02-15-2005, 03:36 PM
If you're a caster class, you probably know all about the five second rule by now. It simply stops your mana regeneration when you're casting and for five seconds after your last cast of a spell. It was implemented fairly late in the beta to stop the abuse that was occuring - Priests with high enough spirit were able to engage in long battles without ever running out of mana. Combined with the removal of drinking in combat, the high-level instance game was greatly altered for casters. They had to pay a lot more attention to mana usage than in the past, and emphasis started moving off of spirit in favor of intelligence at that time. I remember the inital reaction - that bosses like Archadeus in Uldaman would be impossible - until people adjusted their strategies to promote mana conservation.
However, I'm noticing a small - really small - movement back to spirit again. This is coming mostly from players who have been level 60 for quite some time and engage in a regular basis on raids for the Molten Core and Onyxia. We've seen MongoJerry and Lissa go at it on these boards in the subject of int vs. spirit for Priests. Priests do have a talent that allows for 15% of the normal mana regeneration rate to work while in the five second rule. However, the question is, is that enough regen to be worth it? Which is better, spending the 30 points in Discipline talents to max that out, or saving those points for the Holy tree if you want to be a "pure healer"?
This is something I'm toying with myself - my level 50 Priestess on Stormrage just respec'ed to be fully Discipline based (31 talent points) with the other 20 in Holy (eventually). I'm trying out the spirit-emphasis build.
What I expected is that I'd take a hit in my effectiveness. For solo and short-term battles, this is true. However, I've never used a solo-friendly build, eschewing shadow talents for holy/disc talents. What I gave up was the handy Spirit Tap (double mana regen after landing a killing blow, and 50% mana regen under this effect if under the five second rule - for 15 seconds) for soloing, so I solo a little slower now. However, for long battles, the mana regen and higher spirit is helping me out a good deal.
Last night I took on the Divino-matic Rod quest in Zul'Farrak. For those unaware, this is a brutal quest that involves defending a group of prisoners against an incredible gaggle of trolls (about a hundred) that keep coming in waves. The battle can take a long, long time. I found my spirit and mana regeneration while in combat to be helpful in this fight. Over the course of the battle, my 15% regen (about 10-11 mana per tick) added up to hundreds of extra mana to work with, alongside my higher regen when not casting from my Divine Spirit (a talent-based spirit buff, the "uber" spell of the Discipline tree).
The problem many people have is that long-winded battles like this are too few and far between. Fights tend to end too quickly for additional regen to matter in terms of immediate survival. I haven't been to raid instances yet, but I've seen videos of Onyxia fights and how they can run a course of an hour plus. Being unable to drink in combat, regen becomes so critical. A Priest is only useful if a Priest has mana - unlike the other caster classes, who can choose to stop casting spells, if a Priest stops casting spells, people die. This puts extreme pressure on Priests to maximize their ability to cast spells. Thus the huge debate on Intelligence (ability to cast more spells in a short time frame) vs Spirit (ability to cast more spells in a long time frame).
But what about Mages? With Mages, intelligence is clearly the primary stat. Mages are about burst damage, especially when soloing - with no real ability to heal themselves, Mages must kill fast or die. But in groups, things change a bit. For starters, Mages cannot just blow everything away at first glance - they have to learn to hold off and wait for aggro to be built up on tanks. Also, Mages need to have situational mana for Polymorph and Frost Nova protection.
I've seen some level 60 Mage players telling their brethren to keep Spirit in mind, because it can greatly reduce the aggregrate downtime that plagues the class. No, it won't prevent you from having to drink, but it will decrease the time you're sitting around drinking *over the long haul*.
The reason Spirit is so widely dissed, I believe, is because its effects are much harder to quantify than the other stats. Spirit's benefits can only be measured over a period of time - over the course of many fights and its correspondent reduction of total downtime, or over the course of a single long fight where managing the five second rule allows a caster to stay in the fight longer and not become a spectator. It's very easy to say to load up on Int items because the extra few hundred mana lets you cast more spells. An increase of mana regen of 5-10 points a tick seems minor and pointless by comparison. But over the long course of time, and especially for super-long fights in raid instances, my belief is that spirit is a vital stat for casters and does not deserve the negative karma it gets.
One thing I think needs to go is the soft cap on Spirit. The stat has a cap where diminishing returns start kicking in, and with the five second rule in place I believe it is unnecessary. Current thought is that the cap is around 300 Spirit, which is obtainable by level 60s with decent equipment.
As I play longer with my Discipline based spirit-heavy build, I will look to update this thread with my findings. Your thoughts?
-Bolty
However, I'm noticing a small - really small - movement back to spirit again. This is coming mostly from players who have been level 60 for quite some time and engage in a regular basis on raids for the Molten Core and Onyxia. We've seen MongoJerry and Lissa go at it on these boards in the subject of int vs. spirit for Priests. Priests do have a talent that allows for 15% of the normal mana regeneration rate to work while in the five second rule. However, the question is, is that enough regen to be worth it? Which is better, spending the 30 points in Discipline talents to max that out, or saving those points for the Holy tree if you want to be a "pure healer"?
This is something I'm toying with myself - my level 50 Priestess on Stormrage just respec'ed to be fully Discipline based (31 talent points) with the other 20 in Holy (eventually). I'm trying out the spirit-emphasis build.
What I expected is that I'd take a hit in my effectiveness. For solo and short-term battles, this is true. However, I've never used a solo-friendly build, eschewing shadow talents for holy/disc talents. What I gave up was the handy Spirit Tap (double mana regen after landing a killing blow, and 50% mana regen under this effect if under the five second rule - for 15 seconds) for soloing, so I solo a little slower now. However, for long battles, the mana regen and higher spirit is helping me out a good deal.
Last night I took on the Divino-matic Rod quest in Zul'Farrak. For those unaware, this is a brutal quest that involves defending a group of prisoners against an incredible gaggle of trolls (about a hundred) that keep coming in waves. The battle can take a long, long time. I found my spirit and mana regeneration while in combat to be helpful in this fight. Over the course of the battle, my 15% regen (about 10-11 mana per tick) added up to hundreds of extra mana to work with, alongside my higher regen when not casting from my Divine Spirit (a talent-based spirit buff, the "uber" spell of the Discipline tree).
The problem many people have is that long-winded battles like this are too few and far between. Fights tend to end too quickly for additional regen to matter in terms of immediate survival. I haven't been to raid instances yet, but I've seen videos of Onyxia fights and how they can run a course of an hour plus. Being unable to drink in combat, regen becomes so critical. A Priest is only useful if a Priest has mana - unlike the other caster classes, who can choose to stop casting spells, if a Priest stops casting spells, people die. This puts extreme pressure on Priests to maximize their ability to cast spells. Thus the huge debate on Intelligence (ability to cast more spells in a short time frame) vs Spirit (ability to cast more spells in a long time frame).
But what about Mages? With Mages, intelligence is clearly the primary stat. Mages are about burst damage, especially when soloing - with no real ability to heal themselves, Mages must kill fast or die. But in groups, things change a bit. For starters, Mages cannot just blow everything away at first glance - they have to learn to hold off and wait for aggro to be built up on tanks. Also, Mages need to have situational mana for Polymorph and Frost Nova protection.
I've seen some level 60 Mage players telling their brethren to keep Spirit in mind, because it can greatly reduce the aggregrate downtime that plagues the class. No, it won't prevent you from having to drink, but it will decrease the time you're sitting around drinking *over the long haul*.
The reason Spirit is so widely dissed, I believe, is because its effects are much harder to quantify than the other stats. Spirit's benefits can only be measured over a period of time - over the course of many fights and its correspondent reduction of total downtime, or over the course of a single long fight where managing the five second rule allows a caster to stay in the fight longer and not become a spectator. It's very easy to say to load up on Int items because the extra few hundred mana lets you cast more spells. An increase of mana regen of 5-10 points a tick seems minor and pointless by comparison. But over the long course of time, and especially for super-long fights in raid instances, my belief is that spirit is a vital stat for casters and does not deserve the negative karma it gets.
One thing I think needs to go is the soft cap on Spirit. The stat has a cap where diminishing returns start kicking in, and with the five second rule in place I believe it is unnecessary. Current thought is that the cap is around 300 Spirit, which is obtainable by level 60s with decent equipment.
As I play longer with my Discipline based spirit-heavy build, I will look to update this thread with my findings. Your thoughts?
-Bolty
Quote:Considering the mods here are generally liberals who seem to have a soft spot for fascism and white supremacy (despite them saying otherwise), me being perma-banned at some point is probably not out of the question.