05-13-2005, 07:11 PM
As our guild has started into MC and geared up for Onyxia, we've run into some differing understandings of the 8-debuff limit and the strategy that a raid group should use to manage it. I'm interested in what everybody here might know, so I thought I'd post my understanding and ask for comments. Here goes:
Background
The issue arose when we moved into MC. The raid leader gave two directives, which were difficult if not impossible to comply with:
1) Nobody was to use DoTs on any MC mobs, and
2) Only the MT and two warlocks would apply debuffs: Sunder Armor for the MT and CoShadows/CoElements for the warlocks.
Obviously, there are many character builds that have DoTs and/or stacking debuffs that apply with every attack: mages with fireball DoTs; warriors with Rend/Deep Wounds; Rogues with poisons, Hemmorrhage, and Rupture; and shadow priests with Shadow Vulnerability just to name a few.
Previous raids (i.e. UBRS) had no protocol for DoTs and debuffs, except for generally attempting to stack things that had synergies (Curse of Shadows for the shadow priests and warlocks, for example). Since the damage output of a 15-member team is more than enough to get through UBRS there had been no need for a lot of discipline.
When we got to MC, some of the tanks had real difficulties holding aggro, especially on bosses like Lucifron and Magmadar. Even on trash mobs, the raid leader dictated no DoTs or debuffs so that "...sunder armor stays on the mob, because if it comes off the MT will lose aggro." :blink:
Astute readers will have figured out my thoughts on this by now... /boggle.
My Model
From what I've read and what I've seen in game, the following hold true:
1) Aggro (or hate) is separate and distinct from the debuffs applied to the mob. Players generate hate by doing damage or applying threatening debuffs, and once they are on the hate list they stay there. The only exception to this would be classes with the ability to disengage from combat like hunters (Feign Death or Disengage) and rogues (Vanish). Hate is generally proportional to damage caused, but some specific skills and talents generate hate disproportionately.
2) While debuffs may generate hate, wiping the debuff does not cause the hate to be removed. I think of this as "non-forgiveness": if you just laid a walloping big hit on the mob, or stacked another Sunder Armor, the mob increased its hatred of you accordingly. Just because that debuff went away doesn't mean the mob's forgotten or forgiven you for it. So the hate list is in effect a write-only list.
3) Debuffs are only used by the game for evaluating incoming damage to the mob, evaluating damage dealt by the mob, or modifying mob behaviour. For example, a mob with debuffed armor will be more susceptible to physical damage, or a mob afflicted by Silence or Counterspell will be unable to cast and will be forced to melee.
4) The debuff list seems to be strictly first-come first-served - a FIFO queue in geekspeak. Newer debuffs seem to push off the oldest debuffs first, although it may be that the debuffs closest to expiration are chosen -- I'd need to test thoroughly to be sure. I certainly don't think it's random.
5) Debuffs will allow a newer debuff of a lesser rank to overwrite an existing debuff -- unlike player buffs, where a player attempting to overwrite an existing stronger buff will be told that "A more powerful spell is already active." I haven't tested this.
6) Channelled debuffs (Drain Soul, Mind Flay, Drain Life) are never overwritten.
Implications
If the above are correct, the following follow:
1) Wiping a debuff used by a tank to gain aggro will not "... cause the tank to lose aggro." :blink: That doesn't mean that the damage generated while wiping that debuff won't draw aggro, but in that case the tank's loss of aggro is simply a function of him falling behind on the hate list.
2) In an all-out effort to max team DPS, an individual player is best to try for front-loaded damage, since any DoT or back-ended curse (e.g. Curse of Doom) is likely to be pushed off the debuff list before it procs for significant damage. Channelled attacks are second best; DoT is least preferred.
3) If you're looking to max team DPS, it's probably best for people to hold back on debuffs as much as reasonably possible so that a few designated debuffers can keep their debuffs on the target. It seems that the best candidates are Sunder Armor (which should be applied by the MT to help generate more aggro), Curse of Shadows and Curse of Elements (assuming you have 2 warlocks), and mybe Shadow Vulnerability (since you get that for free if there's a shadow priest nuking). There're probably other debufs which ought to be on this list that I'm forgetting.
4) Given that most debuffs can be reapplied fairly quickly, there's no need for players to respec and remove any passive debuffs that are automatically applied on attack.
Questions
I've really only got two questions:
1) How does the above compare to your understanding of the hate list and the debuff slots? Have you observed anything different? Is there linkage between the two?
2) What strategies have you seen used for allocating the debuff slots? What's your favourite?
Any additional comments are welcome, of course. :)
Thanks,
Kv
Background
The issue arose when we moved into MC. The raid leader gave two directives, which were difficult if not impossible to comply with:
1) Nobody was to use DoTs on any MC mobs, and
2) Only the MT and two warlocks would apply debuffs: Sunder Armor for the MT and CoShadows/CoElements for the warlocks.
Obviously, there are many character builds that have DoTs and/or stacking debuffs that apply with every attack: mages with fireball DoTs; warriors with Rend/Deep Wounds; Rogues with poisons, Hemmorrhage, and Rupture; and shadow priests with Shadow Vulnerability just to name a few.
Previous raids (i.e. UBRS) had no protocol for DoTs and debuffs, except for generally attempting to stack things that had synergies (Curse of Shadows for the shadow priests and warlocks, for example). Since the damage output of a 15-member team is more than enough to get through UBRS there had been no need for a lot of discipline.
When we got to MC, some of the tanks had real difficulties holding aggro, especially on bosses like Lucifron and Magmadar. Even on trash mobs, the raid leader dictated no DoTs or debuffs so that "...sunder armor stays on the mob, because if it comes off the MT will lose aggro." :blink:
Astute readers will have figured out my thoughts on this by now... /boggle.
My Model
From what I've read and what I've seen in game, the following hold true:
1) Aggro (or hate) is separate and distinct from the debuffs applied to the mob. Players generate hate by doing damage or applying threatening debuffs, and once they are on the hate list they stay there. The only exception to this would be classes with the ability to disengage from combat like hunters (Feign Death or Disengage) and rogues (Vanish). Hate is generally proportional to damage caused, but some specific skills and talents generate hate disproportionately.
2) While debuffs may generate hate, wiping the debuff does not cause the hate to be removed. I think of this as "non-forgiveness": if you just laid a walloping big hit on the mob, or stacked another Sunder Armor, the mob increased its hatred of you accordingly. Just because that debuff went away doesn't mean the mob's forgotten or forgiven you for it. So the hate list is in effect a write-only list.
3) Debuffs are only used by the game for evaluating incoming damage to the mob, evaluating damage dealt by the mob, or modifying mob behaviour. For example, a mob with debuffed armor will be more susceptible to physical damage, or a mob afflicted by Silence or Counterspell will be unable to cast and will be forced to melee.
4) The debuff list seems to be strictly first-come first-served - a FIFO queue in geekspeak. Newer debuffs seem to push off the oldest debuffs first, although it may be that the debuffs closest to expiration are chosen -- I'd need to test thoroughly to be sure. I certainly don't think it's random.
5) Debuffs will allow a newer debuff of a lesser rank to overwrite an existing debuff -- unlike player buffs, where a player attempting to overwrite an existing stronger buff will be told that "A more powerful spell is already active." I haven't tested this.
6) Channelled debuffs (Drain Soul, Mind Flay, Drain Life) are never overwritten.
Implications
If the above are correct, the following follow:
1) Wiping a debuff used by a tank to gain aggro will not "... cause the tank to lose aggro." :blink: That doesn't mean that the damage generated while wiping that debuff won't draw aggro, but in that case the tank's loss of aggro is simply a function of him falling behind on the hate list.
2) In an all-out effort to max team DPS, an individual player is best to try for front-loaded damage, since any DoT or back-ended curse (e.g. Curse of Doom) is likely to be pushed off the debuff list before it procs for significant damage. Channelled attacks are second best; DoT is least preferred.
3) If you're looking to max team DPS, it's probably best for people to hold back on debuffs as much as reasonably possible so that a few designated debuffers can keep their debuffs on the target. It seems that the best candidates are Sunder Armor (which should be applied by the MT to help generate more aggro), Curse of Shadows and Curse of Elements (assuming you have 2 warlocks), and mybe Shadow Vulnerability (since you get that for free if there's a shadow priest nuking). There're probably other debufs which ought to be on this list that I'm forgetting.
4) Given that most debuffs can be reapplied fairly quickly, there's no need for players to respec and remove any passive debuffs that are automatically applied on attack.
Questions
I've really only got two questions:
1) How does the above compare to your understanding of the hate list and the debuff slots? Have you observed anything different? Is there linkage between the two?
2) What strategies have you seen used for allocating the debuff slots? What's your favourite?
Any additional comments are welcome, of course. :)
Thanks,
Kv