01-30-2009, 02:09 PM
Two things:
1.) It's good to see that there is a pvp tournament taking place, it would increase the activity in D1. Here I like to point out the creators Shade (good job on the applications site), Emelaldo (good idea to post some vids) and FIT, whom I rarely agree with but seems to have made some constructive comments and helps spread the tournament to attract more people, hence again increasing the activity.
2.) About the increasing activity, it seems to have come so far that the communities from various countries start clashing (if I can put it that way as it is now). True, the polish community has once been one of the biggest. Now, once players from all four gateways start coming together, before you start throwing stones at each other, remember that we are some of the few people left playing this game. Without competition in the levels it would only be half as interesting to me, but with competition outside of it it might just get frustrating for everyone. So think about that.
kempes, interesting story about the pvp developments in your country. I would just like to say two things:
- Generally about pvp - Poland and the outside: Never forget that you're mostly playing within your own community. Also, never forget what that means for lag (location). And above all, before you enable your "let's bring it down to pure skill" idea, remember that your community is not anymore the largest. Also remember, that skill and respect go hand in hand for you to be recognized outside of your community.
Now I see you write about many years ago, how it was, and how it should've been and all that, but let me say that back then there were other players around, whom you might not even know about. The lack of mutual trust just hasn't allowed you to come in contact with them. So don't think that he who was or he who is "the best" dueler is really polish. Might be, might be not. That's the facts.
The way of pvp has changed so much and there have been many reasons for it - one is lag, other is perhaps the new vision of pvp that some players brought to everyones' attention - for example Antihero in 2000-2001 revolutionized the melee rogue into a rogue shooting arrows(bow rogue back in 2000 = huhh??). Lag has changed. Players have left. Think about these things guys, I know a few players from pol-1, I think I've played with model a couple of times too, I have nothing against your community personally, you have many skilled players and good sense of humour:). But you can't always stick within your community and play with the same rules, same items.
The way I see it now, a polish player will enter this tourney with the same items as the other polish players in the same tourney. Please don't do that. I am not participating myself in the tourney, but I can say that it would just ruin the whole thing. So, think about that, come to an agreement and make it all objective. Dueling was like that years ago. You use the items you found. Back then we took item saving seriously, most of us still do today. You use the items you found, no trades, no free items, you found them, equip them and you put your skill under test vs the other player. For old times' sake, don't use the same items on different players, just because they come from one community.
- About 0,2,4 or 8 pots in pvp:
I myself haven't dueled that long, I started in late 2003, inspired by the great german players Antihero and Shade. Quickly, I became to realize that the number of pots used in duel had to do with lag situations. In Deu-1 we always duelled with 8 pots, but duelling with 0 pots has also occured. It wasn't popular, but it also wasn't a problem, so to speak.
When german activity decreased in 2006, I checked the east gateway, in search of duke and astra-lynn, they would supposedly be the best ones there. Then I entered the channel Diablo LE and I remember there were quite some players there. My first duels in east were very interesting, I had never seen lag like that before, it was new to me. 8 pots was a must for the players there. And me, connecting from a different continent made 0 pots more or less nonsense. I tried with 4 pots, the duels didn't last very long. Lag spikes convinced one other player he could take a shot. After two seconds, the same thing happens with the other player, the game becomes agressive and duels didn't last long. Duels with lag of those proportions are usually fast and agressive (even with 8 pots).
So, before insisting that true skill is 0 pots (which I agree with in a virtual hamachi situation or "same-country" connections), think about the difference in locations that nowadays most people have because of the decreased activity.
That's all, I wish good luck to all players in the tournament, american, canadian, argentinian, japanese, german or polish. Nationality doesn't matter, creativity does. (sorry if I missed a nationality)
Hariel
1.) It's good to see that there is a pvp tournament taking place, it would increase the activity in D1. Here I like to point out the creators Shade (good job on the applications site), Emelaldo (good idea to post some vids) and FIT, whom I rarely agree with but seems to have made some constructive comments and helps spread the tournament to attract more people, hence again increasing the activity.
2.) About the increasing activity, it seems to have come so far that the communities from various countries start clashing (if I can put it that way as it is now). True, the polish community has once been one of the biggest. Now, once players from all four gateways start coming together, before you start throwing stones at each other, remember that we are some of the few people left playing this game. Without competition in the levels it would only be half as interesting to me, but with competition outside of it it might just get frustrating for everyone. So think about that.
Quote:8 vs 0 pots:
Now the thing about using 8 pots was not really about the "drinking extra pots" or whatever you call this kind of cheating. When you play 0 pots the problem still exists.
In Poland we used to play 8 pots till 2000-2001 then it was 4 pots, then 2 pots in 2002 and later on we switched to 0 pots although warrior vs sorc was 2-4 pots for a bit longer due to the sorc>warrior imbalance. The main reason was the length of the duel - after discovering the phasing+fb bug (not sure if it really is a bug maybe that was blizzards intention) back in ~1999 (we call them "homing fb's") and revealing it to the masses later on game style changed to more defensive due to being more efficient and (mana) cost-effective - phasing costs 4 mana instead of 15 (teleport) and it doesn't require you to target it while you still can target your homing fb which makes it easier to dodge fb's. The duels became waaaaay too long and thats why we decided to play 0 pots finally - a Best Of 5, 0 pots duel beetween 2 high (skill) level sorcerors = ~15-20 minutes anyway.
The homing fb works with other spells as well because its actually homing a spell with another one - a targeting bug. It works with arrows as well - thats why rogue involving duels reduced the pots to 0 as well.
And the homing fb was just the beginning of a revolution in dueling, a begining of a new chapter in which a lot of other bugs/tricks/tactics were discovered.
Warriors had the vertical line bug anyways so they also agreed to 0 pots. And the sorcerors with over a 1000 mana with 1/3 dmg reduction (MS) benefited more with every extra pot. Oh, and warriors also changed their configs from dragons/zodiac to dragonsons and ruby whale which gave them a bit of an edge.
The last thing is warrior vs warrior - the style changed to pure steel due to being more skillfull (not really my opinion - i think playing with elemental dmg requires different type of skill and just is a bit more luck based). WvW became a bit like chess - a 0 pot BO5 could even last more than an hour - trying to keep them longer was absurd.
Poland which was and probably still is the biggest diablo 1 community in the world - we never really tried to cooperate with other communities - there wwere more than enough of us ;p. And whenever we tried dueling foreigners even on their rules we just raped them. Im not trying to offend you or anyone else - its just the thing that the more people there are (and our scene was strictly about dueling, tournaments and clan war) the more solutions/tactics you can find and the more expirience you can get.
Too bad POL-1 accepted duped items (the "lets bring it down to pure skill" way of thinking) - whenever we tried to explain something about dueling, foreign communities just replied "stfu u dupe omg!!!1!1!!11".
I havent read the whole thread but a few thing hit me:
Warrior isnt the strongest dueling class, in fact it is the weakest one, especially with your rules - allowing fast block, hit recovery, high ac in any match-up makes sorc even more imbalanced than he is without them.
WvW WvR duels with using spells is just f***ng dumb. If i had the oportunity i wouldnt use them anyway - its too easy to get stunned (or however you call that) while casting and even easier to escape from the spell due to the horizontal line bug.
Not allowing item changes is even more stupid especially if you allow elemental dmg in WvW. Playing with elemental dmg - basically 3 equipment configs - spark, schaefers and lsoh works like paper rock scissors - one config beats the other one. So it will come down to disscussing/switching equipment for an hour before the game and then eventually when both players will most likely agree to use the same one it will come down to pure luck - the one whose spark/schaef/lsoh will be more lucky to deal higher total damage from the 1-10 or whatever elemental hits will win. "Skilless" and stupid.
I could show you a lot more but its pointless.
Im not going to convince you to change the rules, but I hopefully a few Polish people participating in the tournament will make you think about that.
Oh, one last thing:
" didnt even touch on same class duels, but eh, these arent nearly as exciting as interclass pvp anyway."
You couldnt be more wrong. Same class duels are the most exciting ones. Try one day - thats a "must-do" ;]
Sorry for any mistakes - my english isnt perfect ;p
kempes, interesting story about the pvp developments in your country. I would just like to say two things:
- Generally about pvp - Poland and the outside: Never forget that you're mostly playing within your own community. Also, never forget what that means for lag (location). And above all, before you enable your "let's bring it down to pure skill" idea, remember that your community is not anymore the largest. Also remember, that skill and respect go hand in hand for you to be recognized outside of your community.
Now I see you write about many years ago, how it was, and how it should've been and all that, but let me say that back then there were other players around, whom you might not even know about. The lack of mutual trust just hasn't allowed you to come in contact with them. So don't think that he who was or he who is "the best" dueler is really polish. Might be, might be not. That's the facts.
The way of pvp has changed so much and there have been many reasons for it - one is lag, other is perhaps the new vision of pvp that some players brought to everyones' attention - for example Antihero in 2000-2001 revolutionized the melee rogue into a rogue shooting arrows(bow rogue back in 2000 = huhh??). Lag has changed. Players have left. Think about these things guys, I know a few players from pol-1, I think I've played with model a couple of times too, I have nothing against your community personally, you have many skilled players and good sense of humour:). But you can't always stick within your community and play with the same rules, same items.
The way I see it now, a polish player will enter this tourney with the same items as the other polish players in the same tourney. Please don't do that. I am not participating myself in the tourney, but I can say that it would just ruin the whole thing. So, think about that, come to an agreement and make it all objective. Dueling was like that years ago. You use the items you found. Back then we took item saving seriously, most of us still do today. You use the items you found, no trades, no free items, you found them, equip them and you put your skill under test vs the other player. For old times' sake, don't use the same items on different players, just because they come from one community.
- About 0,2,4 or 8 pots in pvp:
I myself haven't dueled that long, I started in late 2003, inspired by the great german players Antihero and Shade. Quickly, I became to realize that the number of pots used in duel had to do with lag situations. In Deu-1 we always duelled with 8 pots, but duelling with 0 pots has also occured. It wasn't popular, but it also wasn't a problem, so to speak.
When german activity decreased in 2006, I checked the east gateway, in search of duke and astra-lynn, they would supposedly be the best ones there. Then I entered the channel Diablo LE and I remember there were quite some players there. My first duels in east were very interesting, I had never seen lag like that before, it was new to me. 8 pots was a must for the players there. And me, connecting from a different continent made 0 pots more or less nonsense. I tried with 4 pots, the duels didn't last very long. Lag spikes convinced one other player he could take a shot. After two seconds, the same thing happens with the other player, the game becomes agressive and duels didn't last long. Duels with lag of those proportions are usually fast and agressive (even with 8 pots).
So, before insisting that true skill is 0 pots (which I agree with in a virtual hamachi situation or "same-country" connections), think about the difference in locations that nowadays most people have because of the decreased activity.
That's all, I wish good luck to all players in the tournament, american, canadian, argentinian, japanese, german or polish. Nationality doesn't matter, creativity does. (sorry if I missed a nationality)
Hariel
Inspiration is the key.