computer for at least 1 second.

[ldw]

If you have the bucks the 9800 (not pro) seems to be a good deal. Should be around $200-250 USD I think.

Here's a review.
http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/ati_ra...iew/default.asp

My friend swears by it. I'm tempted to get one myself for my next upgrade.

[Caesar]

Thanks! I just saw that myself, actually, but I'm still awfully tempted by the promise of a free copy of HL2 with my 9600XT. And once the 9600XT really gets going the 9600 Pro prices should drop even further, so that might be another consideration. I haven't been terribly impressed with nVidia lately, aside from the numbers on the 5700. Their reliability has been suspect recently, from what I understand. I suppose I'll wait and see, as I'm planning on waiting until Uncle Sam gives me my money back at the beginning of next year to actually make a purchase. Anyways, thanks again for pointing that out! :-)

[kandrathe]

I've been seeing refurbished 9800 pro for $280. I bought Saphire Radeon 9800 pro 128 recently for $300. I just finished benchmarking/tweaking my new AMD 2800 XP Barton machine's performance. I'm getting ~5950 3Dmarks (1024x768) consistently without artifacts. The CPU is running 2.2 Ghz at 96F at idle and 113F under heavy load. The GPU runs about 10F hotter.

My old machine scored 97 3DMarks. For most games I was running FPS were in the 20 - 30 FPS range, and now this new one is getting 400-600 FPS.