The Matrix Retold

[Guest]

I think your missing the point that bothered me.

Embracing turmoil and confusion doesnt help you most times. "Clearing your head"/meditaion or what ever you call it is ussually the key to self awareness/zen/seeing the big picture.

Gennerally when confronted with radical ideas, or a deluge of new information the human psyc is overwhelmed. We make pur best effort to assemble it coherently, but often we dont quite put it together properly.

The best approach in these cases is ussually to step back and allow our subconsious to gain some perspective.
Then it is time to turn back around and use the tools of reason to rebuild a coherent understanding.

All to often people dig quickly into a new subject and the result is a forced and contrieved paradigm that only serves to leave them dissillusioned when it fails.



The odd point here is your example from your youth was probably a bit of of a "zen" exsperience and seems much more quite reasonable than your example at the end of the first post.

[Doc]

I respectfully disagree, and not for the sake of conflict or argument.

Chaos is indeed the defining element in which human beings are either made or broken. In war, "seeing the elephant" is often what changes folk, for better or worse. It takes crisis for things to fall apart. It takes, forgive the comment, shock and awe at times to get people's attention. What's that line about a body at rest...

People have to be battered to some degree at times before change even becomes a possibility. Psychologically or physically, something has to encourage them to move.

In tribal cultures, people would stay awake for days at a time on vision quests, receive grievious bodily injuries, loose a great deal of blood and hit a weakened state, take mind altering substances, or otherwise go though a jarring painful experience that usually made them become painfully aware of what it means to be human. It was usually after the fact, as they sorted out the bits that they came to achieve what ever level of awareness they aspired to. Hmm that's poorly worded, not sure how else to put it. Oh well.

Human beings resist change. We are creatures of habit and comfort. And we seldom do anything unless prompted by something that makes us uncomfortable. Reality is best served in cold hard not so easy to swallow doses. It's good for us to take our lumps. There is of course, a line of reason. Beyond that, well, I don't recommend that anybody be thrown over that line. I have PTSD. I have been beyond that line and then some. What's that line about everything in moderation?

Having the rug yanked out from under our feet is usually the best thing for us, as our brains work best and learn best when we do it on the fly. When thrown into water, most human beings learn to swim awful fast. That first moment that while we are children, we achieve a two legged stance. After a hard fall or two, and conking our skulls, we learn quickly to balance and it becomes hardwired. We learn that hot things burn and our bodies react with out the brain even thinking. And emotionally, when we get yanked around, in those moments we learn how to cope, adapt, or fall apart. The US military has this down to a science. New jarheads are purposely broken down and rebuilt. They live in an emotionally and physically unstable environment and in a very short period, they learn a great deal.

And so it was with Alice and Neo. Everything they had previously knew, well, it all had to be broken down and disposed of. Perception changed, and, their minds expanded a great deal in a very short period of time.

[Vandiablo]

Forget about going for a walk, take a tumble down the rabbit hole.

Naw, I prefer hobbit holes. The drinks there don't do mind altering things, and there's seed-cake... but watch out for the gold jewelry, it can alter your states of visibility.

[Doc]

Pervy Hobbit Fancier Van!

Falling down a "Hobbit Hole" indeed. Samwise will most likely have to kill you!

Altered states of visibility... Sounds like a new breed of external existentialism to me. How to become socially invisible? Why, that puts a whole new slant on things :lol: :D :P

[Guest]

You are are talking about breaking down the individuals psyc, by exploiting paradoxes, disunities and misconception of the individuals current perspecive so that they are forced to build a new and more valid paradigm of the worlds order. That is valid.(Simularly when you brain wash an idividual you hep them build an invalid world.)

But people rarely succeed in that by simply focusing on new ideas to the point of confusion.

If you dont have help building a new psyc(as in the Military), you you are better off taking some time and doing it right.



I have seen too many poor fellows get wound up and spend far too long in a lost confusion, after taking seemingly sage advice like yours.

[Occhidiangela]

They have just mutated a bit.

We have lost tribal sense, tradition, and right of passage to define what it means to grow... And live as human beings.

Who's "we," paleface? :D (Remember the old Lone Ranger and Tanto joke about being surrounded by Commanches?) Check out Rwanda and Former Yugoslavia. We are still dealing with tribalism at it finest and most barbaric. Check the Israel-Arab confrontation, and we see a fine display of tribalism. See the extreme attempts by the Latino/Hispanic community to redefine itself on a larger scale. Tribalism. See the white suburbanites hiding inside their encampments, their walled/gated mini-communities. Tribalism, a new form of Celtic hill forts.

I would also suggest that rites of passage still exist, but perhaps in different forms. However, I agree that the attempted pussification of society attempts to undermine rites of passage, for better or for worse.

There is almost nothing now that shocks us or awakes us into that awareness.

Really? I think you are overgeneralizing, but in truth, I will agree that it often takes quite a shake, quite a wake up call, to penetrate the tunnel vision of day to day life.

People go out and get body piercings and the like in an effort to recapture what little sense of tribal sense they might have.

They also join churches, clubs, and or social groups to hava a clan they can reach out and touch, something that a larger society does not afford. Piercing is just like long hair, love beads, spiked hair, tatoos, et al. "Hey, look at me, I am alive, I am here!"

The pain, the sweating, the tears, mostly the pain is a defining moment for them. In teenagers or even young adults, they look at it as some sort of right of passage or "taking it to the next level." This at one time used to be a vital part of the human experience.

Yes, and I guess that folks who play competitive sports, or who indulge in extremely challenging activities, such as rock climbing or extremely dangerous skiing or skateboarding stunts, have to dig deep. They still find what was found via traditional rites of passage.

However, modern day culture has labeled this as barbaric. We have so little to define or seperate us.

So "we" try to balkanize via ethnic groups, linguistic groups, musical preferences, religious groups, green-ness, what have you, in order to draw those very lines.

A lot of our emotional problems stem from this you know. A lot of us in modern society are repressed and sleeping, blissfully unaware, working away in some God awful factory or stuffed into a tiny little cubical. In a sense, we already live in a type of Matrix. And most of us are perfectly happy to be here. Some are not.

Some folks want to look deeper into life, and some are not interested in what they might find there, so yeah, I think you are on to something there. :D

[Doc]

Paleface?!?! Bad Rogue! First you hint that I am an old relic earlier in the thread, now this. I ought to pack up my teepee and leave. All this coming from Dances With Liches.

I was speaking mostly of developed first world countries, not war torn ravaged third world countries. Not enough of civilization there, to much civilization here.

Pussification? Nice word. I think that best applies to most sports now, like football. Rugby and hockey are still good gladitorial sports. I can remember footballed played with little to no pads and leather skullcaps. It was a bit sportier then. As for other sports, like rock climbing and the like, most of those folks are already on the right track. "Taste death, live life" is usually a good sign that somebody is on their way to recovery. But I don't consider activities like rock climbing and things of that nature to be sports. Not sure how to put it into words, but, calling it "sports" would be downgrading it, cheapening the experience. It is of a much higher calibre.

When I speak of tribal culture, I speak of a lot more then tribal unity and you know that Occhi. It's more then that. There is seperation as well. A fine line between boys and men, women and girls. Boys did not become men until they proved it in the only way that counts. There was a defining moment in a young man's (Or young girl's) life where they faced a test, or failed. And it was more then playing games with a bunch of other people... Like modern day football. It was often a personal private experience, faced alone. It was cruel, it was brutal, and the price for failure was high. It was not a simple matter of "It's not whether you win or loose, it's how you play the game" bullcrap, there was usually a whole lot more riding on it. You run the gauntlet so to speak, or you die. Die physically or in other ways. Either way... Being dead or being forced to wear women's clothing for the rest of your life was pretty much the same thing back then.

I am not saying we should go back to those times either. I am saying that people need to find some extreme way of testing themselves and finding out what they are made of. It is a vital part of the human experience. I don't think we should all take hooks and pierce our pectoral muscles and hang from the ceiling. But there should be something in our lives that sets us apart. We should not be so quick to mollycoddle our selves, become weak and spineless jellyfish, and forget what it means to be human.

After all. What good is a rabbit hole if we are all to chicken to peer down inside and dream of what lies below?

[Occhidiangela]

A year or so ago we discussed some of this elsewhere, and I think TR would argue that finding those who will, or have, gone through the process you describe is still a desirable thing, and is part of the search for the leaders, the ones worthy to lead, in any society. That such in depth inner questing should be encouraged I completely agree on, no question, you are correct. Those who won't take the journey tell us all something we need to know about their character. But what constitutes a valid quest? Good question, and one worth pondering.

Oh yeah, I figured you'd bust my chops over the paleface bit, yep yep yep, and of course you did. Done in fun, no disrespect intended, at all! Sadly, that's the only joke I know that has that great line in it, my apologies for my limited reportoire on that score. Dance with too many liches, I suppose, and maybe they sucked the memory from me and gave it to Tristram Shandy. :D

I like this line:

"become weak and spineless jellyfish"

Where I first heard that was during a very demanding and difficult training exercise, out in the wilds, from a real SoB.

It also has relationship to the Welsh term "bwil" or "bwl" as well as the Viet Namese term "Dau Tranh" and in a certain meaning, "jihad." In the last case, I refer to the inner struggle for mastery of one's self.

[Rhydderch Hael]

Who's "we," paleface?  :D  (Remember the old Lone Ranger and Tanto joke about being surrounded by Commanches?)

Tonto. Unless I'm mistaken, the good Mr. Reid never carried a Japanese heading knife... ;)

What's that Far Side comic say again? The Lone Ranger is looking up kemosabe in a dictionary and learns it means "Whiskey-addled git" or the like.

[Vandiablo]

What's that Far Side comic say again? The Lone Ranger is looking up kemosabe in a dictionary and learns it means "Whiskey-addled git" or the like.

It was more like "rear end of horse".

(Fitting, tho, doesn't "Tonto" mean "stupid one"?? *shrug* uh, i dunno)

[the Langolier]

Alice's story of discovery really should mirror your own. By reading the book, and actually digesting it, you can gain a good understanding of your self.

I don't think so. I think in numbers and patterns. Visual mathematician. Although I can understand where "changing perceptions/world" could be concluded, I would never get there. When I read about a girl eating pills and growing/shrinking, I think "cute story".

So, already I think I am handicapped in the journey down the hole of a rabbit that will lead me to a degree of self awareness.

[the Langolier]

I would like to say how much I disagree, but I'm not exactly sure what you've said. That is to say, I don't think you've said anything meangingful yet.

What is your goal here? To try to get us to find ourselves; to get us to think? That is interesting, considering all you've talked about in your posts have been the ideas of *others*. The subject is existentialism, and you mention Alice in wonderland and Ayn Rand. Majoring in psychology I'm sure you've been introduced to many many other works, ideas and authors. No thanks, I'd rather not be inspired to "find myself" and think for myself by someone who has paraphrased a century of other peoples ideas and calls them his own. (I'm not saying you think you came up with them, I'm saying you synthesized them and have your own understanding - but they are still other people's ideas).

Just to make sure I've made my point before I move on, despite the fact that you think you've fallen into some form of awareness, I still see you enslaved by life, albiet in a different way. I may or may not be blissfully unaware in my world of day to day living, TV, internet, and civil life, but you are blissfully unaware in your world of literature and philosophy. That having been said, let's move on, and get into what you actually believe for yourself.

In my simple, Western Traditions 202 understanding of this topic, existentialism is making the most out of our life, i.e. "life is what you make of it". Our existence can be as meaningful as we choose to make it.

>It told a story of what it means to exist, to become self aware, and how to view the universe for what it is.

>Hell, I stumbled around for a long time before I became self aware.

Although I could probably learn this myself in a semester, please share what being self-aware is. What exactly does it entail (forgive me if it is just another abstract idea of existentialism, we are supposed to be discussing what you personally think at this point)? What is the universe for what it really is? I ask because in my perception, they way you talk about it in your posts makes it sound like you have this understanding, so I would like to know what your understanding is.

>Most human beings go through life blissfully unaware of what it means to be human, especially in the modern age.

>We have lost tribal sense, tradition, and right of passage to define what it means to grow... And live as human beings.

>It was late one night, while laying on a bed of pine twigs, looking up at the stars and the moon that I suddenly became aware of what life was and my part in it. I had a belly full of trout and the smell of pine in my nose and a billion stars over head. Life was no longer a pointless struggle. Nor was it meaningless. Awareness is a scary thing actually. Life changed from that point on.

Again, I'm interested to know what exactly your realization about the meaning if life is and what it means to be human. I don't want to get into my beliefs or a religious debate, so I'll just say I know what the point of being human is. I know what we are doing on this planet, where we came from, and where we are going. What meaning did you find? What awareness did you achieve? Although I have been a little condescending, I am genuinely interested about your thoughts.

Here's where it gets fun:

>It is even hinted at, but only the most insane or the most gifted genius will realize that Alice never once changed size... Her perception of the universe shrank or expanded based on her perceptions of her self and how she fit into her surroundings. Neo does the same thing to some degree. When Neo flies, he does not move a single inch in case you have not figured it out.

...implying that you have. So, are you insane or a genius? I can't quite be sure which it is, but I think the last word in one of Ayn Rand's works fits nicely: EGO. Hang on... "I strongly suspect I know how the Matrix trilogy will end... I might be wrong, but I seriously doubt it. ".

>Contribute something of your own if you are some sort of rational being capable of any sort of higher thinking..

Maybe you need to expand your universe with some pills to see (or: "become self aware to") that this applies to you, IMO.

>When and if you ever go to college you will understand what those big scary words mean. [reffering to existentialism]

Indeed. Throw in a major of psychology and you will have your very own Doc clone!

>Having the rug yanked out from under our feet is usually the best thing for us... I am saying that people need to find some extreme way of testing themselves and finding out what they are made of.

Call it what you like, I call it High School (or public school in general).

I await your response; in the mean time I'll be practicing shooting fish with a bow and arrow.

[Nystul]

The self-awareness thing aside, if you really haven't read any of Lewis Carroll's works they may be well worth your time. Carroll was big on discrete mathematics and logic puzzles, so his work may be right up your alley. Of course, in Alice and Through the Looking Glass, this aspect of his writing mostly appears as funny little plays on words designed to get a chuckle in what are indeed cute stories.

'Come, we shall have some fun now!' thought Alice. 'I'm glad they've begun asking riddles.--I believe I can guess that,' she added aloud.

'Do you mean that you think you can find out the answer to it?' said the March Hare.

'Exactly so,' said Alice.

'Then you should say what you mean,' the March Hare went on.

'I do,' Alice hastily replied; 'at least--at least I mean what I say--that's the same thing, you know.'

'Not the same thing a bit!' said the Hatter. 'You might just as well say that "I see what I eat" is the same thing as "I eat what I see"!'

'You might just as well say,' added the March Hare, 'that "I like what I get" is the same thing as "I get what I like"!'

'You might just as well say,' added the Dormouse, who seemed to be talking in his sleep, 'that "I breathe when I sleep" is the same thing as "I sleep when I breathe"!'

'It is the same thing with you,' said the Hatter

(excerpt from Alice's Adventure's in Wonderland)

[Occhidiangela]

I know what we are doing on this planet, where we came from, and where we are going.

Really? Could you provide a few details? :D About 5 billion folks are interested in your answer.

A bit less flippantly, I really would like to hear you version of those points, and will at this point ask you if they equate to, or do not consider, "why we are here?" from the perspective of a human and humanity.

While in my early 20's, I stumbled upon an epihpany one evening while having a long chat with a dear friend of my sister's. In summary, it looks something like this.

_If there is a purpose to our existence, that purpose is to learn how to love_ .

Love here particularly includes giving of yourself to make something or someone else better, happier, etc. It's aim is the inverse of the combination of decay and entropy. As time has gone on, I have found that that idea fits a great many scenarios. Tied to that is my belief and understanding that "the journey" is every bit as important as "the destination," and sometimes, more important. How you got the "A" in Philosophy, for example, is more important than the grade itself. Was it via Cliff Notes, or was it via your own synthesis of learning? B)

While I am content with that concept, I am fully aware that it does not answer all of the philosophical questions that are implied in "why do we exist" nor does it address "does there need to be a 'why' to our existence."

It is also a bit soundbytish and reductionist, in truth.

[Guest]

Doc isnt really about anything.

He mish mashes several concepts and in the end recomends confusion, under the guise of enlightenment.

Its not the same.

He brings the spector of that evil child of the 60s - blissful ignorance. His ghost is hidden behind other peoples ideas.

[Occhidiangela]

And methinks you are making a few assumptions here. Not that uncommon, really, when many of us only know of each other what we share in this medium.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but blissful ignorance is hardly confined to the 1960's. It is alive and well today, just as alarmism and zealotry as substitutes to reasoned problem solving are as alive and well today as they were when "Reefer Madness" was first released.

[Doc]

Does a driver on the road not follow the signs to his destination? Other people or things point the way, ultimately the journey depends on us.

As for the answer of what I found that night, I can't say if it would be the answer you need as a person. It's different.

(BTW, Philosophy... Not psychology. I took some of that too, but, a different kind)

I am about everything. Or nothing. Does it matter? It is part of what I am. The only thing that brings about any sort of change in a system is the random element. Chaos. The wild card. The unknown. Since my discovery, I have gone through life and left a path of confusion and disorder in my wake. I am paradoxal down to my very core of being, a chaotic element that hates change. Am I genius or am I insane? Is there a difference? Does it matter? The problem with genius is they believe there is order and logic to the world. They are often to fixated or to lost to make the right kind of changes. Insane folks tend to spend a little to much time in asylums to make the world a better place. Me? I am a hermit living in a state of seclusion. I both love and despise technology. I love my computer and in the same breath I praise the fact that I make my own bread in a stove powered by wood. I make my own butter and cheese.

No, I can't tell you exactly what to look for, and, anybody that does is selling something, some sort of package deal mayhaps, one of those self help things that spoonfeeds you crap and makes the problem worse. I can point the way. I might even be able to make a guess to what you will find along the way. But at the end of the road is you, a person. A single entity. And nobody can tell you what that might be because nobody is you. Self help books are not the answer. They ask all the wrong questions and provide answers to questions best left unsaid. (Although there are no bad questions, there are plenty of bad answers hmm) No. The best thing to do is to find things that examine what self is. Atlas Shrugged is written the way it is for a reason. In that meaningless barrage of words is a great wisdom. It's kinda like staring at those 3D magic images. You stare and stare but it is not till you go out of focus that you "Get it." Atlas Shrugged should bore you to tears or drive you to distraction sending your mind other places while you read it. That scary place your mind goes when it has nothing better to do. If you are able to read the words, you need to step back out of focus. Ooops I let the cat out of the bag on that one. Hmmph. Oh well.

So you want to know what being self aware is? Why should I tell? You may never find the answer... Then again the answer might not be what is important. What might be important is that you try to find it, and, spend the rest of your life looking for it. What's that about the journey? Perhaps it is being aware that you are taking the journey... But that is up to you. In the end, after a life time of testing, tears, pain, joy, sorrow, love, laughter, and cheese danishes, in that moment just before you die, you will make the conclusion that you as a person needs. And you might look back and realize that you had it all along, that it was little more then Dumbo's Feather. Others might see where they missed it. Others might regret they never bothered looking for it. I don't have the answers. I can only offer advice that others offered me, freely passing it along. And one day, you might do the same.

Either way, I have done my job. I have planted a few seeds. Doubt perhaps. Questions. Mayhap ridicule and there could be many a lurker turning away, mayhap laughing and discrediting me. Hopefully though, one will be reached. I managed to provoke a good conversation out of Ghostiger though, I knew he had it in him. Occhi is already on the right path... Fun is where you find it. Others, I wont say.

[the Langolier]

>As for the answer of what I found that night, I can't say if it would be the answer you need as a person. It's different.

I didn't say I was looking for what I needed. I would like to know what your personal understanding is. What is the meaning of your life? I'm not looking for a self-help guide.

[the Langolier]

>Could you provide a few details? :D About 5 billion folks are interested in your answer.

I don't think that many are truely interested in the real purpose, most just want a quick fix.

>...if they equate to, or do not consider, "why we are here?" from the perspective of a human and humanity.

No, humans are idiots. We are incapable of determining truth. I am getting into truth because while there can be many answers to "why are we here?", how many can be true? Truth is defined as conformity to to fact or actuality, a statement proven to be or accepted as true. That is a nice definition and all, but it basically says truth = majority. Of all the scientific laws we have, not a single one has been proven as actual truth. Sure, hundreds of experiments have determined that it isn't false, but they can never be proven to be true. But, this fits in quite well with our definition of truth, so it must be true, right?. Well, it is a true as a human can know I guess. Truth is also defined as reality, actuality. Despite what man can prove (by not disproving) or accept as reality, it may or may not be so. Just looking at the world, I would say that man has a limitless capacity to fool himself.

>A bit less flippantly, I really would like to hear you version of those points

Partly why I didn't get into it before is because the purpose of life is based on many other principles that need to act as assumptions, such as that there is a Supreme being. In one, simple, non-inclusive statement the point of life is to become more like our God. There are so many facets to that fact though that they can't be stated without going through all the prerequisites first. I don't think I'll do it publicly, but if you think you are interested, I can PM. I don't think it a good idea, however, because it is too much at once. Also, it will only be fact as I know it without *any* proof at all. Even though it can be "proven", it takes references to such things as the bible, etc, which still won't be able to prove anything, because you would have to believe in them. Now, proof from people this day and age usually comes from the finding of people with creditials from various universities, and fancy titles like M.D., Ph.D., etc. The works I reference have no such "merit". The titles those people carry help us to believe what they have to say, but we still have to *believe* them, right? With the same token, you have to believe in the sources I would cite, but it does take a little bit more faith.

>_If there is a purpose to our existence, that purpose is to learn how to love_

That is actually very close. In fact, it really is dead on, it is just missing a few small parts that would answer the philosophical questions that it doesn't alone, i.e. "why".

>"does there need to be a 'why' to our existence."

He he. Man can, and will, debate about that forever. No matter what they are trying to prove to themselves, it doesn't change the fact that there IS a 'why'.

From what I gather, the purpose of life existentially is the journey of life itself. The road gives itself purpose. I find this somewhat lacking. If you drive from LA to NYNY, there are many routes you can take. Once you get to NYNY, you can look back on your route, and you may define yourself from it in a way. Furthermore, without a guide, it could take a quite awhile to get to NYNY, and the journey could be filled with wrong turns, dead ends, and more than one "scenic route". The path itself can't give meaning to itself though. Think of a radio tower with a large light on the top to warn aircraft. Saying the journey gives itself purpose is like saying that the tower exists to hold up the light, and the light exists to warn aircraft about the tower.

[Occhidiangela]

And its unique character, not its purpose.

Indeed, that concept fits in well with the framework under which you appear to work, as in "God presents us this journey, and the free will to choose salvation" and the paths are many, or the foot trails to the "best" or "True" path are many, and funnily enough most or all folks eventually find the "true" path (or not) in the end.

I once tried to encapsulate it all with a bit of a funny.

"Life is a bowl of cherries." Optimist.
"Life is tough, wear a helm." Realist
"Life is tough, then you die." Pessimist
"Life is too short to be miserable." Hedonist
"Life is the prequel to the Real Deal." Christian, Muslim, Hebrew, Hindu, etc, ad nauseum
"Life is whatever you make of it." The non religious PoV
"Life is a journey." The philosopher

"Life is." The Truth

PS/EDIT: Oh, I gotta agree with you on this one:

I would say that man has a limitless capacity to fool himself