patch 2.0.10 notes on the PTR

[Taelas]

I haven't insulted you yet. You either hadn't been reading my posts or making blanket assumptions based on what I haven't said.

No, I haven't.

Except...I've seen a resto druid and a retribution paladin tank and hold aggro in both five mans, heroics and most recently ot'd in a raid environment. Granted I've not seen a balance or a holy paladin tank in those situations but given how a well played hybrid has surprised me in the past I'm not going to dismiss them as easily as you. I've also seen retribution paladins keep up with me on the DPS meters in the 40 mans (have not raided with him in the new content yet).

Like I said, the ability to tank a 5-man instance is negligible. I can't comment on Heroic instances, as I haven't set foot in one yet. I can only say I would not go into one with a Restoration druid as the main tank, knowing just how weak a Restoration druid is as a tank.
Are you certain the druid wasn't a Feral/Restoration hybrid?

Pre-TBC, druids had 1.75 modifiers on Maul, which allowed well-geared Restoration druids to hold aggro, but we lost the modifier and got Mangle instead (and Lacerate a bit later), plus some increased damage thanks to gear upgrades. I honestly cannot see a Restoration druid holding aggro even off of healers after the nerf.

Assuming equal level gear, the Retribution spec is currently the weakest DPS spec of all classes. I've never seen a Retribution paladin on even top-15 in a 40-man raid on the DPS meter, and I've raided with a damn well skilled Retribution paladin. Of course, my raid group has always looked down on off-specs.

Does that prove that warriors were needed and or required as you asserted?

No.

I'm not assuming anything - I'm asking why a raid leader would voluntarily choose to bring a dps warrior over a protection specc'd paladin or a feral druid in a raid environment. I'm countering your arguments that feral druids/protection specc'd paladins should be better tank choices than a warrior.

Why? Higher DPS than the Feral druid.

I make no claims that I'm the best arms/warrior around. I've been in the end game instances such as BWL/AQ40 and Naxx and have seen cat druids keep pace with me. As to a feral druids healing being better as a restoration druid thats not really a valid comparsion is it? I'd tank better as a protection specc'd warrior wouldn't I? We're talking about what a feral druid brings to the raid not what he COULD bring if he was a different spec. Its extremely powerful to have a hybrid that can change gear between fights and assist the healing corps on tough fights. If you think I'm joking I only have to introduce you to Arshes, Mathom and Liska who have done a outstanding job of tanking, healing and DPS in raids.

A cat druid who keeps pace with you isn't spot healing, he isn't innervating, and he isn't rebirthing. He can't do those AND keep pace; it ain't happening--unless he plains out-damages you, which I'm NOT seeing as possible. As soon as he's forced to do any of that, his DPS drops.

Turning the question around, why would a raid leader bring a Feral druid if his tanking is less than/equal to the warriors', his DPS is less than the warriors' (a fact assuming his innervate, rebirths or healing is required at some point), and he would heal more as a Restoration druid and still provide both innervates and rebirths?

I don't agree with you about Wild and also don't feel like its even remotely useful to slow down buffing by limiting my raid to one druid buffer. YMMV.
I'll do so.

I know for a fact that the first buff I mind losing while raiding as a mage is Mark of the Wild. Power Word: Fortitude is far too much health to lose, Blessing of Kings is... well, "king", Power Word: Spirit increases my spelldamage, Arcane Intellect is essential, Blessing of Salvation is a must. Mark of the Wild is a negligible health/mana boost, a non-factoral armor bonus and a tiny resistance bonus (which is cancelled out as soon as I'm grouped with a paladin or buffed by a priest).

Only if you're short sighted and small minded enough to not realize the extraordinary power and flexibility that the true hybrids bring to a raid bringing us full circle back to my original argument. Please drive through.

Except each and every piece of extraordinary power and flexibility can be gotten in other, better ways. Replace the Feral druid with a rogue and the Protection paladin with a Holy paladin and push the Fury warriors forward to tank; voilá: More DPS, equal tanking and more healing.